Gain muscle AND lose fat?
fast_eddie_72
Posts: 719 Member
is it possible to do both at the same time? Or if you are eating at a calorie deficit, is it not possible to build muscle. I've seen conflicting information, but the ones who kinda sound most informed seem to think you have to be at a calorie surplus to build muscle. And when I think about that, it seems to make sense. It's possible I'm misunderstanding, though.
I'm eating a 500 calorie a day deficit and working out at least 5 days a week. Three of those days are running because I'm training for a half marathon. The other two days are doing silly looking exercises with a personal trainer. Burpees, push ups, sit ups, some weights. Dunno. I know I'm stronger than I was when I started and I know I'm losing weight. But I'd like to build some upper body muscle. Do I need to focus on getting my fat down, then up my calories before I try the weights? Or is there a way to do both?
I'm eating a 500 calorie a day deficit and working out at least 5 days a week. Three of those days are running because I'm training for a half marathon. The other two days are doing silly looking exercises with a personal trainer. Burpees, push ups, sit ups, some weights. Dunno. I know I'm stronger than I was when I started and I know I'm losing weight. But I'd like to build some upper body muscle. Do I need to focus on getting my fat down, then up my calories before I try the weights? Or is there a way to do both?
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You can do what is called body recomposition. It's exactly what it sounds like. You eat at around your maintenance, lift heavy weights and your fat goes while muscle comes. The catch (there's always a catch isn't there?) is that it's slower than bulk/cutting cycles. If that doesn't ring a bell, cutting is being at a calorie deficit while still lifting weights (= maximum fat loss minimum muscle loss), and bulking is at a calorie surplus while lifting weights (= muscle gains).
Personally, I've been cutting since August/September to get rid of my belly.0 -
Possible yes. Probable on calorie deficit? Low probability. Building muscle requires a few things: progressive overload on the muscle, high volume training (multiple sets with moderate reps) and higher protein intake (since muscle can only be built with protein).is it possible to do both at the same time? Or if you are eating at a calorie deficit, is it not possible to build muscle. I've seen conflicting information, but the ones who kinda sound most informed seem to think you have to be at a calorie surplus to build muscle. And when I think about that, it seems to make sense. It's possible I'm misunderstanding, though.
I'm eating a 500 calorie a day deficit and working out at least 5 days a week. Three of those days are running because I'm training for a half marathon. The other two days are doing silly looking exercises with a personal trainer. Burpees, push ups, sit ups, some weights. Dunno. I know I'm stronger than I was when I started and I know I'm losing weight. But I'd like to build some upper body muscle. Do I need to focus on getting my fat down, then up my calories before I try the weights? Or is there a way to do both?
The program you're doing now won't result in any muscle gain. Muscle strength and endurance yes.
As to losing fat, it's almost improbable that you can do it without having a calorie deficit even if it's low. It's possible, but it's a long term process.
So how much time you willing to wait?
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To build muscle requires you to be anabolic...just as building fat requires you to be anabolic. When you are in a deficit, you are chronically catabolic which is why you lose fat (and in the absence of resistance training you can also lose significant amounts of muscle).
You aren't going to really build muscle in a deficit...you will preserve what you have...you will make strength gains (increasing mass is not required) and your composition will change for the better (your muscles that you have will pop more), but you will not pack on muscle in a calorie deficit.
Once you drop your BF down you can either opt for a bulk or just eat to maintenance and hit the weight room. I personally don't need to bulk and I've done a nice re-comp over the last 9 months or so just eating to maintenance and lifting. But yeah...if you really wanted to put on some mass you would have to do a slow bulk with a small calorie surplus (to minimize fat gain).0 -
Bump. I'd like to see the responses on this. Another question to throw in the thread (if you don't care OP) if I'm lifting and doing things like squats etc will the existing fat in those places turn to muscle while on a calorie deficit? For example, I'd like to keep my butt the size it is just an improved version of it. Will this work the way I think it will or am I way off base here?0
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Bumping!0
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Bump. I'd like to see the responses on this. Another question to throw in the thread (if you don't care OP) if I'm lifting and doing things like squats etc will the existing fat in those places turn to muscle while on a calorie deficit? For example, I'd like to keep my butt the size it is just an improved version of it. Will this work the way I think it will or am I way off base here?
no...fat does not turn into muscle...if it did, I'd be a world class body builder by now. you cannot spot reduce fat...your fat reduction will be a result of a deficit of energy, not the particular exercise(s) you do. use your diet for weight control; exercise for fitness.
what will ultimately happen is that the fat will be reduced and the actual muscle underneath will be revealed...to many people's amazement, they actually have quite a bit of muscle underneath that slab of fat...which is usually why they think they are building muscle...reality is they are just uncovering that muscle and letting the world finally see it.0 -
This may be one of the better discussions I've read in while.
