Anyone clued up on employment law?
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Congratulations on your new job - sounds like its a dream come true.
With the benefit of hindsight you should have waited till you had a start date from the new job before you told anyone about it. Your new place of employment would understand that you have to give notice to your current employer before you can start with them.
If you haven't given your notice then you haven't "officially" said you are leaving. Just like I can say I might be leaving Sky TV for cable - unless it is in writing then there is no notice. As a result of this they can't push you out the door. If they do I would take them to tribunal.
They can however bring someone in to shadow you in the job till you are ready to move on (its good for them and the new employee that there is a handover period).0 -
i have a similar story. I come to work every day and find that i have an issue at work. an issue that just keeps bugging me until eventually i am unhappy at my job. So i mention to a coworker that i cant deal with it anymore, nothing is going to change to fix it so i am going to look for other employment. (mistake #1) i then told a few other coworkers how unhappy i was because of this issue. (mistake #2) well i hadn't applied to any jobs but i did start to look around and i get cornered one day by the owner of the company's personal assistant asking me if this rumor was true as she heard a rumor that i was looking for other work. I didn't lie (mistake #3) and told her yes. she reported it to H.R. because she and alot of people here didn't want to see me leave.
Infact the individual who told the assistant told her because he didn't want to see me leave. H.R. talks to me and said that the owner and him have talked and they dont want to see me go and they are trying to deal with the issue. I then talked to the owner and he is trying to fix the issue and has offered me another position inside the company to keep me around.
My company could have easily fired me for mentioning i was looking for future employment. instead they choose to see how to keep me. That does one of two things, shows the integrity of the company and also shows me how much they think and believe in me.
I hope your story works out as well as mine has so far. i will tell you this though. its always a mistake to tell your employer that you are looking unless your employer is very cool like that. it sounds like yours isn't.0 -
You should have asked for advice before you announced you were leaving. I would have told you to say nothing until you had your start date, and, even then, give them only 2 weeks notice until your last day. I don't care what your relationship is with your current employer -- how much notice would they give you if there was a layoff?
There is really no advice to give at this point. You already dealt the cards. What may be even worse is that, you don't get the job for some reason, but your current employer knows you have been looking. What happens if you stay and an opportunity comes up at you current employer and you and Susie both apply. Know one knows if Susie is unhappy at work, but your employer knows you have already been aout there looking.
Unless you are in a Union, most companys are "at will" employers and can let you go at any time.
Have you actually read any of this thread?
1. Both myself and my employer have to give 4 weeks notice if my contract comes to an end for whatever reason.
2. I have the job, I have a signed contract for the job with pay etc on it, but a start date of 'TBC'.
3. I'm from the UK. 'At will' does not exist here.0 -
i have a similar story. I come to work every day and find that i have an issue at work. an issue that just keeps bugging me until eventually i am unhappy at my job. So i mention to a coworker that i cant deal with it anymore, nothing is going to change to fix it so i am going to look for other employment. (mistake #1) i then told a few other coworkers how unhappy i was because of this issue. (mistake #2) well i hadn't applied to any jobs but i did start to look around and i get cornered one day by the owner of the company's personal assistant asking me if this rumor was true as she heard a rumor that i was looking for other work. I didn't lie (mistake #3) and told her yes. she reported it to H.R. because she and alot of people here didn't want to see me leave.
Infact the individual who told the assistant told her because he didn't want to see me leave. H.R. talks to me and said that the owner and him have talked and they dont want to see me go and they are trying to deal with the issue. I then talked to the owner and he is trying to fix the issue and has offered me another position inside the company to keep me around.
My company could have easily fired me for mentioning i was looking for future employment. instead they choose to see how to keep me. That does one of two things, shows the integrity of the company and also shows me how much they think and believe in me.
I hope your story works out as well as mine has so far. i will tell you this though. its always a mistake to tell your employer that you are looking unless your employer is very cool like that. it sounds like yours isn't.
