Supporting scientific techniques and topics
Replies
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I want to know what you guys all think. Lets make this interactive folks.0
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I still have to read that PDF you provided. :laugh:0
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OK, I'll bite.
This is quite intriguing, because he seems to be investigating not just the fasting period but the types of foods fasted from. Essentially, if I'm understanding correctly, the continued ingestion of carbohydrates is necessary to encourage fat stores rather than protein stores to be used as an energy source? So, in my micro-understanding, keep the glycogen coming?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, it seems to be OK to engage in intermittent fasting according to this.
Or am I just confused? I skimmed and it's early.
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on the original paper I posted? I'm not sure you can make that conclusion specifically. They used something called a glucose clamp to regulate glucose in the blood (along with the insulin clamp as well to do the same with free insulin in the blood), but this was done only to create a stable glucose ratio in the blood so that they could accurately gauge how fast the thermogenic response to glucose was.
One thing I did notice upon re-reading this research was that while the original 72 hour time stamp where the body goes into "starvation mode" (or thermogenic conservation as the author calls it) is accurate for someone in a fasting state, it actually looks like it takes a little longer for someone just "underfeeding", up to 7 days depending. Which makes sense I guess, as the more carbohydrates you add to the system, the longer you delay that total change over to a gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis based system.
What really got my interest was the hypothesis about the Catecholamine-induced thermogenesis. They theorize that catecholamine (basically the fight or flight hormone) can stimulate different thermogenic pathways in the body. I'd love to read more about that. I might look it up.
Who knows, maybe this is the beginnings of a new type of exercise regimen, "Fear based training"
I could make millions! LOL!0 -
on the original paper I posted? I'm not sure you can make that conclusion specifically. They used something called a glucose clamp to regulate glucose in the blood (along with the insulin clamp as well to do the same with free insulin in the blood), but this was done only to create a stable glucose ratio in the blood so that they could accurately gauge how fast the thermogenic response to glucose was.
One thing I did notice upon re-reading this research was that while the original 72 hour time stamp where the body goes into "starvation mode" (or thermogenic conservation as the author calls it) is accurate for someone in a fasting state, it actually looks like it takes a little longer for someone just "underfeeding", up to 7 days depending. Which makes sense I guess, as the more carbohydrates you add to the system, the longer you delay that total change over to a gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis based system.
What really got my interest was the hypothesis about the Catecholamine-induced thermogenesis. They theorize that catecholamine (basically the fight or flight hormone) can stimulate different thermogenic pathways in the body. I'd love to read more about that. I might look it up.
Who knows, maybe this is the beginnings of a new type of exercise regimen, "Fear based training"
I could make millions! LOL!
Is "Catecholamine" the same as cortisol? I thought cortisol (fight or flight chemical) was bad for weight loss...
isn't "fear based training" what Jillian Michaels does? She's certainly made millions....0 -
on the original paper I posted? I'm not sure you can make that conclusion specifically. They used something called a glucose clamp to regulate glucose in the blood (along with the insulin clamp as well to do the same with free insulin in the blood), but this was done only to create a stable glucose ratio in the blood so that they could accurately gauge how fast the thermogenic response to glucose was.
One thing I did notice upon re-reading this research was that while the original 72 hour time stamp where the body goes into "starvation mode" (or thermogenic conservation as the author calls it) is accurate for someone in a fasting state, it actually looks like it takes a little longer for someone just "underfeeding", up to 7 days depending. Which makes sense I guess, as the more carbohydrates you add to the system, the longer you delay that total change over to a gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis based system.
What really got my interest was the hypothesis about the Catecholamine-induced thermogenesis. They theorize that catecholamine (basically the fight or flight hormone) can stimulate different thermogenic pathways in the body. I'd love to read more about that. I might look it up.
Who knows, maybe this is the beginnings of a new type of exercise regimen, "Fear based training"
I could make millions! LOL!
