Muscles can lift what the tendons can't, learn from me

FrnkLft
FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
So I've managed to develop tendinitis in both my lower quads and my inner elbows.... and I've had it for about 4 months now. I was doing no isolation, save for curls at moderate weight 3x10 twice a week.

I want other lifters to be aware of this so that they don't end up having to go to physical therapy like I do.

Now he tells me I can do 3x10 squats once a week with about 50% of my body weight, and to lower that if it starts to hurt... which I know it probably will. I'm probably going to be sidelined for 4-5 months more.

START LIGHT AND SLOW. Your tendons need to adapt to heavy weights/work frequency just like your muscles do, and they adapt much slower. Be smart about your programing, and and patient.

****, I didn't even start off quickly or heavy. Probably a volume thing, and I was definitely trying to be careful.
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Replies

  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    I have been diagnosed with it in at least two places.

    magic 8 ball says if you have been dealing with pain for more than a few weeks- it's tendonosis not tendinitis.

    Tendentious is one of the most over diagnosed things in sports injuries.

    Bad news- deloading- and slowing down = le suck

    Good news- you can bounce back. I went from not being able to take my own shirt off (like crossing your arms and lifting the corners) without severe crippling pain- to completely functional shoulder... now I'm repeating with my elbow- same type of issue. (least I presume- I haven't gone to see anyone because it's pretty much the same issue in a different location)

    I used a combination of physical therapy and active release technique- and it REALLY helped- ART- not for the faint of heart though. I had a huge bruise on my back/shoulder from the gratson technique he used on me- it was really painful. But it definitely helped.

    Good luck dude- tendon issues BLOW>
  • Fullsterkur_woman
    Fullsterkur_woman Posts: 2,712 Member
    I have been diagnosed with it in at least two places.

    magic 8 ball says if you have been dealing with pain for more than a few weeks- it's tendonosis not tendinitis.

    Tendentious is one of the most over diagnosed things in sports injuries.

    Bad news- deloading- and slowing down = le suck

    Good news- you can bounce back. I went from not being able to take my own shirt off (like crossing your arms and lifting the corners) without severe crippling pain- to completely functional shoulder... now I'm repeating with my elbow- same type of issue. (least I presume- I haven't gone to see anyone because it's pretty much the same issue in a different location)

    I used a combination of physical therapy and active release technique- and it REALLY helped- ART- not for the faint of heart though. I had a huge bruise on my back/shoulder from the gratson technique he used on me- it was really painful. But it definitely helped.

    Good luck dude- tendon issues BLOW>
    Welcome to my life. Connective tissue issues blow. I try to get strong so my muscles can hold together what the tendons and ligaments can't; I get spasms, trigger points, and lots of myofascial crud. Yes, ART FTW! But also yes, painful. Le sigh. The things we do to get more indestructible!
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    ART is winning... I own 2 foam rollers and need to find a new therapist. Seriously- that chit is amazaballs.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    ART?
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    ART?


    I had to google that one. Apparently, it's Active Release Therapy.
  • LessJos
    LessJos Posts: 113 Member
    You might want to look into what Kelly Starrett is doing on his mobility WOD page.
  • hippy2skippy
    hippy2skippy Posts: 98 Member
    Yes, what is ART? I have tendonitis (or osis lol) in my outer elbow. :/
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    ART?


    I had to google that one. Apparently, it's Active Release Therapy.

    I said it in my original post
    I used a combination of physical therapy and active release technique- and it REALLY helped- ART- not for the faint of heart though. I had a huge bruise on my back/shoulder from the gratson technique he used on me- it was really painful. But it definitely helped.

    I gave you what you needed: use your fingers and do some googling people.
  • myprana
    myprana Posts: 66
    The reminder is appreciated. Sorry you had to be the example. :-(
  • ElliottTN
    ElliottTN Posts: 1,614 Member
    Kinda amazed your muscles were able to really out do your tendons like that if you were being careful like you said. At least you didn't fully visit snap city, things could be worse. 4-5 months huh? sounds like its cutting time.
  • dirty_dirty_eater
    dirty_dirty_eater Posts: 574 Member
    ...and, the stuff you strain when you're young will come back to bite you in the backside when you are no longer young.

