Deadlifts and Overhead press

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  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
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    This guy knows what he's talking about though. He told me the kinseology aspect of his reasoning. Even offered to draw me a picture. So does conventional dead-lifting tear your tendons? Judging from your guys' responses, I'm guessing it doesn't, but can someone tell me why it doesn't?

    No matter what the exercise if you have improper form, preexisting issue, not enough recovery or incorrect loading then you can tear a tendon. You can tear a tendon doing DL the way he recomnends. You can tear a tendon doing a press up. Bending down to pick something light from the floor.

    You simply keep good form, make slow and safe progress and have no pre-existing conditions and any DL or pressing movement will be fine.

    There's nothing wrong with RDL: it's one of my favourite exercises and I do it weekly. Try not to get caught up in this binary thinking this guy has pushed on you. After all, you were happily getting stronger week after week without issue before you talked to him, weren't you?
  • Chadomaniac
    Chadomaniac Posts: 1,785 Member
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    Barbell OHP will result in more stability .

    For DL . I personally pause at the when the bar hits the ground so I can adjust my form and put less pressure on my lower back . Better than jerking straight up imo



    Do what makes u feel comfortable . All the other bs wont change the size of your muscles .

    Use the correct form at a reasonable weight and you will make solid progress

    What do you mean by when you say "all the other bs"

    Getting over technical

    Stick to the basics , they work .
  • Shawshankcan
    Shawshankcan Posts: 900 Member
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    Just because someone is educated, it doesn't mean you should listen to them.
    Ohp is fine with a barbell.
    Deadlifts breaking from the floor are a great exercise.

    I listened to him is because yes, he is educated, else what would be the point of being educated. For example, if you take a person with an English degree, and you take a person who reads about literature on the internet all the time and reads and writes books, novels, poems, etc. all the time, who do you think knows more about English? The person with the English degree. After all, how can you trust stuff you read on the internet, and how do you know if your writing and reading is good?

    Also, the personal trainer gave reasons for his opinion.

    You say OHP is fine, but WHY is it fine? What make it superior to standing overhead press?

    You say deadlifts breaking from the floor is a great exercise, but WHY is it a great exercise? What makes it better than the RDL?

    Just because someone has a degree, doesn't mean they actually understand what they are talking about. On a side note, I knew a number of people with English degrees, doesn't mean I would trust them in that regards. There are many oaths to get a degree, some have more weight than others.

    That being said, somewhere years ago, someone got the notion that overhead pressing was bad for shoulders. It is simply not the case unless you have a lack of mobility or other issues with your shoulder(s). If you have an issue, you need to take care of that instead. With that being said, you are comfortable with dumbbells instead, go for it. I suggest doing it standing though. One thin I did wrong for years was doing all my pressing seated. Now I have to do it standing and it took me a number of months to get my core strong enough for it.

    Deadlifts has already been mentioned.

    This guy knows what he's talking about though. He told me the kinseology aspect of his reasoning. Even offered to draw me a picture. So does conventional dead-lifting tear your tendons? Judging from your guys' responses, I'm guessing it doesn't, but can someone tell me why it doesn't?

    How do you know he knows? He can make it sound good, but is reasoning true/factual? My brother studied kinesiology in university, but i would consider him an expert.

    Trust him if you want, it doesn't matter to me. Just don't take one person's word because of a degree.
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
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    Barbell OHP will result in more stability .

    For DL . I personally pause at the when the bar hits the ground so I can adjust my form and put less pressure on my lower back . Better than jerking straight up imo



    Do what makes u feel comfortable . All the other bs wont change the size of your muscles .

    Use the correct form at a reasonable weight and you will make solid progress

    What do you mean by when you say "all the other bs"

    Getting over technical

    Stick to the basics , they work .

    ^Agreed.

    Show up, practice good form, eat enough, sleep enough.

    A year or two down the line you should know enough to make your own routine.
  • DavPul
    DavPul Posts: 61,406 Member
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    Are you having any issues? If you've been doing these this way for months and there aren't any problems I wouldn't be rushing to stop doing them. I'd just file this information to remember down the line if an issue surfaces. No reason to panic just yet

    No, no issues yet, but I've only been doing stronglifts for 2 weeks. It's just that if I can prevent a problem before it happens, that would be preferred.