Glad to hear it all worked out for you! No, it doesn't sound like mine will do that. :laugh:0 -
I'd probably be tempted to say I'd had a change of heart & I wasn't going. The thing is if there isn't even an actual job yet at the other company, & this could be the case for 1-6mths do you really want your employer snapping at your heels that long. Try and get a firmer answer of the new company. If you can't then I'd probably back peddle, & work out my notice when I actually had a leaving date.
Obviously, it's not great & they will be less than impressed, but chances are they already feel like your messing them about. I know you told them with the intention of being upfront, but they aren't seeing it that way. However, if you need a reference from them it changes things.0 -
I don't know about in England, but most states in the US are at-will employment states and they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all (except a very few, specific things like age, gender, religion or race).
Lesson learned is DO NOT give any kind of notice until you know when you're leaving and a standard two weeks' notice is all you need to give them.
Sorry -- didn't see that your contract requires four weeks' notice. Anyway. that would be what I would have given them once I had a start date for the new job. You went above and beyond, but it might bite you in the end. Good luck!0 -
I'd probably be tempted to say I'd had a change of heart & I wasn't going. The thing is if there isn't even an actual job yet at the other company, & this could be the case for 1-6mths do you really want your employer snapping at your heels that long. Try and get a firmer answer of the new company. If you can't then I'd probably back peddle, & work out my notice when I actually had a leaving date.
Obviously, it's not great & they will be less than impressed, but chances are they already feel like your messing them about. I know you told them with the intention of being upfront, but they aren't seeing it that way. However, if you need a reference from them it changes things.
Ah, reference wouldn't be a problem, my line manager would provide that.
My partner said that to me this morning; that I should just tell them it's fallen through, keep my head down and when they give me a start date, work my 4 weeks notice and leave. I'd feel bad doing that because that's an outright lie, but being honest hasn't done me any favours so far.0 -
I don't know about in England, but most states in the US are at-will employment states and they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all (except a very few, specific things like age, gender, religion or race).
Lesson learned is DO NOT give any kind of notice until you know when you're leaving and a standard two weeks' notice is all you need to give them.
Sorry -- didn't see that your contract requires four weeks' notice. Anyway. that would be what I would have given them once I had a start date for the new job. You went above and beyond, but it might bite you in the end. Good luck!
Yeah our employment law is a little different here, they certainly have to have a reason and it needs to be done formally, but I don't know whether what I've done interferes with that!
Lesson has most certainly be learnt, I will not be saying a word in future!
Thanks rml.0 -
Not to be argumentative or anything but you have already told us your current employer is already chomping at the bit to find someone to replace you because they dont want to be caught without someone who can fulfill that position. So they are probably going to hire someone whether you give them a date, a formal notice, whatever, or not. Once that happens they will have you train them and once that person is able to do your job you are kind of in limbo (as you said they are not going to pay 2 people to do 1 job). They might move you around to fill in for people who are out sick or on vacation.
I dont know what TUPE means. I am not sure why you are so torn up about not doing the training or what value it is to you since you are leaving the position some time soon. I cant imagine that providing any further training is in the interest of your employer. You just got done telling us that your position is vital to production but then you dont realize that your spending a half day at training is no big deal to your employer. There is a reason they cancelled your training and that is they would be paying you for a half day and you wouldnt be doing anything productive and the productivity of the company would be diminished in your absence so its more that just your pay.
I thing you have already answered all your own questions in your intial post; I am just confirming to you that your fears are realistic taking your employers point of view. I dont know what employment law is like in the UK. In the US there are all sorts of laws to protect people from discrimination in the workplace but when you look into how you would actually use them to protect yourself it seems like its not worth the hassle (I left my last job in relation to my being a whistleblower in a religious discrimination issue).0 -
Hey Lauren, I'm surprised at the HR Director reacting like that. You haven't actually given your notice yet. You spoke informally with your line manager informing him of your intention to leave that's all. You have a contract stating 4 weeks notice. Your employer cannot insist on a longer term than that. Any change to that term, longer or shorter, will have to be mutually agreed.