I am in the same boat as others here. I need to cut the fat first before I can build muscle. I generally lift low weight and do lots of reps for that reason. I'm not sure I really want to bulk up anyway. I'm just not dedicated to going to the gym and lifting. I go there to balance out sitting at a desk all day.
Keep it up.0 -
I'd suggest you listen to Lyle's explanation:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html0 -
Thanks everyone. That seems to confirm what I thought was right. I'm going to stick to what I'm doing for now and try to whittle this fat down before I start trying to build muscle. And by all means, feel free to ask any related questions.
I'll have a bunch of questions in a few months when I get the fat closer to where I want to be and start thinking about transitioning to building a little muscle.I'd suggest you listen to Lyle's explanation:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
Super helpful article! Thanks.0 -
Bump. I'd like to see the responses on this. Another question to throw in the thread (if you don't care OP) if I'm lifting and doing things like squats etc will the existing fat in those places turn to muscle while on a calorie deficit? For example, I'd like to keep my butt the size it is just an improved version of it. Will this work the way I think it will or am I way off base here?
Fat and muscle are two different molecules so the short answer is NO. If you are on a deficit and training muscle groups then as the fat stores comes off that part of your body, the muscle training you have been doing in that area will become better defined. Also, there is no such thing as spot reduction. You lose weight from your body as your body decides to let it go. We have no control of that. However, we can train specific muscles for better muscle development in different areas.0 -
This may be one of the better discussions I've read in while.
I am in the same boat as others here. I need to cut the fat first before I can build muscle. I generally lift low weight and do lots of reps for that reason. I'm not sure I really want to bulk up anyway. I'm just not dedicated to going to the gym and lifting. I go there to balance out sitting at a desk all day.
Keep it up.
Many reps of low weight really does not accomplish a lot. You don't necessarily have to rip your arms out of their sockets either but fewer reps of a bit more aggressive weight will do more to improve your strength and endurance. If you are on a calorie deficit, you don't have to worry much about bulking up anyway. Best wishes on every success.0 -
This may be one of the better discussions I've read in while.
I am in the same boat as others here. I need to cut the fat first before I can build muscle. I generally lift low weight and do lots of reps for that reason. I'm not sure I really want to bulk up anyway. I'm just not dedicated to going to the gym and lifting. I go there to balance out sitting at a desk all day.
Keep it up.
Many reps of low weight really does not accomplish a lot. You don't necessarily have to rip your arms out of their sockets either but fewer reps of a bit more aggressive weight will do more to improve your strength and endurance. If you are on a calorie deficit, you don't have to worry much about bulking up anyway. Best wishes on every success.
More great info. Thanks! How do you figure out where to start with weights? I guess just kinda give it a shot? Is there, like, a test - like a range of reps you should be able to do before you can't do any more to kind of figure out a good starting place?0 -
Do both and see what happens. I can't see why my excess calories I am wearing can't be used to build muscle. The one thing I regret was to not do strength training as I lost weight. I would be so much farther ahead if I had.0
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As far as where to start, it's really up to you. You could start with a program such as 5x5, but if you're brand new I'd just suggest taking a couple weeks or so to learn the key lifts and work on your form before diving into a strict routine. As far as the weight goes, just start with a light weight and emphasize proper form. Move up in weight on your later sets and you'll quickly figure out what your current limitations are. If and when you do start a formal program, they'll start you off pretty light on all of your lifts and increase on a weekly basis.0
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I have read that you should not be able to do more than 8-10 reps with a weight. That is the max that you should be working with. When you are capable of reps that exceed that number, move up. But just a little. From my very limited experience, moving up just a little at a time is more important than tearing it up with big differences. I am also new at weight training and am trying to learn how to maximize my work.0
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Bump. I'd like to see the responses on this. Another question to throw in the thread (if you don't care OP) if I'm lifting and doing things like squats etc will the existing fat in those places turn to muscle while on a calorie deficit? For example, I'd like to keep my butt the size it is just an improved version of it. Will this work the way I think it will or am I way off base here?
no...fat does not turn into muscle...if it did, I'd be a world class body builder by now. you cannot spot reduce fat...your fat reduction will be a result of a deficit of energy, not the particular exercise(s) you do. use your diet for weight control; exercise for fitness.
what will ultimately happen is that the fat will be reduced and the actual muscle underneath will be revealed...to many people's amazement, they actually have quite a bit of muscle underneath that slab of fat...which is usually why they think they are building muscle...reality is they are just uncovering that muscle and letting the world finally see it.