    Key word is MAY develop issues. And you're WAY over estimating the "may" part. This is akin to selling your car and walking everywhere because you MAY die in a fiery crash. Learn to drive properly and pay attention while driving and your chances of DIAF are very low.

    There is a wide wide wiiiiiiiide gap between what "could" happen and what "will" happen.
  • DavPul
    DavPul Posts: 61,406 Member
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    You guys keep telling me that a conventional deadlift is superior to a RDL, but you fail to tell me WHY that is. What is the kinseiology behind this theory?

    You know what, this is a fair question. And I'll have to admit that most of the "answers" in this thread about OHP and DL are mostly of the "you should because you should" variety or the definition variety (deadlifts pull from a dead stop is a what, but not why answer) or of the what does that even mean variety (OHP with a barbell will develop more stability?).

    So while I truly believe you are panicking and running for the hills way way way too early, it's your workout and your body to do as you please. There are hundreds of ways to do this and no exercise is something you HAVE to do. Find suitable replacements (and you have) and move on.

    I do believe you running the risk of quitting every activity someone utters a bad thought about but I'm going to take my advice and not worry about what may happen. In fact, at some point while considering this thread, I realized I'm being a hypocrite because:

    1. I'm not a big SL/SS fan (although it IS a great program for beginners)
    2. I only DL a handful of times per year (more to do with recuperation than fear of injury)
    3. I stopped doing behind the neck presses even though I never had any problems because of people telling me it could lead to impingement issues.
    4. I don't believe that there are any mandatory exercises.

    So carry on, I guess.


    ETA #4.
  • toddis
    toddis Posts: 941 Member
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    I hurt my rotator/neck/back something...doing OHP. I've since been told to switch to arnold presses and I'm happy with them.
    You wont be able to push the big numbers and thump your chest like you can with an OHP, so if that's your thing...

    Anecdotally I rarely see anyone do the OHP. The ones I do see don't appear to be doing it right (really arched back), etc.

    I'm thinking the deadlift thing is based on people releasing tension when the bar hits the ground. That would probably be bad.
    They then proceed to jerk it up rather than lift.
  • chrisrc131
    chrisrc131 Posts: 45 Member
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    You know, shoulders are complex and sometimes shockingly delicate joints. I've torn both of my rotator cuffs in the past (in non-lifting circumstances) but I do standing OHP with a barbell in large part because I find the bar gives me stability and forces me to push up evenly on both sides in a way that dumbells don't. I think the main reason beginning strength programs focus on the OHP is because, although form is important, it isn't all that complicated and because when strength is your goal big numbers and constant progression are key. That's easier to achieve with the OHP than with an arnold press or similar. Still, do what works for you, absolutely.

    His complaints about the deadlift on the other hand I do have some issues with:

    There's nothing wrong with Romanian deadlifts, but the limited range of motion compared to conventional focuses on the hamstrings and glutes almost exclusively. They're great at that, but recruit almost no effort from the quads or adductors that you get from the lower portion of the conventional. If we're talking strictly about strain on tendons, I'd be surprised if stopping at the bottom of a Romanian deadlift and starting back up really results in less strain than starting from a dead stop. I know that's one of the arguments against partial-depth squats, they actually put more stress on your joints than going to full depth because of the effort involved in stopping the weight in that position.

    Touch and go deadlifts, where you complete the full range of motion from a conventional deadlift without resetting at the bottom seem to introduce more problems than resetting for each rep. It's too easy to let your form slip on the eccentric phase. I mean, technically, the eccentric phase isn't a part of the exercise, but if you aren't dropping the bar from the top like a competition lifter then you have to maintain your posture perfectly and be sure not to release any of the tension in your core before pulling again. Watch video of even very experienced lifters and see how many really manage that. Personally, I need a one or two second pause on the ground between reps to gasp for air and reset my grip if nothing else.

    You're right that stiff-legged deadlifts aren't really a part of this conversation but they aren't a 'stretch'. They're a lower back exercise. Despite the similar general motion to deadlifts, the form is different and they belong in a conversation with good mornings or back extensions not conventional or romanian deadlifts.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
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    This guy knows what he's talking about though. He told me the kinseology aspect of his reasoning. Even offered to draw me a picture. So does conventional dead-lifting tear your tendons? Judging from your guys' responses, I'm guessing it doesn't, but can someone tell me why it doesn't?

