So you'll lose muscle on a vegan diet?
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nm0
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I also get my science from a guy that makes a living being punched in the face.0
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In to check out the links.0
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Having muscle mass is detriminental to that some event - you want as little of ANY sort of mass as possible while having enough muscle for the basics of moving your body.One of them actually does iron man competitions and she's 57 years old. (I love cheese too much to ever be a vegan.)
Compare the thights of these two british cycling olympic gold medal winners I believe....
Endurance athelete:
Sprint athlete:
The former will be considerably less hassle to achieve on a vegan diet!0 -
Robert Cheeke, vegan body builder and president of vegan body building and fitness, doesn't look like he has suffered from the lack of animal proteins.
http://www.organiclifestylemagazine.com/images/issue-1/vegan-curls.jpg0 -
Idiots will yap about protein all day long. Ignore the bros. They say you'll lost muscle, but they have NEVER tried it. Still waiting to lose mine. I have gained strength, not lost it.
Gaining strength and losing or gaining muscle are not directly related. You can theoretically lose muscle ( maybe not a whole lot ) and at the same time gain strength by using the muscle you have more efficiently. Many people confuse gain in strength with muscle gain.0 -
The bottom line is that in general American diets have too much protein and carbs and not enough green veggies. I think we can all agree on that, right?
No we can't. The typical American diet is probably lowish in protein. And it does tend to be high in carbs, but specifically carbs from "highly processed" foods that contain lots of sugar, refined carbs, and minimal nutrients. You're absolutely right about the green veggies part though.0 -
Total chegan here. Never heard the term before, but I love it because it's exactly what I am. Just chiming in to say that I recently discovered hemp hearts, and they have been an awesome source of protein for me. I add them to my green smoothie in the morning or sprinkle them on a salad. 3 tbsp= 10 grams protein, 170 cal, 13g fat.0
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Eating 12 tofu hot dogs a day plus 6 Clif bars and other vegan protein options admittedly left his stomach churning. Once you're there though, it doesn't take as much to sustain.Robert Cheeke, vegan body builder and president of vegan body building and fitness, doesn't look like he has suffered from the lack of animal proteins.
http://www.organiclifestylemagazine.com/images/issue-1/vegan-curls.jpg
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
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Hmmm...no.sort of part-time 80/20 vegan diet
^Have to agree. If your a vegan, your a vegan. Not most of the time, not 80% of the time..you are or you aren't. Now you can have a primarily based vegan diet or whatnot..but that doesn't make you vegan. :laugh:
This!!!!! Maybe you are a pescatarian.0 -
That awkward moment when most vegetables (if not all) are largely carbohydrateIt also doesn't mean to jack up protein levels as if that's what you need to do in order to be healthy. Also, I am not in this to bulk up. That may require something different.
Nor am I vegan or advocating a total vegan diet. But it is possible to get enough nutrients to do so. Can't throw the baby out with the bath water.
I have ditched all meat except for wild caught fish. Oh, and how can I live without a good cheese or a good ravioli. Or a little butter here and there.
The bottom line is that in general American diets have too much protein and carbs and not enough green veggies. I think we can all agree on that, right?
Point = missed. The average american diet contains carbs that are refined and loaded with crap we just don't need. It's cheap, sugary goodness.
Look at the source of the food. And yes, this goes for meat and non-meat sources.
No awkward moments here. Takes a lot more to make me feel awkward
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Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).
Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.
"We observed no significant difference between (omnivorous and vegan) groups for MM (muscle mass), total EAA (essential amino acid) intake, leucine, isoleucine, age and body mass index. However, we observed a significant difference between groups for total dietary protein intake and total energy intake. Despite significant differences in total dietary protein, the EAA intake was not different, indicating that neither the amount nor the quality of protein in these diets was a limiting factor in determining the amount of MM. Thus, each of these diet patterns appears adequate to maintain MM."
Andrich, D. E., Filion, M., Woods, M., Dwyer, J. T., Gorbach, S. L., Goldin, B. R., & ... Aubertin-Leheudre, M. (2011). Relationship between essential amino acids and muscle mass, independent of habitual diets, in pre- and post-menopausal US women. International Journal Of Food Sciences & Nutrition, 62(7), 719-724.
"The health benefits of vegetarian diets are not unique. Prudent plant-based dietary patterns which also allow small intakes of red meat, fish and dairy products have demonstrated significant improvements in health status as well. At this time an optimal dietary intake for health status is unknown. Plant-based diets contain a host of food and nutrients known to have independent health benefits. While vegetarian diets have not shown any adverse effects on health, restrictive and monotonous vegetarian diets may result in nutrient deficiencies with deleterious effects on health. For this reason, appropriate advice is important to ensure a vegetarian diet is nutritionally adequate especially for vulnerable groups."
McEvoy, Claire; Temple, Norman; Woodside, Jayne V. Public Health Nutrition. 15.12(Dec 2012): 2287-94.
"(Y)ou might think Americans were at risk for not eating enough. In fact, most of us eat more protein than we need. Protein is in many foods that we eat on a regular basis."
"Because some vegetarians avoid eating all (or most) animal foods, they must rely on plant-based sources of protein to meet their protein needs. With some planning, a vegetarian diet can easily meet the recommended protein needs of adults and children."
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html0 -
Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).
Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.
Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."
And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.0 -
Vegans can get a adequate amount of protein in their diet, vegan, vegetarian omnivore etc as long as you are vigilant about your macros it is not impossible.
Some research on protein...