This is a great explanation. Thank you! I actually understand it now! :laugh: I also really do need to add some type of weight training to avoid muscle loss. I think I have a ways to go before that happens but no time like the present.0 -
Fat can't turn to muscle. You can reduce the amount of fat around a muscle and look more muscular though.Bump. I'd like to see the responses on this. Another question to throw in the thread (if you don't care OP) if I'm lifting and doing things like squats etc will the existing fat in those places turn to muscle while on a calorie deficit? For example, I'd like to keep my butt the size it is just an improved version of it. Will this work the way I think it will or am I way off base here?
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
As far as I understand it (which isn't very far) the body uses macro nutrients to restore glycogen and rebuild muscle fibers first, and then converts the excess into fat stores which are energy that can be stored/retrieved in the future. If that's the case, why wouldn't you be able to build muscle while losing fat on a net loss of calories? I've heard people say that your body starts consuming muscle for energy, but I've never heard that outside the context of bro science. And it wouldn't seem to make much sense, why would the body break down muscle before fat?
It would appear to me that even on a calorie deficit, any incoming nutrients would be used to restore glycogen and rebuild muscle before building and new fat stores.
I full admit that this is all supposition and bro-science and you shouldn't pay any attention to it.0 -
You'll be building muscle endurance with low weights and high reps. You can DEFINITELY lose fat on a low rep, high weight program too. Losing fat comes down more to how much you're consuming vs how much your burning off. Also, with clients, I've found their body composition to be much better on a heavy weight regimen vs a light weight high rep regimen.This may be one of the better discussions I've read in while.
I am in the same boat as others here. I need to cut the fat first before I can build muscle. I generally lift low weight and do lots of reps for that reason. I'm not sure I really want to bulk up anyway. I'm just not dedicated to going to the gym and lifting. I go there to balance out sitting at a desk all day.
Keep it up.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
With clients I introduce them to the exercise by example, have them do it with light or no weight to see how it feels and so I can make any adjustments (they could get injured doing adjustments with a challenging weight), then we use resistance where they can complete a set of 10 reps with some degree of difficulty. From there I just keep bumping the weights when 10 seems quite easy for them. And eventually I change their program to fit whatever goal they are trying to reach.This may be one of the better discussions I've read in while.
I am in the same boat as others here. I need to cut the fat first before I can build muscle. I generally lift low weight and do lots of reps for that reason. I'm not sure I really want to bulk up anyway. I'm just not dedicated to going to the gym and lifting. I go there to balance out sitting at a desk all day.
Keep it up.
Many reps of low weight really does not accomplish a lot. You don't necessarily have to rip your arms out of their sockets either but fewer reps of a bit more aggressive weight will do more to improve your strength and endurance. If you are on a calorie deficit, you don't have to worry much about bulking up anyway. Best wishes on every success.
More great info. Thanks! How do you figure out where to start with weights? I guess just kinda give it a shot? Is there, like, a test - like a range of reps you should be able to do before you can't do any more to kind of figure out a good starting place?
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
As mentioned, the body is working in either an anabolic (building) or catabolic (tearing down) state. They don't do both simultaneously. Part of the reason why it's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit.Do both and see what happens. I can't see why my excess calories I am wearing can't be used to build muscle. The one thing I regret was to not do strength training as I lost weight. I would be so much farther ahead if I had.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
There are a few types of people who can build muscle (albeit just a little) on calorie deficit due to their disposition. They would be:As far as I understand it (which isn't very far) the body uses macro nutrients to restore glycogen and rebuild muscle fibers first, and then converts the excess into fat stores which are energy that can be stored/retrieved in the future. If that's the case, why wouldn't you be able to build muscle while losing fat on a net loss of calories? I've heard people say that your body starts consuming muscle for energy, but I've never heard that outside the context of bro science. And it wouldn't seem to make much sense, why would the body break down muscle before fat?
It would appear to me that even on a calorie deficit, any incoming nutrients would be used to restore glycogen and rebuild muscle before building and new fat stores.
I full admit that this is all supposition and bro-science and you shouldn't pay any attention to it.