    The burden of proof is not upon the thousands of people doing full reps with deadlifts with no adverse results. It's on Joe Trainer who is making the outlandish claim. The DEADlift is a lift that is supposed to be performed from a DEAD stop. That means relieving tension at the bottom and lifting it again from the ground.

    The only way in which an overhead barbell press is superior to db presses is that the stability from the barbell allows you to move more weight, which creates a stronger training response. I also don't know anyone who has suffered from properly performing OHP. It's important to lock it all the way out at the top, for sure. If you haven't read Starting Strength, do yourself a favor and do so.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
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    Does anyone have any tips for the standing shoulder press? How do I make it so that my lower back isn't stressed? Do I just lower the weight? Tighten my back?

    Any lifting movement beyond isolation machines should begin with taking a deep breath, getting your spine in the position you want, and pushing as much tension as you can manage into your core. People talk about "breathing into your belly" to describe this. It creates a ton of intraabdominal pressure that helps keep your spine in position throughout the repetition. This is what weight lifting belts are for. It gives you something to push against, which increases that pressure.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    Conventional Deadlifts are superior to RDLs because RDL is an assistance lift, not a main lift. It's like comparing chin-ups and curls, sure they both work biceps, but you get a hell of a lot more out of a chin-up. A conventional Deadlift will work more muscle groups, and lead to more strength and power gains than an RDL. and RDL is great for glute/hamstring assistance work, but not as a replacement for a conventional Deadlift.

    As for OHP, I've never heard about it causing problems when done properly. I've heard it fixes shoulder problems, but unless you're doing it wrong, I don't really see how it would injure you.

    This trainer pretty much sounds clueless.
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
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    You know, shoulders are complex and sometimes shockingly delicate joints. I've torn both of my rotator cuffs in the past (in non-lifting circumstances) but I do standing OHP with a barbell in large part because I find the bar gives me stability and forces me to push up evenly on both sides in a way that dumbells don't. I think the main reason beginning strength programs focus on the OHP is because, although form is important, it isn't all that complicated and because when strength is your goal big numbers and constant progression are key. That's easier to achieve with the OHP than with an arnold press or similar. Still, do what works for you, absolutely.

    His complaints about the deadlift on the other hand I do have some issues with:

    There's nothing wrong with Romanian deadlifts, but the limited range of motion compared to conventional focuses on the hamstrings and glutes almost exclusively. They're great at that, but recruit almost no effort from the quads or adductors that you get from the lower portion of the conventional. If we're talking strictly about strain on tendons, I'd be surprised if stopping at the bottom of a Romanian deadlift and starting back up really results in less strain than starting from a dead stop. I know that's one of the arguments against partial-depth squats, they actually put more stress on your joints than going to full depth because of the effort involved in stopping the weight in that position.

    Touch and go deadlifts, where you complete the full range of motion from a conventional deadlift without resetting at the bottom seem to introduce more problems than resetting for each rep. It's too easy to let your form slip on the eccentric phase. I mean, technically, the eccentric phase isn't a part of the exercise, but if you aren't dropping the bar from the top like a competition lifter then you have to maintain your posture perfectly and be sure not to release any of the tension in your core before pulling again. Watch video of even very experienced lifters and see how many really manage that. Personally, I need a one or two second pause on the ground between reps to gasp for air and reset my grip if nothing else.

    You're right that stiff-legged deadlifts aren't really a part of this conversation but they aren't a 'stretch'. They're a lower back exercise. Despite the similar general motion to deadlifts, the form is different and they belong in a conversation with good mornings or back extensions not conventional or romanian deadlifts.

    I heart this post. Everything I wanted to say and more.

    I too have a criminally effed up shoulder and have found the Barbell OHP to be a better exercise for me than dumbbell presses (which I gave up after continually feeling "twinges"). It's most likely personal to the lifter and their (if any) anatomical foibles. If you can derive benefit from a pressing variant, still continue to keep getting stronger and (most importantly) don't injure yourself, then stick with it.

    OP: As for the Deads. Touch and go is ok if your form is perfect and you're using something submaximal (ie a challenging warmup for reps, or something for speedwork), but good luck with touch-and-go when you're pulling near your maximum! As the above poster says, you need to get everything set and braced again for the next pull.