    I wish I didn't know that.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Kinda amazed your muscles were able to really out do your tendons like that if you were being careful like you said. At least you didn't fully visit snap city, things could be worse. 4-5 months huh? sounds like its cutting time.

    Yeah man, absolutely. I work a desk job, and hadn't been particularly active for a while.

    I started up on Wendler's 5/3/1, which was probably a mistake, since it has you starting the program, working at 90% of your 1RM when I was relatively untrained. I confused having the strength to do it with being properly conditioned to do it. (granted, this is my take away. I could just have weak tendons... maybe...) Like I said though I tweaked the program a bit to have higher squat volume, and that might have done it too. Really can't be sure.

    I say this all the time, but seriously start on something like Stronglifts and start with the bar. You'll feel like a ***** at first, but who cares, you'll be lifting some serious weight in 3 months.

    And program your deloads, so you don't have to take it "when you need it", and just stay healthy throughout.
  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
    I need MEN to read this also. This isn't bull****. I'm only 27, far from an old man.

    Sorry, got no help for you man.
  • pcastagner
    pcastagner Posts: 1,606 Member
    I guess there are benefits to being a total pansy!
  • _TastySnoBalls_
    _TastySnoBalls_ Posts: 1,298 Member
    That blows OP, good luck with your recovery
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
    That sucks.

    Sitting it out and slowly rehabbing an injury is an exercise in patience and mental fortitude - I wish you all the best man.

    Just to let you know that if you are patient and sensible, there's always a way back.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    Food for thought re: connective tissue health...

    Tendons and ligaments experience far less blood flow than muscle tissue during training, and exponentially less during recovery. More frequent loading of connective tissues at least keeps them in a state of higher blood flow more often than a less frequent, higher volume program. So maybe hit the affected joint (or all joints?) more often, with less volume, to help speed your rehab?
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Food for thought re: connective tissue health...

    Tendons and ligaments experience far less blood flow than muscle tissue during training, and exponentially less during recovery. More frequent loading of connective tissues at least keeps them in a state of higher blood flow more often than a less frequent, higher volume program. So maybe hit the affected joint (or all joints?) more often, with less volume, to help speed your rehab?

    That's some tenuous broscience right there man lol :drinker: But yeah whether it's for this reason or not, he doesn't want me to outright stop squatting. He just advised that I go back to about 50% of bodyweight, once a week, and see if there's any pain.
  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
    Food for thought re: connective tissue health...

    Tendons and ligaments experience far less blood flow than muscle tissue during training, and exponentially less during recovery. More frequent loading of connective tissues at least keeps them in a state of higher blood flow more often than a less frequent, higher volume program. So maybe hit the affected joint (or all joints?) more often, with less volume, to help speed your rehab?

    That's some tenuous broscience right there man lol :drinker: But yeah whether it's for this reason or not, he doesn't want me to outright stop squatting. He just advised that I go back to about 50% of bodyweight, once a week, and see if there's any pain.

    Buh? One reason why it takes connective tissue so much longer to heal than muscle is because of the substantially lower blood flow.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Food for thought re: connective tissue health...

    Tendons and ligaments experience far less blood flow than muscle tissue during training, and exponentially less during recovery. More frequent loading of connective tissues at least keeps them in a state of higher blood flow more often than a less frequent, higher volume program. So maybe hit the affected joint (or all joints?) more often, with less volume, to help speed your rehab?

    That's some tenuous broscience right there man lol :drinker: But yeah whether it's for this reason or not, he doesn't want me to outright stop squatting. He just advised that I go back to about 50% of bodyweight, once a week, and see if there's any pain.

    Buh? One reason why it takes connective tissue so much longer to heal than muscle is because of the substantially lower blood flow.