Extremely overweight/obese
Returning athlete after a long layoff
Newbie who's never lifted before
Other than that, as I mentioned in an earlier post, it's not just going to be about macronutrients. If that were true then females should be able to get as big a males. Hormones and the state of your body (anabolic/catabolic) will dictate if you're going to also put on muscle or not. Again, anabolic is a building state, and catabolic is a reducing state. Since deficit is considered a reducing state, there's not going to be much muscle building going on.
A great example is that of competitive body builders. If it was just macronutrients (without surplusing here) then theoretically they should be able to gain muscle while staying cut at 9% or less. Even with PED's, they can't do it. Mind you these are people who's only goal is to put on more muscle, so you'd think they apply it if it worked since it usually takes them a good 12 weeks to "cut" for a competition. It would be so much easier if they didn't have to go through it (and they don't if they just want to stay the same size), but haven't seen or heard of anyone yet being able to do this with significant muscle gain.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
At last, a thread that I can relate to!
I've been eating at a small deficit for the last few months now - am also training for endurance - offroad duathlons of approx 25-40k and I also have been following a stronglift 5x5 program.
I have lost loads of weight and now look like I have put muscle on. I would say that I have probably kept a decent portion of my muscle as I was eating high protein and lifting the weights - I am very much stronger that I was 6 months ago.
Looking in the mirror I have a defined six pack (lol - such a simple measurement of success) and I look so much more well built than I used to even though I might have lost some bulk - what is left is stronger and easier to see.
I have just about plateau'd at 12st8ish - 79 ish kilo - 180lbs is - and am not planning to lose any more but to take the slow route to recomp even though the temptation is there to eat a lot, lift a lot and get bulky! Must resist...
So - I say you can become stronger, look more well built and be perfectly awesome on a deficit - and I would go ahead and lose the excess weight and fat first, before you then decide to bulk up - as you'll find that by the time you can see your ix pack then all your other muscle definition will be so much clearer it will look like you have more muscle too.0 -
Very usual info in this thread. Thanks all.0
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I watched a video yesterday on YouTube explaining that you can lose belly fat quicker by gaining muscle, in the same way a car with a big engine consumes petrol more quickly than one with a smaller engine.
I am no expert to comment on this realy but it is worth a go I suppose.0 -
I watched a video yesterday on YouTube explaining that you can lose belly fat quicker by gaining muscle, in the same way a car with a big engine consumes petrol more quickly than one with a smaller engine.
I am no expert to comment on this realy but it is worth a go I suppose.
If you have more muscle then you burn more calories as your basal rate is higher.
Your fuel consumption at idle is higher..if you want an engine analogy
edit to add -- but not "just" belly fat - you cannot decide where to lose the fat...doesn't work like that0 -
More great info. Thanks! How do you figure out where to start with weights? I guess just kinda give it a shot? Is there, like, a test - like a range of reps you should be able to do before you can't do any more to kind of figure out a good starting place?
If your primary goal is to preserve existing muscle while you lose fat, then you want to train in a higher intensity (more challenging for you) rep range, and ideally with compound lifts that will stimulate lots of accessory muscles at once. Higher weight, lower reps, full body workouts. This tells your body that, despite the fact that you're not getting adequate fuel, you are still engaging in activity that requires all of your muscle potential. It helps keep from burning away muscle as well as fat while you're losing.
I always recommend picking up the book Starting Strength and looking into that program for beginners.0 -
I watched a video yesterday on YouTube explaining that you can lose belly fat quicker by gaining muscle, in the same way a car with a big engine consumes petrol more quickly than one with a smaller engine.
I am no expert to comment on this realy but it is worth a go I suppose.
Be aware that this effect is very small and is not something you should bank on to allow you to eat significantly more. Lyle McDonald mentions this in some of his articles on his site (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/). He has good, down to earth and realistic info on his site. If you're interested in knowing what actually works I, like others in this thread, recommend cruising Lyle's site. I have been around 10% body fat at 155 lbs and at 185 lbs and can tell you that, for me, the extra muscle didn't allow me to be loose with my eating habits.
As for the original question, Lyle does have a bit on losing fat/gaining muscle within a short period of time (a week, in this case) in his Ultimate Diet 2.0 book. Basically you cycle calorie deficits and surpluses through the week coordinated with different types of exercise. As stated above, however, this is slower than dedicating longer periods to bulk and lean.0 -
The body does not behave in such a precise manner. You can actually oscillate between anabolic and catabolic states (and you often do).
Have a look into 'leangains' if you want to lose fat and put on muscle at the same time.
Is it as fast as bulking? no. But in my opinion it is a much healthier approach, where you do not have to go through cutting phases.0 -
What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.0
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