Now, what if the worst happens and your new employer pushes out the start date indefinitely, or retracts the offer? Have you signed a contract with them by the way? Is there a latest start date? What if that offer doesn't materialise and you have been pushed out of your current role because they have hired your replacement? You need to ensure you are protected.
I can sympathise with your current employer. You are in a critical role and they know it will be difficult to replace you. However, they have no right to stop you going to training and hiring someone to take your role. It is still YOUR role and you have very strong legal rights in the UK. What your employer is doing is tantamount to constructive dismissal. Until you give formal notice you are employed. So your employer either has to sit it out and wait for you to hand in your notice, or they negotiate a full and final settlement with you and you leave, or they terminate your employment without just cause and you take them to an employment appeals tribunal for unfair dismissal. And you will win because they have already shot themselves in the foot with their behaviour so far.
Best approach is to put pressure on your new company to give you a start date and work from there. Good luck.0 -
You should have asked for advice before you announced you were leaving. I would have told you to say nothing until you had your start date, and, even then, give them only 2 weeks notice until your last day. I don't care what your relationship is with your current employer -- how much notice would they give you if there was a layoff?
There is really no advice to give at this point. You already dealt the cards. What may be even worse is that, you don't get the job for some reason, but your current employer knows you have been looking. What happens if you stay and an opportunity comes up at you current employer and you and Susie both apply. Know one knows if Susie is unhappy at work, but your employer knows you have already been aout there looking.
Unless you are in a Union, most companys are "at will" employers and can let you go at any time.
Have you actually read any of this thread?
1. Both myself and my employer have to give 4 weeks notice if my contract comes to an end for whatever reason.
2. I have the job, I have a signed contract for the job with pay etc on it, but a start date of 'TBC'.
3. I'm from the UK. 'At will' does not exist here.
Sorry I butted in. Sounds like you got it all figured out. What are you asking advice for then?0 -
Ok, so I was recently offered a job elsewhere, for a company I've always wanted to work for. They literally made me an offer I couldn't refuse. The only downside - no start date.
Im not a lawyer either but.... With no start date....theres no offer. Did you sign anything? If not, theres no offer. I think you really made a huge mistake by mentioning anything to your current employer without a legal document holding the company you want to work for responsible (for being unemployed) if for any reason that fell through.
Sorry for your situation but if anything else hopefully you learn something here. My only advice moving forward is to look for someone who can give you legal advice in your state about your situation and the employment laws there.0 -
The Employment Rights Act 1996 states that, unless the employee repudiates the relationship, before a dismissal every employer must give reasonable notice after one month of work, and after two years employers must provide a sufficiently fair reason for dismissal and redundancy payments for employees made redundant.
So if I assume you are there longer than 2 years you probably have nothing to worry about, unless they fabricate some sufficient reason for termination in which case they still need to provide reasonable notice.
But always consult a lawyer.
folks, time to apply some reading comprehension. She is from the UK so spouting off about "employment at will" doesn't really help her in any meaningful way. Admittedly she has already inserted foot in mouth by saying anything......0 -
I dont know what TUPE means. I am not sure why you are so torn up about not doing the training or what value it is to you since you are leaving the position some time soon. I cant imagine that providing any further training is in the interest of your employer. You just got done telling us that your position is vital to production but then you dont realize that your spending a half day at training is no big deal to your employer. There is a reason they cancelled your training and that is they would be paying you for a half day and you wouldnt be doing anything productive and the productivity of the company would be diminished in your absence so its more that just your pay.
Training is training. :laugh: I want to do any training I can (especially if it's free). I want to improve myself. I'm not sure why that's incomprehensible for you.