    Perhaps the trainer wants to keep you lifting sub-maximally so wants you to stick with touch-and-go for reps or RDL? We also don't know what particular kinks in your DL form you may have that this trainer may have picked up on. Perhaps he's misguidedly trying to save you from yourself rather than fixing your form? Maybe he doesn't even know what good form is? Too many things could be going on here (as well as him whoring for extra training sessions...)
  • Myhaloslipped
    Myhaloslipped Posts: 4,317 Member
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    I have recently fallen in love with the OHP. Love it!
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
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    As for OHP, I've never heard about it causing problems when done properly. I've heard it fixes shoulder problems, but unless you're doing it wrong, I don't really see how it would injure you.

    This has been my experience. Coupled with TGU's and Windmills, I now have a healthy (as it'll ever get) shoulder again. It always tweaks my antennae when someone says it messes up your shoulders since my (admittedly n=1) experience has been the opposite.

    But then I acknowledge other people's shoulder problems may not be my shoulder problems....
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
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    Does anyone have any tips for the standing shoulder press? How do I make it so that my lower back isn't stressed? Do I just lower the weight? Tighten my back?

    Any lifting movement beyond isolation machines should begin with taking a deep breath, getting your spine in the position you want, and pushing as much tension as you can manage into your core. People talk about "breathing into your belly" to describe this. It creates a ton of intraabdominal pressure that helps keep your spine in position throughout the repetition. This is what weight lifting belts are for. It gives you something to push against, which increases that pressure.

    agreed with the tightening of your core. a weight lifting belt is great. i like the small 2" belt for a lot of movements. holding your breath for the entire reps is also good.

    also, bring the barbell all the way back down. don't do half reps. the overhead press is more than an exercise. it is a movement. your body was designed for full ranges of motion. keep your legs strong and taut through the movement, and the lower back arched and the chest up.
  • My_Own_Worst_Enemy
    My_Own_Worst_Enemy Posts: 218 Member
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    Seated dumbell shoulder press all the way! But thats just me, if standing overhead press works best for you then do it.

    ^^ THIS. I prefer standing overhead for my entire body (legs, core etc) to be engaged in the workout, but when I wanna just concentrate on the shoulders seated shoulder press is for me. It all depends what your goal is and what works for you. Deadlifts: Agree on that. Just imagine racking the weight and then unracking every time you did a squat, bent over row or bench press. Thats a lot of unnecessary stress on your joints relieving itself of weight, then adding it back quickly. Have you noticed any pain from doing it that way so far?

    It also depends on the OHP. Are you bringing the bar behind the neck or in front? I always lower the bar in front of my face, not behind the head. Because I have shoulder issues going too heavy behind the head really stresses my shoulder joint out. If I didnt have injured shoulders who knows it if would even bother me? I just dont know. All I know is what works and doesnt work for me.

    Which brings me to the point of your community fitness trainer. He probably doesnt like stronglifts cause its a program he views as sucking for him?. Stronglifts: Its not for everyone, but lots of people have enjoyed success and happiness doing it. So from that perspective, it doesnt suck, its awesome.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    I just read a really interesting article about the thoracic/lumbar region (T11/T12?) locking completely in certain movements- locked- completely not move-able and loaded- this happens in a few exercises- the snatch- clean and press- push press- over head press- you see the trend here.

    I'll try to find the write up- it was well written and it was pertaining to the broken back accident with the snatch a week or so ago.

    His theory was that the guys' back already had an issue- but regardless- it had to do with the fact that that area is FULLY loaded- compressed and rigid during these movements.

    Now- with proper form- it's possible to perform them- but that doesn't mean there isn't an opening for injury- that's a side effect of lifting heavy things. Like someone said- it's a risk driving a car that you may be in a catastrophic accident. If you don't' like dem odds- don't drive the car- same with lifting weights.



    As far as the dead lift is concerned- it's just two different things. It is neither right or wrong. It's just two different things.

    One- you release a certain amount of body tension when you let the weight come to full rest on the floor- this is why the first pull is harder than a second pull.

    It is what it is- I think it's more important to understand what's going on and use it in your training rather than saying THIS WAY IS BETTER. Because that's dependent on goals.... It's like saying a hammer is better than a screwdriver- well inheirently they aren't. Sure a hammer is better for nails- but that doesn't mean a screw driver is a bad tool.
    They are tools. That's all. Tools. know what the tools are in your tool bag- and how to use them and what purpose they serve.
  • SrJoben
    SrJoben Posts: 484 Member
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    However, he did say that the overhead press is a dangerous exercise, mainly because it forces your bones into a locked position, which is unnatural, and may lead to rotator cuff injuries; it is really bad for your shoulders. I don't remember his exact words, and I may be waaayyy off regarding what he said, but the main point is that some people may do the overhead press their entire lives and not have any injuries (like Mehdi - creator of Stronglifts), but for others it isn't the same. He says that I should replace the overhead press with dumbbell shoulder press (standing shoulder press, not seated I'm assuming, else it wouldn't be a compound exercise)? He says that overhead press is not superior to dumbbell shoulder press in any way, and that is a fact.


