Strength Gains vs. Size Gains

AshwinA7
AshwinA7 Posts: 102 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
"Strength gains do not equal size gains"

This is another one of those statements that I hear quite a bit and so I automatically have a certain skepticism towards it.

Considering that the purpose of more muscle is to increase strength, I find it hard to believe that the two could really that different. Are there any studies that show size gains are not equal to strength gains or vice versa?
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Replies

  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16464122

    You can make substantial strength gains without increasing mass...at some point you have to increase mass too, but you can make phenomenal strength gains without gaining appreciable mass.

    I push and pull quite a bit more weight than some of my fellow, more jacked friends at the gym because I train for strength gains.
  • Fithealthyforlife
    Fithealthyforlife Posts: 866 Member
    I don't have personal experience with this yet, b/c I haven't been at it very long, but my guess is that once you start deadlifting over 200 or so (for a guy) you have to increase in size.

    (And if you don't increase in size, it will be due to not eating enough, and I doubt you'll ever be able to get above a certain level in terms of weight lifted if that were the case.)

    But maybe it's possible that some people have a higher than average capacity to increase their strength without increasing muscle size and calories consumed...I don't know. But there are some pretty strong powerfliters out there, anyway.
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
    Genetics are involved, but can be decently strong relative to body weight without being particularly large. Double bodyweight squats and such don't require a lot of muscle.
  • Fithealthyforlife
    Fithealthyforlife Posts: 866 Member
    Type of training also matters as well...bodybuilders work out for size.
  • somefitsomefat
    somefitsomefat Posts: 445 Member
    Genetics are involved, but can be decently strong relative to body weight without being particularly large. Double bodyweight squats and such don't require a lot of muscle.

    LOL I'm 242lbs but can't squat 484 :(
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
    Genetics are involved, but can be decently strong relative to body weight without being particularly large. Double bodyweight squats and such don't require a lot of muscle.

    LOL I'm 242lbs but can't squat 484 :(

    I'm guessing you aren't particularly lean, or you're abnormally tall? I should clarify for normal, fit male body. If you're 242 and ripped, 484 should be doable. If you're 7'0, maybe not.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    Genetics are involved, but can be decently strong relative to body weight without being particularly large. Double bodyweight squats and such don't require a lot of muscle.

    LOL I'm 242lbs but can't squat 484 :(

    can't squat 480 *yet*
  • contingencyplan
    contingencyplan Posts: 3,639 Member
    Strength is a product of the muscle and nervous system working together. Depending on how you train is possible for one to increase while the other stays pretty stagnant. Many people who train mainly for size end up having this happen. They train the muscles but ignore the types of training that stimulate the nervous system's capacity for strength to grow along with the muscle.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    Strength is a product of the muscle and nervous system working together. Depending on how you train is possible for one to increase while the other stays pretty stagnant. Many people who train mainly for size end up having this happen. They train the muscles but ignore the types of training that stimulate the nervous system's capacity for strength to grow along with the muscle.

    to be fair- big body building guys aren't weak. they just aren't power lifter strong. But they are by no means weak.
  • somefitsomefat
    somefitsomefat Posts: 445 Member
    Genetics are involved, but can be decently strong relative to body weight without being particularly large. Double bodyweight squats and such don't require a lot of muscle.

    LOL I'm 242lbs but can't squat 484 :(

    can't squat 480 *yet*

    LOL fair enough. My ideal weight would be 210 so I'll knock it down to 420 on the ultimate squate goal. Realistically above 300 would be nice.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    LOL fair enough. My ideal weight would be 210 so I'll knock it down to 420 on the ultimate squate goal. Realistically above 300 would be nice.

    I have a ridiculously shoddy squat- so in my mind everything is "yet"

    I can't do this YET. Always trying to look on the up and up!!! :D
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
    to be fair- big body building guys aren't weak. they just aren't power lifter strong. But they are by no means weak.

    That's fair. Big muscles are above average strength no matter what. They're leaving a lot of strength on the table though. Can train the mass and see huge gains.
  • contingencyplan
    contingencyplan Posts: 3,639 Member
    Strength is a product of the muscle and nervous system working together. Depending on how you train is possible for one to increase while the other stays pretty stagnant. Many people who train mainly for size end up having this happen. They train the muscles but ignore the types of training that stimulate the nervous system's capacity for strength to grow along with the muscle.

    to be fair- big body building guys aren't weak. they just aren't power lifter strong. But they are by no means weak.

    wasn't saying they are weak, just that unless specific training parameters are observed strength gains won't be proportional to size gains. It'll still increase though.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
    Strength gains come from neuromuscular adaptation. An untrained person new to lifting will see phenomenal strength gains, as your CNS (central nervous system) generally doesn't use all available muscle for day to day activity. Using 100% contractile force of every muscle fiber in your biceps to lift a can of soda up for a drink would most likely end up with you smacking yourself in the face, painfully.