Me spending half a day in a training session is not going to bring the company to a halt. Yes, my job is important, but it doesn't require someone 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I am allowed to move from my desk, believe it or not.0 -
If you can, maybe tell them that you're here to stay. You can always quit later. In the future, yeah, don't tell them about a new job.
Funny how trying to be nice oftentimes only ends up backfiring, eh?0 -
Does the company have to pay for the training, though? It sounds like they don't want to invest money in training someone who's leaving. I can understand that POV.
I dont know what TUPE means. I am not sure why you are so torn up about not doing the training or what value it is to you since you are leaving the position some time soon. I cant imagine that providing any further training is in the interest of your employer. You just got done telling us that your position is vital to production but then you dont realize that your spending a half day at training is no big deal to your employer. There is a reason they cancelled your training and that is they would be paying you for a half day and you wouldnt be doing anything productive and the productivity of the company would be diminished in your absence so its more that just your pay.
Training is training. :laugh: I want to do any training I can (especially if it's free). I want to improve myself. I'm not sure why that's incomprehensible for you.
Me spending half a day in a training session is not going to bring the company to a halt. Yes, my job is important, but it doesn't require someone 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I am allowed to move from my desk, believe it or not.0 -
I would agree that you should probably go to them and tell them that your prospective employer retracted the job offer and that you intend to stay on with them. Then if this new job actually materializes then give your current employer the 4 weeks notice.0
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I would say nothing I had a job offer with a start date but at the last minute they closed down the position due to budget issues. I am glad I said nothing. If anything just say I'm just looking at my options and leave it at that. And if for contractal reasons you have to give x amount of notice I would incorporate that into the job offer and ensure a contract is signed before you quit your current position. If a contract is required.0
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If you really want to go to that training course, try to talk to HR and let them know that. While they may have heard that you were interviewed, nothing is set in stone yet and you haven't put your resignation in writing, You have a right to attend that seminar if you want to.0
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Hey Lauren, I'm surprised at the HR Director reacting like that. You haven't actually given your notice yet. You spoke informally with your line manager informing him of your intention to leave that's all. You have a contract stating 4 weeks notice. Your employer cannot insist on a longer term than that. Any change to that term, longer or shorter, will have to be mutually agreed.
Now, what if the worst happens and your new employer pushes out the start date indefinitely, or retracts the offer? Have you signed a contract with them by the way? Is there a latest start date? What if that offer doesn't materialise and you have been pushed out of your current role because they have hired your replacement? You need to ensure you are protected.
I can sympathise with your current employer. You are in a critical role and they know it will be difficult to replace you. However, they have no right to stop you going to training and hiring someone to take your role. It is still YOUR role and you have very strong legal rights in the UK. What your employer is doing is tantamount to constructive dismissal. Until you give formal notice you are employed. So your employer either has to sit it out and wait for you to hand in your notice, or they negotiate a full and final settlement with you and you leave, or they terminate your employment without just cause and you take them to an employment appeals tribunal for unfair dismissal. And you will win because they have already shot themselves in the foot with their behaviour so far.
Best approach is to put pressure on your new company to give you a start date and work from there. Good luck.
I have signed a contract, just with no start date. I requested the offer in writing before I made my employer aware.
Thanks for your advice. I need to look up constructive dismissal I think.0 -
ask a lawyer, not a fitness site.0
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ask a lawyer, not a fitness site.
This ^^^
and...... I'm pretty sure that in the UK they cannot terminate your contract simply because you stated an intention to leave at some point in the future. Check your contract T&C but I think they have to have a reason to fire you unless they have grounds. Also, verbally informing them does not constitute notice. Email might - did you email them?0 -
You should have asked for advice before you announced you were leaving. I would have told you to say nothing until you had your start date, and, even then, give them only 2 weeks notice until your last day. I don't care what your relationship is with your current employer -- how much notice would they give you if there was a layoff?