    Ya, but he was advocating proactively exercising the joint with more frequency and less volume& weight to promote blood flow. Lol he was just working out an idea, out loud. That said in this case it's my elbows and knees. My knees get a lot of use on a daily basis whether I like it or not.

    Of course I'm going with PT's advice of once a week at 50%. Totally doable, just sucks.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    Food for thought re: connective tissue health...

    Tendons and ligaments experience far less blood flow than muscle tissue during training, and exponentially less during recovery. More frequent loading of connective tissues at least keeps them in a state of higher blood flow more often than a less frequent, higher volume program. So maybe hit the affected joint (or all joints?) more often, with less volume, to help speed your rehab?

    That's some tenuous broscience right there man lol :drinker: But yeah whether it's for this reason or not, he doesn't want me to outright stop squatting. He just advised that I go back to about 50% of bodyweight, once a week, and see if there's any pain.

    Buh? One reason why it takes connective tissue so much longer to heal than muscle is because of the substantially lower blood flow.

    My research supports that as well- it takes MONTHS longer than muscles and bones because of the reduced blood flow.

    That's why ART/Foam rolling works- breaks up crusty scar tissue and improves blood flow.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    Food for thought re: connective tissue health...

    Tendons and ligaments experience far less blood flow than muscle tissue during training, and exponentially less during recovery. More frequent loading of connective tissues at least keeps them in a state of higher blood flow more often than a less frequent, higher volume program. So maybe hit the affected joint (or all joints?) more often, with less volume, to help speed your rehab?

    That's some tenuous broscience right there man lol :drinker: But yeah whether it's for this reason or not, he doesn't want me to outright stop squatting. He just advised that I go back to about 50% of bodyweight, once a week, and see if there's any pain.

    Buh? One reason why it takes connective tissue so much longer to heal than muscle is because of the substantially lower blood flow.

    Ya, but he was advocating using the joint to promote blood flow. Lol he was just working out and idea, out loud. That said in this case it's my elbows and knees. My knees get a lot of use on a daily basis whether I like it or not.

    I'm just going on stuff culled from guys like Perryman, Bill Starr, Pendlay, etc. I'll see if I can drag up an article that seems well-supported. It's not anything that's been researched clinically very much, but it's been results-driven by some very well-regarded serious lifters.
  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
    Food for thought re: connective tissue health...

    Tendons and ligaments experience far less blood flow than muscle tissue during training, and exponentially less during recovery. More frequent loading of connective tissues at least keeps them in a state of higher blood flow more often than a less frequent, higher volume program. So maybe hit the affected joint (or all joints?) more often, with less volume, to help speed your rehab?

    That's some tenuous broscience right there man lol :drinker: But yeah whether it's for this reason or not, he doesn't want me to outright stop squatting. He just advised that I go back to about 50% of bodyweight, once a week, and see if there's any pain.

    Buh? One reason why it takes connective tissue so much longer to heal than muscle is because of the substantially lower blood flow.

    Ya, but he was advocating proactively exercising the joint with more frequency and less volume& weight to promote blood flow. Lol he was just working out an idea, out loud. That said in this case it's my elbows and knees. My knees get a lot of use on a daily basis whether I like it or not.

    Of course I'm going with PT's advice of once a week at 50%. Totally doable, just sucks.

    Yeah, I've got no clue about the differential blood flow in loaded connective tissues vs. unloaded, % max or otherwise, so perhaps broscience. But it smells legit.
  • janicebinva
    janicebinva Posts: 99 Member
    It's SO true that building up slowly is the way to go, especially as you get older. I'm 47, and I have found that the older I get, the slower my overall ability to handle resistance builds up. It just takes time. My muscles will respond, but if I go too fast, I injure something else. So while it sucks to be patient, it sucks worse to have a setback that takes away the ability to continue getting into better shape.