Is "Catecholamine" the same as cortisol? I thought cortisol (fight or flight chemical) was bad for weight loss...
isn't "fear based training" what Jillian Michaels does? She's certainly made millions....
lol, I think JM is more annoyance based training.
to answer your question, no Catecholamines is different from cotisol, Catecholamines are neurotransmitters produced in the brain that affects the brain (think dopamine), along with the sympathetic nervous system, where cortisol is a stress hormone produced by the adrenal gland that affects glucose levels in the blood and also suppresses the immune system. Though a rise in both can occur during stressful situations, I believe cortisol's main function is to provide more fast energy for action where Catecholamines are deigned to increase functional awareness in the body (hyper senses, like when you are really afraid, have you ever notice that you see things better, and hear sounds more acutely, that's partly to do with Catecholamines).
Both have their upsides and downsides though. I know that stimulating cortisol production during heavy exercise is a good thing, especially during explosion type training (like plyometrics or HIIT training), I wonder if there would be a way for us to take advantage of the mind enhancing effects of Catecholamines. Either via suppliment, or some kind of specific warm up regimen that would induce that kind of chemical response (maybe watching something terrifying right before you work out? dunno.) It's something to think about.0 -
Seriously you guys are going to kill me. I remember reading about how fight catecholamines were tied into something about weight loss, but I don't remember where. Now I have to go track that down.on the original paper I posted? I'm not sure you can make that conclusion specifically. They used something called a glucose clamp to regulate glucose in the blood (along with the insulin clamp as well to do the same with free insulin in the blood), but this was done only to create a stable glucose ratio in the blood so that they could accurately gauge how fast the thermogenic response to glucose was.
One thing I did notice upon re-reading this research was that while the original 72 hour time stamp where the body goes into "starvation mode" (or thermogenic conservation as the author calls it) is accurate for someone in a fasting state, it actually looks like it takes a little longer for someone just "underfeeding", up to 7 days depending. Which makes sense I guess, as the more carbohydrates you add to the system, the longer you delay that total change over to a gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis based system.
What really got my interest was the hypothesis about the Catecholamine-induced thermogenesis. They theorize that catecholamine (basically the fight or flight hormone) can stimulate different thermogenic pathways in the body. I'd love to read more about that. I might look it up.
Who knows, maybe this is the beginnings of a new type of exercise regimen, "Fear based training"
I could make millions! LOL!
Is "Catecholamine" the same as cortisol? I thought cortisol (fight or flight chemical) was bad for weight loss...
isn't "fear based training" what Jillian Michaels does? She's certainly made millions....
lol, I think JM is more annoyance based training.
to answer your question, no Catecholamines is different from cotisol, Catecholamines are neurotransmitters produced in the brain that affects the brain (think dopamine), along with the sympathetic nervous system, where cortisol is a stress hormone produced by the adrenal gland that affects glucose levels in the blood and also suppresses the immune system. Though a rise in both can occur during stressful situations, I believe cortisol's main function is to provide more fast energy for action where Catecholamines are deigned to increase functional awareness in the body (hyper senses, like when you are really afraid, have you ever notice that you see things better, and hear sounds more acutely, that's partly to do with Catecholamines).
Both have their upsides and downsides though. I know that stimulating cortisol production during heavy exercise is a good thing, especially during explosion type training (like plyometrics or HIIT training), I wonder if there would be a way for us to take advantage of the mind enhancing effects of Catecholamines. Either via suppliment, or some kind of specific warm up regimen that would induce that kind of chemical response (maybe watching something terrifying right before you work out? dunno.) It's something to think about.0 -
This connection could also be tied to the idea that coffee before a workout can contribute to a better burn during the workout (I've noticed this through the decidedly non-scientific experiment of drinking a double espresso before a workout and then checking my HRM).