There is really no advice to give at this point. You already dealt the cards. What may be even worse is that, you don't get the job for some reason, but your current employer knows you have been looking. What happens if you stay and an opportunity comes up at you current employer and you and Susie both apply. Know one knows if Susie is unhappy at work, but your employer knows you have already been aout there looking.
Unless you are in a Union, most companys are "at will" employers and can let you go at any time.
Have you actually read any of this thread?
1. Both myself and my employer have to give 4 weeks notice if my contract comes to an end for whatever reason.
2. I have the job, I have a signed contract for the job with pay etc on it, but a start date of 'TBC'.
3. I'm from the UK. 'At will' does not exist here.
Sorry I butted in. Sounds like you got it all figured out. What are you asking advice for then?
That's quite alright. If you read the OP, the questions are at the bottom.0 -
Ok, slightly more background info.
I'm in the UK, I have a contract, no union. My contract says nothing about my current situation, only that both parties have to give 4 weeks notice if one wishes to terminate the contract.
That's the thing, I HAVE to give 4 weeks notice, I certainly couldn't walk out of there after 2 days. However because of the job it is, they don't think that 4 weeks is long enough, but if that was so, should they not have requested a longer notice period when I started?
I understand I have probably shot myself in the foot, and I have learnt my lesson! I honestly thought I was doing the right thing.
Is there some...compulsion in your contract for giving notice? Or a financial penalty if you do? Short of the US military (AWOL), I can't think of a job that a body couldn't quit on the spot.
The damage was probably done when you told them in the first place. Perhaps damage control would be to drag your feet in the interview process, or to write a very, very specific and defined job description so that it takes a lot longer to find any qualified applicants.0 -
Does the cmopany have to pay for the training, though? It sounds like they don't want to invest money in training someone who's leaving. I can understand that POV.
I dont know what TUPE means. I am not sure why you are so torn up about not doing the training or what value it is to you since you are leaving the position some time soon. I cant imagine that providing any further training is in the interest of your employer. You just got done telling us that your position is vital to production but then you dont realize that your spending a half day at training is no big deal to your employer. There is a reason they cancelled your training and that is they would be paying you for a half day and you wouldnt be doing anything productive and the productivity of the company would be diminished in your absence so its more that just your pay.
Training is training. :laugh: I want to do any training I can (especially if it's free). I want to improve myself. I'm not sure why that's incomprehensible for you.
Me spending half a day in a training session is not going to bring the company to a halt. Yes, my job is important, but it doesn't require someone 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I am allowed to move from my desk, believe it or not.
No, it's free training for them as it's carried out by employees. It is legally recognised though.
Don't get me wrong I understand completely why they don't want to train me, I'm just not entirely sure whether they have the legal right to pull me out of this training, as I've had it booked for months.0 -
ask a lawyer, not a fitness site.
Don't know about the US, but in the UK, 'solicitors' are expensive.0 -
ask a lawyer, not a fitness site.
This ^^^
and...... I'm pretty sure that in the UK they cannot terminate your contract simply because you stated an intention to leave at some point in the future. Check your contract T&C but I think they have to have a reason to fire you unless they have grounds. Also, verbally informing them does not constitute notice. Email might - did you email them?
No, I didn't email them. My contract doesn't say much about dismissal, just talk about gross misconduct and the procedures around that. It's not very informative at all, in fact, which is why I'm so confused about where I stand.0 -
ask a lawyer, not a fitness site.
Don't know about the US, but in the UK, 'solicitors' are expensive.
i understand that, but "non-solicitors" haha will give you a million different wrong answers.0 -
It's a little after 2pm in the UK, right? Are you at work right now?0
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In my position I pay for all my own employment expenses directly. I am also the only individual who brings revenue into the company so I do a brutal calculation on the cost vs. benefit of my own training (and believe me I have to do plenty of it). Just giving you the employers point of view. I am on both sides of it in my job.0
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