    Good luck, OP.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    Yeah, I've got no clue about the differential blood flow in loaded connective tissues vs. unloaded, % max or otherwise, so perhaps broscience. But it smells legit.

    well moving things- makes the blood flow.

    So we use that for almost every other aspect of working out- warm up before you stretch- gets' the blood flowing and the muscle's warm.

    I didn't research my stuff on a sports side- I researched purely through the medical stuff on tendonosis. And that's exactly what it all said. increased blood flow helps healing- which is why we do such nasty things like gratson (sp)
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    I'm just going on stuff culled from guys like Perryman, Bill Starr, Pendlay, etc. I'll see if I can drag up an article that seems well-supported. It's not anything that's been researched clinically very much, but it's been results-driven by some very well-regarded serious lifters.

    Nah man I was mostly playing with you. That makes intuitive sense sure, but I don't know if the " frequent light use to increase blood flow" is better than just giving it rest. Think playing with a scab, versus just leaving it alone.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    My research supports that as well- it takes MONTHS longer than muscles and bones because of the reduced blood flow.

    That's why ART/Foam rolling works- breaks up crusty scar tissue and improves blood flow.

    That's funny; I just read a pretty comprehensive article re: foam rolling-type therapies that basically resulted in these guys saying " we really don't know why foam rolling works."

    I'd be really interested to see any solid info you've got.
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
    All I know is, now that I'm older mobility/roller work is mandatory. In fact, I'm busting it out tomorrow due to this thread (and the fact I'm starting to feel a bit like hammered crap)
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member

    Yeah, I've got no clue about the differential blood flow in loaded connective tissues vs. unloaded, % max or otherwise, so perhaps broscience. But it smells legit.


    That's the problem with broscience, IMO. It smells legit. It sometimes tastes legit. It's only when you get the explosive diarrhea or projectile vomiting afterward that you know that it isn't legit.



    Re: the bloodflow stuff? I have no clue.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    I'm just going on stuff culled from guys like Perryman, Bill Starr, Pendlay, etc. I'll see if I can drag up an article that seems well-supported. It's not anything that's been researched clinically very much, but it's been results-driven by some very well-regarded serious lifters.

    Nah man I was mostly playing with you. That makes intuitive sense sure, but I don't know if the " frequent light use to increase blood flow" is better than just giving it rest. Think playing with a scab, versus just leaving it alone.

    Off the cuff, and certainly anecdotal, but IMO worth consideration:

    “When I first took the plunge, I was paranoid about getting hurt again, but at that point I had nothing else to lose. I could either train how I wanted ― heavy and with the big lifts ― or I’d just have to quit and take up stamp collecting.
    As the days and weeks went on, I noticed something. Not only was I not getting hurt, but all the squatting felt like it was greasing the rails. The old injuries, which normally ached and made me very aware that I was bothering them, started griping less and less. They never became painless, but I’d not expect that. It was more like they retreated into a background noise of dull ache, sometimes irritating, but never once did I feel like a catastrophic blow-out was imminent.
    At that point my interest was piqued, and I kept coming back to a post John Broz made on the Bodybuilding.com forums:
    NOT training everyday leads to more injuries! IF you train everyday then your entire body is fatigued. Muscles, tendons, cartilage, ligaments, etc. When you train every other day, then the muscles and avascular tissues don’t recover at the same pace. What happens is the muscles become fresh and recover but all the connective tissue is NOT. When the additional stress put on these weakened tissues (that never really got a chance to recover) by fresh muscles = injury. Lifting everyday keeps everything in a state that is equal and consistent within the system. A balance or harmony within. The fatigued muscles can’t contract enough to harm the other tissues. The weak link moves from body part to body part, and in a sense is not letting the other parts max so that’s when they are resting”

    Excerpt From: Matt Perryman. “Squat Every Day.”

    If the idea seems like it has any value to you at all, I'd really recommend checking his ebook out. It's only $7. Well worth it if only for an entertainment read. His perspective on training the body as a complex system is quite intriguing.

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