Check this out:http://books.google.ca/books?id=oI6LtxfEKkwC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=coffee+and+catecholamines&source=bl&ots=Ck4nGAUQox&sig=gpQECc1GfOGYQJNENEdIuRYu1bk&hl=en&ei=EILlTNrmIYi6sAO_2uWxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=coffee and catecholamines&f=false
(should link to a book theorizing that coffee releases catecholamines.)
has nerdgasm, falls over...0 -
And, from all that, THIS is the part that I get! Okay, somebody might have to do lots of explaining on the other stuff! :laugh:has nerdgasm, falls over...0 -
This connection could also be tied to the idea that coffee before a workout can contribute to a better burn during the workout (I've noticed this through the decidedly non-scientific experiment of drinking a double espresso before a workout and then checking my HRM).
Check this out:http://books.google.ca/books?id=oI6LtxfEKkwC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=coffee+and+catecholamines&source=bl&ots=Ck4nGAUQox&sig=gpQECc1GfOGYQJNENEdIuRYu1bk&hl=en&ei=EILlTNrmIYi6sAO_2uWxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=coffee and catecholamines&f=false
(should link to a book theorizing that coffee releases catecholamines.)
has nerdgasm, falls over...
big fan of coffee before workouts. Coffiene breaks down to Paraxanthine (and a couple others, but mainly this one) which stimulates lipidosys. this means more Free fatty acids in the blood, I.E. more fast ATP generation, which means more high energy work before your muscles get all anaerobic and stuff.0 -
And, from all that, THIS is the part that I get! Okay, somebody might have to do lots of explaining on the other stuff! :laugh:has nerdgasm, falls over...
don't knock the nerds, without us people would still be trying to lose weight with vibration belts and plastic sweat suites!0 -
:sick: I'll take running over plastic sweat suits any day.don't knock the nerds, without us people would still be trying to lose weight with vibration belts and plastic sweat suites!0 -
And, from all that, THIS is the part that I get! Okay, somebody might have to do lots of explaining on the other stuff! :laugh:has nerdgasm, falls over...
don't knock the nerds, without us people would still be trying to lose weight with vibration belts and plastic sweat suites!
LOL, I don't know if you've noticed but they still are. They've just taken the lastest form in miracle shoes, bar bells that shake, and a velcro around the waist vibrating belts. Not to mention the Thigh Master!0 -
bump0
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I'm finding the discussion very interesting. Thanks for creating the thread.
As to the article you've been discussing, I will need to read it 3 or 4 more times to fully process it. My mind is just too fogged. Did I understand correctly that initially people started burning more calories at rest? I'll try to read the article again this weekend when my brain is rested.
I want to post about the so-called toning shoes. As a physical therapist, I'm asked about them all the time.
When I first researched the issue there was only 1 study by Skechers that had 10 subjects but 1 dropped out due to pregnancy. The study showed an overall increase in fitness but the study was flawed as the fine print at the end admitted the participants were told maintain their current activity level and the majority of the 9 admitted increasing their activity level because they liked the shoes. Unfortunately, Skechers is "updating" their website and I can't find that article.
I did find an article comparing Rebocks, MBT, Sketchers and regular New Balance shoes. This study found no difference in the use of the toning to regular shoes.
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/studies/toningshoes-findings.pdf
Of the other studies that I found, most showing an improvement don’t show whether this increased muscle activity leads to meaningful changes in muscle tone/appearance over time (ie. once the walker becomes accustomed to the shoe)...
MBT website get kudos for at least making the research available on the website but most are only the abstracts.
http://us.mbt.com/Home/Benefits/Studies.aspx
One study of 29 control and 30 test subjects by MBT did state: No improvements with strength, mobility or walking speed. They did find an improvement in coordinative skills. I only found the abstract to this article:
http://cdn-colo-ch-2.mbt.com/CMSPages/GetBinaryFile.aspx/4bc8fb5b0579de5497f4dad2f3dc9d53
Another article actually stated "we assume the difference is the shoe" and then stated further research needed (*face palm*).