    When you start lifting, your CNS goes to work at first just doing what it does, using the same amount of muscle it always does. As you lift a heavy weight (relatively) you struggle, and your CNS realizes that the normal won't work. So on your rest day, your CNS quickly goes to work, adding new nerve endings (innervating) to muscle that doesn't get used much to increase efficiency, allowing more fibers to be recruited at once, which makes that heavy weight from Monday feel lighter on Wednesday, with no new muscle added. Your body also takes the opportunity to increase muscle glycogen storage in the muscles that were being worked. More glycogen means more strength and endurance.

    This process continues until all available fibers are recruited. Once that point is reached, the only way to get stronger is through hypertrophy, or muscle growth, which is a very slow process compared to CNS adaptation.

    This is why people that start lifting will see their maxes skyrocket in the first year or so, but then struggle to add 5 pounds to their max after a couple years.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    I don't have personal experience with this yet, b/c I haven't been at it very long, but my guess is that once you start deadlifting over 200 or so (for a guy) you have to increase in size.

    (And if you don't increase in size, it will be due to not eating enough, and I doubt you'll ever be able to get above a certain level in terms of weight lifted if that were the case.)

    But maybe it's possible that some people have a higher than average capacity to increase their strength without increasing muscle size and calories consumed...I don't know. But there are some pretty strong powerfliters out there, anyway.

    Nope..I DL 200lbs and will move up Next Wednesday and I wont be increasing the size of my muscles...and I am a woman.
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
    Are there any studies that show size gains are not equal to strength gains or vice versa?

    Studies?

    This is well established common knowledge and our understanding of physiology absolutely agrees with this.
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
    "Strength gains do not equal size gains"

    This is another one of those statements that I hear quite a bit and so I automatically have a certain skepticism towards it.

    Considering that the purpose of more muscle is to increase strength, I find it hard to believe that the two could really that different. Are there any studies that show size gains are not equal to strength gains or vice versa?

    I'm getting smaller and gaining strength. *shrugs*
  • yogicarl
    yogicarl Posts: 1,260 Member
    I welcome this phenomenon as I progress in yoga it is valuable to promote strength without gaining mass. It's a high strength to weight ratio.
  • BarbellApprentice
    BarbellApprentice Posts: 486 Member
    Strength is a product of the muscle and nervous system working together. Depending on how you train is possible for one to increase while the other stays pretty stagnant. Many people who train mainly for size end up having this happen. They train the muscles but ignore the types of training that stimulate the nervous system's capacity for strength to grow along with the muscle.

    Yea, just check out some powerlifting videos on YouTube. Lot of guys out there that are not that big moving huge weights.
  • Tedebearduff
    Tedebearduff Posts: 1,155 Member
    I don't have personal experience with this yet, b/c I haven't been at it very long, but my guess is that once you start deadlifting over 200 or so (for a guy) you have to increase in size.

    (And if you don't increase in size, it will be due to not eating enough, and I doubt you'll ever be able to get above a certain level in terms of weight lifted if that were the case.)

    But maybe it's possible that some people have a higher than average capacity to increase their strength without increasing muscle size and calories consumed...I don't know. But there are some pretty strong powerfliters out there, anyway.

    Why say anything if you don't know ....
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    I don't have personal experience with this yet, b/c I haven't been at it very long, but my guess is that once you start deadlifting over 200 or so (for a guy) you have to increase in size.

    (And if you don't increase in size, it will be due to not eating enough, and I doubt you'll ever be able to get above a certain level in terms of weight lifted if that were the case.)

    But maybe it's possible that some people have a higher than average capacity to increase their strength without increasing muscle size and calories consumed...I don't know. But there are some pretty strong powerfliters out there, anyway.

    Nope..I DL 200lbs and will move up Next Wednesday and I wont be increasing the size of my muscles...and I am a woman.