    As he is wont to do Mark Rippetoe covers this in some detail in Starting Strength. Here is an abbreviated version of him addressing the issue of supposed shoulder injury caused by the press.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-rippetoe/the-overhead-press_b_4550676.html

    TL:DR: "The press simply cannot impinge your shoulders."
  • Jess1caLe
    Jess1caLe Posts: 31 Member
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    You know, shoulders are complex and sometimes shockingly delicate joints. I've torn both of my rotator cuffs in the past (in non-lifting circumstances) but I do standing OHP with a barbell in large part because I find the bar gives me stability and forces me to push up evenly on both sides in a way that dumbells don't. I think the main reason beginning strength programs focus on the OHP is because, although form is important, it isn't all that complicated and because when strength is your goal big numbers and constant progression are key. That's easier to achieve with the OHP than with an arnold press or similar. Still, do what works for you, absolutely.

    His complaints about the deadlift on the other hand I do have some issues with:

    There's nothing wrong with Romanian deadlifts, but the limited range of motion compared to conventional focuses on the hamstrings and glutes almost exclusively. They're great at that, but recruit almost no effort from the quads or adductors that you get from the lower portion of the conventional. If we're talking strictly about strain on tendons, I'd be surprised if stopping at the bottom of a Romanian deadlift and starting back up really results in less strain than starting from a dead stop. I know that's one of the arguments against partial-depth squats, they actually put more stress on your joints than going to full depth because of the effort involved in stopping the weight in that position.

    Touch and go deadlifts, where you complete the full range of motion from a conventional deadlift without resetting at the bottom seem to introduce more problems than resetting for each rep. It's too easy to let your form slip on the eccentric phase. I mean, technically, the eccentric phase isn't a part of the exercise, but if you aren't dropping the bar from the top like a competition lifter then you have to maintain your posture perfectly and be sure not to release any of the tension in your core before pulling again. Watch video of even very experienced lifters and see how many really manage that. Personally, I need a one or two second pause on the ground between reps to gasp for air and reset my grip if nothing else.

    You're right that stiff-legged deadlifts aren't really a part of this conversation but they aren't a 'stretch'. They're a lower back exercise. Despite the similar general motion to deadlifts, the form is different and they belong in a conversation with good mornings or back extensions not conventional or romanian deadlifts.

    I heart this post. Everything I wanted to say and more.

    I too have a criminally effed up shoulder and have found the Barbell OHP to be a better exercise for me than dumbbell presses (which I gave up after continually feeling "twinges"). It's most likely personal to the lifter and their (if any) anatomical foibles. If you can derive benefit from a pressing variant, still continue to keep getting stronger and (most importantly) don't injure yourself, then stick with it.

    OP: As for the Deads. Touch and go is ok if your form is perfect and you're using something submaximal (ie a challenging warmup for reps, or something for speedwork), but good luck with touch-and-go when you're pulling near your maximum! As the above poster says, you need to get everything set and braced again for the next pull.

    Perhaps the trainer wants to keep you lifting sub-maximally so wants you to stick with touch-and-go for reps or RDL? We also don't know what particular kinks in your DL form you may have that this trainer may have picked up on. Perhaps he's misguidedly trying to save you from yourself rather than fixing your form? Maybe he doesn't even know what good form is? Too many things could be going on here (as well as him whoring for extra training sessions...)

    Double bumps for these two posts.

    I guess before you can really find an answer that suits you, you need to ask your trainer what his goal is for you and if it differs from your actual needs. A lot of this is perspective and everyone is different in likes/dislikes and abilities. I'm sure he has his best concerns for you, but a lot of trainers have a bias on exercises and programs.

    Personally, I'm ok with the RDL from the ground. I only do touch and goes on warm-ups with lighter weights. As for OHP, it's all in form and stability. I struggle with it so I'm putting myself at risk of injuring myself. So it's back to seated OHP vs. standing OHP.