Reebok's claim to fame is based on a non-peer reviewed study of 5 - yes 5 people. A New York Times article stated "But the claim that the shoes offer muscle toning is backed by a single study involving just five people, not published in a peer-reviewed academic journal. In that study, done at the University of Delaware, five women walked on a treadmill for 500 steps wearing either the EasyTone or another Reebok walking shoe, and while barefoot. Using sensors that measure muscle activity, the researchers showed that wearing the EasyTone worked gluteal muscles an average of 28 percent more than regular walking shoes. Hamstring and calf muscles worked 11 percent harder."
In my quick search tonight, I could not find the original Reebock study (probably because it's not peer reviewed
)
My general advice to clients is go to the store and walk in the toning shoes for as long as possible. If they feel comfortable, you have an extra $100 to spend, and you think you will walk more in them, then get them. Anything to get people moving. IMHO, the psychological aspect may get people to exercise more even if there are no scientific benefits.
I have tried the shoes and you stand with weight distributed differently than standard shoes. Several clients with low back pain have told me walking is painless in the shoes so they do move more.
What's your opinion on the shoes?0 -
Bump!
I just discovered this via Binary_Jesters post on another thread!0 -
@pinbot, yes you were correct in your initial read, because the body continues to burn stored glycogen, but also starts to liberate more energy (via a combination of insulin suppression that goes along with ketosis and the uptick of the Krebs cycle because the body is recognizing the lack of energy incoming), the body can now burn fuel at a higher rate (please note, this is a very small increase, on the scale of maybe 100 or so extra cals a day). This only lasts until glycogen stores are depleted though, once that happens, everything slows down. Depending on the level of undernourishment, the size of the person (thus available glycogen stores) and genetic factors dictating their BMR, it can be anywhere from 60 hours to 7 days until that glycogen is depleted, but usually if it's a significant level of undernourishment, it's around 72 hours .
As to the shoe thing. I read that ace article too, and I would generally agree with it. I tend to put very little stock in any study done with the backing of a party that has a vested interest, at least until it is peer reviewed by unbiased parties that have credibility. So all those research studies done by the shoe companies, I just toss em, because to date (and maybe someone has found some, if you have, please forward the info to me) I have yet to find one of those studies that has had their conclusions backed by outside research firms.
But I would agree with you, if it gets people moving, and it's not detrimental to their health (of that, at least, I'm more certain of), fine by me. It does pain me to hear about so many people walking for exercise though. Unless you are physically unable to do more, I find walking to be a very mediocre form of exercise. It's not an indictment of walking, I'm all for people using walking as a stepping stone, but not as a primary exercise, at least not after the first few weeks or so. Once you get the body moving, I feel that they should move on to something with more upside.0 -
Seriously you guys are going to kill me. I remember reading about how fight catecholamines were tied into something about weight loss, but I don't remember where. Now I have to go track that down.
You are correct. Adipocytes contain an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL)..HSL stimulates fat breakdown and is stimulated by catecholamines.0 -
Hi,
I am Robinson
You should have a workout routine to follow.
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workout routines0 -
Bump. I love the science behind it all.0
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Bump :flowerforyou:0
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@pinbot, yes you were correct in your initial read, because the body continues to burn stored glycogen, but also starts to liberate more energy (via a combination of insulin suppression that goes along with ketosis and the uptick of the Krebs cycle because the body is recognizing the lack of energy incoming), the body can now burn fuel at a higher rate (please note, this is a very small increase, on the scale of maybe 100 or so extra cals a day). This only lasts until glycogen stores are depleted though, once that happens, everything slows down. Depending on the level of undernourishment, the size of the person (thus available glycogen stores) and genetic factors dictating their BMR, it can be anywhere from 60 hours to 7 days until that glycogen is depleted, but usually if it's a significant level of undernourishment, it's around 72 hours .
As to the shoe thing. I read that ace article too, and I would generally agree with it. I tend to put very little stock in any study done with the backing of a party that has a vested interest, at least until it is peer reviewed by unbiased parties that have credibility. So all those research studies done by the shoe companies, I just toss em, because to date (and maybe someone has found some, if you have, please forward the info to me) I have yet to find one of those studies that has had their conclusions backed by outside research firms.