    *nods*

    I maxed out around 265/275 while on a cut. and that was pretty much 100 lb jump in 6 months maybe?
    On a fairly solid lifting platform (I've been lifting for 10-12 years) that shifted out from general lifting to power lifting
  • husseycd
    husseycd Posts: 814 Member
    At some point it does seem that strength would increase size, but have you ever seen an aerialist? Like the Cirque du Soleil girls? Most are very petite but very, very strong.
  • mjudd1990
    mjudd1990 Posts: 219 Member
    I've heard of myofibrilar vs sarcolemmal hypertrophy as one theory behind this. Higher reps forces more blood into the muscles and stretches the cell membranes (sarcolemma) of the muscle fiber which serves as a stimulus to increase the surface area of the membrane in order to relieve the tension. This makes the muscle larger but won't do anything for strength as the sarcolemma isn't responsible for generating force.

    Myofibrils are the contractile apparatus in the muscle fibers consisting of actin and myosin. If you stress these fibers with heavy weight and low reps then your body will in turn increase the number of myofibrils in order to allow you to contract the muscle harder in the future and lift heavier weight. You could think of this as making the muscle "denser"

    In actuallity it's impossible to just achieve one or the other but you can see why powerlifters who do high weight, low reps wouldn't be as big but will be stronger and bodybuilders will have more mass but will be relatively weaker.
  • Boogage
    Boogage Posts: 739 Member
    Thanks for posting that info mjudd. My muscles are growing doing low weights, high reps but I'm not getting any stronger as I'm not allowed to increase the weights for medical reasons. It's nice to have some science to explain what's going on. My goal is to recomp so I'm ok (alright, I'm a bit sad I can't lift heavy) with just building the muscles and not improving strength too much.
  • TheEffort
    TheEffort Posts: 1,028 Member
    From bodybuilding.com:

    " there is a relationship between size and strength, but strength increases can occur due to other reasons. Just as size increase can occur with a non-linear strength increase." http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm
  • Graelwyn75
    Graelwyn75 Posts: 4,404 Member
    I have done both heavier weights with lower reps, and lighter weights with higher reps. I am actually stronger and leaner now, doing the lower weights, higher reps, than I was doing the opposite.
  • javacafe
    javacafe Posts: 79 Member
    See this video: http://youtu.be/Pr7CjohG9qI

    That is a 554 lb deadlift by a woman who weighs 150 lbs. I wouldn't say she is bulky or "big." But, you may have a different opinion.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    I have done both heavier weights with lower reps, and lighter weights with higher reps. I am actually stronger and leaner now, doing the lower weights, higher reps, than I was doing the opposite.

    are you stronger in the sense you can do more reps or in the sense you can do a heavier weight?


    because those aren't the same thing- doing more of a thing past a certain rep range doesn't make you 'stronger' in the traditional sense of the word. Doing more of a thing just means you can do it longer.

    My dance studio- we do a LOT of rep stuff- because- no weights. We hold stuff for MINUTES- do exercises based on minutes of things- or lengths of a song- it kicks my *kitten*. Every time. But I am stronger than all of those girls combined. If I trained like they did- it would be a different story.
  • yogicarl
    yogicarl Posts: 1,260 Member
    My dance studio- we do a LOT of rep stuff- because- no weights. We hold stuff for MINUTES- do exercises based on minutes of things- or lengths of a song- it kicks my *kitten*. Every time. But I am stronger than all of those girls combined. If I trained like they did- it would be a different story.

    We do something like this in my Yoga classes where we move slowly down from plank to chaturanga dandasana, (a low plank position) through about 20 seconds. We also hold the position at 4, 8, 12, 2, 6 etc inches from the floor according to what the teacher calls out so we get to hold the position at different heights on demand.

    This has enabled me to work through my yoga sessions feeling much stronger than conventional weight training and I think it is partly due to strength gains through the central nervous system being tuned in to the muscles used and partly due to still working towards the muscles' potential for strength gain before they need to increase in mass to build more strength.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    I don't have personal experience with this yet, b/c I haven't been at it very long, but my guess is that once you start deadlifting over 200 or so (for a guy) you have to increase in size.

    (And if you don't increase in size, it will be due to not eating enough, and I doubt you'll ever be able to get above a certain level in terms of weight lifted if that were the case.)

    But maybe it's possible that some people have a higher than average capacity to increase their strength without increasing muscle size and calories consumed...I don't know. But there are some pretty strong powerfliters out there, anyway.

    Nope..I DL 200lbs and will move up Next Wednesday and I wont be increasing the size of my muscles...and I am a woman.

    *nods*

    I maxed out around 265/275 while on a cut. and that was pretty much 100 lb jump in 6 months maybe?
    On a fairly solid lifting platform (I've been lifting for 10-12 years) that shifted out from general lifting to power lifting

    Yup, me too - got to 220 DL on a pretty big deficit before having to increase calories ((try to(put on muscle) and I'm a girl too :)

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