But I would agree with you, if it gets people moving, and it's not detrimental to their health (of that, at least, I'm more certain of), fine by me. It does pain me to hear about so many people walking for exercise though. Unless you are physically unable to do more, I find walking to be a very mediocre form of exercise. It's not an indictment of walking, I'm all for people using walking as a stepping stone, but not as a primary exercise, at least not after the first few weeks or so. Once you get the body moving, I feel that they should move on to something with more upside.
Just an FYI, re-reading this, I came down pretty harsh on walking here. I didn't really mean to, my point about walking as exercise was simply that there are more efficient, low impact, ways to produce a higher calorie burn with less stress on the body, swimming and the elliptical come to mind (as off the cuff examples). For those that can't do these other forms, I have no problem with walking. I am simply suggesting that if your body can handle it, and you want to make improvements, walking should be one step in a gradual upward climb of exercise intensity.0 -
Bump.
Don't let me die, please people. post stuff!!!0 -
big fan of coffee before workouts. Coffiene breaks down to Paraxanthine (and a couple others, but mainly this one) which stimulates lipidosys. this means more Free fatty acids in the blood, I.E. more fast ATP generation, which means more high energy work before your muscles get all anaerobic and stuff.
Would this have any benefit for lifting or just with cardio?0 -
Stolen from Men's Health
Caffeine: Your Fitness Fuel
The chemical structure of caffeine closely resembles that of adenosine, a sleep-promoting compound. Caffeine crowds out adenosine by binding to its receptors in your brain and in muscle cells. Nerve cells begin to fire rapidly. The cortisol may reduce your rate of perceived exertion and level of pain, helping to increase performance.
Your hypothalamus signals an emergency to your pituitary gland, which triggers the flow of stress hormones from your adrenal glands.
* eyes dilate
* blood vessels constrict
* liver releases sugar
Caffeine helps calcium flood into muscle cells, so more muscle fibers are recruited.
Adrenaline frees fatty acids into your blood, preserving starch stores for long term energy, while sugar from the liver serves as instant energy.0 -
big fan of coffee before workouts. Coffiene breaks down to Paraxanthine (and a couple others, but mainly this one) which stimulates lipidosys. this means more Free fatty acids in the blood, I.E. more fast ATP generation, which means more high energy work before your muscles get all anaerobic and stuff.
Would this have any benefit for lifting or just with cardio?
actually it's better for resistance (lifting) type stuff than for aerobic activity. Since the ATP isn't ever completely depleted in aerobic work (cardio) and it is in anaerobic work (like lifting), this could possibly extend the amount of time you can work with oxygen (aerobically) before running out of fuel (fatigue).0 -
actually it's better for resistance (lifting) type stuff than for aerobic activity. Since the ATP isn't ever completely depleted in aerobic work (cardio) and it is in anaerobic work (like lifting), this could possibly extend the amount of time you can work with oxygen (aerobically) before running out of fuel (fatigue).
That is great news. I lift in the morning so drinking my coffee first is easy but there is no way I can drink it before I run in the evening. Thanks.0 -
actually it's better for resistance (lifting) type stuff than for aerobic activity. Since the ATP isn't ever completely depleted in aerobic work (cardio) and it is in anaerobic work (like lifting), this could possibly extend the amount of time you can work with oxygen (aerobically) before running out of fuel (fatigue).
That is great news. I lift in the morning so drinking my coffee first is easy but there is no way I can drink it before I run in the evening. Thanks.
oh, I did forget to mention that the effectiveness of caffeine goes way down the more you use it? Your body adapts to caffeine unfortunately.0 -
That is great news. I lift in the morning so drinking my coffee first is easy but there is no way I can drink it before I run in the evening. Thanks.
oh, I did forget to mention that the effectiveness of caffeine goes way down the more you use it? Your body adapts to caffeine unfortunately.
*pop!* That was the sounds of my bubble bursting.0 -
What if you cycle off of it for say, a week or 2 at a time?0
This discussion has been closed.
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