The current RDA for protein intake is .8g/kg of bodyweight. The real kicker here is that they claim that there is no benefit to eating more than that. I simply want to arm people with research that disputes this.
So, here we go:
1.4-2g of protein per kg of bodyweight is beneficial for individuals engaged in intense exercise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048505
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19278045
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500966
2-3g/kg is beneficial for athletes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434
Older subjects lost lean mass getting the RDA protein recommendations (.8g/kg):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382798
Double the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/495538
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16046715
Triple the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027
Subjects with a 1.5g/kg protein intake lost fat and gained lean mass:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463
Of people that don't exercise, high protein intake causes less lean-mass loss:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299116
Honestly doubt certain people on this thread will read them because they seem content with anecdotal evidence.0 -
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I agree your examples suck.
But . . . vegetarian bodybuilders and athletes exist. You can in fact add muscle mass eating only vegetables. You can get stronger and you can get bigger and you can get ripped. It is harder though. The amount of planning that goes into getting the right nutrients eating just vegetables is staggering compared to grilling up meat.
Eat vegetarian if you like. There's nothing wrong with it. You will not be as big and as strong as if you ate meat, but honestly, do you really care. You can get as big as you want and as strong as you want, unless you want to be Mr. Olympia or the worlds strongest man. If you don't want to be either of those things, pay attention to what you eat, try and get as much protein as you can and you'll be just fine.0 -
QFT^TO SUM UP:
Two examples of professional athletes who switched to vegan diets have been shown as an example that you can be a vegan, still have muscle, and compete at a professional level.
In both cases it's shown that they started to decline as athletes once they started eating vegan. One even supplemented his "healthy diet" with performance enhancing drugs to remain competitive.
If you want to make a point, find better examples than these two. Because you've only succeeded in sending the complete opposite of your intended message.
Poorly thought out threads like this are painful for vegans to read.
Anecdotal evidence at best!
Here is a picture of a vegan body builder...
Joel Kirkilis is a vegan Australian bodybuilder.
Joel took home first prize in the ANB Victorian Championships and second prize in the NABBA/WFF Bodybuilding International etc0 -
I agree your examples suck.
But . . . vegetarian bodybuilders and athletes exist. You can in fact add muscle mass eating only vegetables. You can get stronger and you can get bigger and you can get ripped. It is harder though. The amount of planning that goes into getting the right nutrients eating just vegetables is staggering compared to grilling up meat.
Eat vegetarian if you like. There's nothing wrong with it. You will not be as big and as strong as if you ate meat, but honestly, do you really care. You can get as big as you want and as strong as you want, unless you want to be Mr. Olympia or the worlds strongest man. If you don't want to be either of those things, pay attention to what you eat, try and get as much protein as you can and you'll be just fine.
Vegan =/= vegetarian. It's actually pretty easy to get all the EAAs on a vegetarian diet. Milk is pretty much one of the best sources of protein.0 -
QFT^TO SUM UP:
Two examples of professional athletes who switched to vegan diets have been shown as an example that you can be a vegan, still have muscle, and compete at a professional level.
In both cases it's shown that they started to decline as athletes once they started eating vegan. One even supplemented his "healthy diet" with performance enhancing drugs to remain competitive.
If you want to make a point, find better examples than these two. Because you've only succeeded in sending the complete opposite of your intended message.
Poorly thought out threads like this are painful for vegans to read.
Anecdotal evidence at best!
Here is a picture of a vegan body builder...
Joel Kirkilis is a vegan Australian bodybuilder.
Joel took home first prize in the ANB Victorian Championships and second prize in the NABBA/WFF Bodybuilding International etc
It is also misleading to use vegans as an argument that protein is not important (or is that vice versa?). Vegans who are looking to build/maintain muscle and who are performance athletes do pay attention to their protein intake.0 -
Not sure if you were directing that at me but this guy would most definitely pay attention to his protein intake...I met him and had a lengthy discussion about protein sources and even bought a protein supplement from him.
QFT^TO SUM UP:
Two examples of professional athletes who switched to vegan diets have been shown as an example that you can be a vegan, still have muscle, and compete at a professional level.
In both cases it's shown that they started to decline as athletes once they started eating vegan. One even supplemented his "healthy diet" with performance enhancing drugs to remain competitive.
If you want to make a point, find better examples than these two. Because you've only succeeded in sending the complete opposite of your intended message.
Poorly thought out threads like this are painful for vegans to read.
Anecdotal evidence at best!
Here is a picture of a vegan body builder...
Joel Kirkilis is a vegan Australian bodybuilder.
Joel took home first prize in the ANB Victorian Championships and second prize in the NABBA/WFF Bodybuilding International etc
It is also misleading to use vegans as an argument that protein is not important (or is that vice versa?). Vegans who are looking to build/maintain muscle and who are performance athletes do pay attention to their protein intake.
On the same page as you, maybe I miss quoted?0 -
The best vegan bodybuilding has to offer:
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/profile_kirkilis_7.jpg
The best animal protein has to offer:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2013/2013-olympia-weekend-phil-heath-is-mr-olympia-champion_a.jpg
Which diet builds more mass? HMMMMMM...
That being said I apologize for hijacking, since the original post was actually asking about maintaining mass on a "vegan-ish" diet and not about growing it. But I still think its relevant to see the top bodybuilding performers in each group so as to decide which way one should lean.0 -
Not sure if you were directing that at me but this guy would most definitely pay attention to his protein intake...I met him and had a lengthy discussion about protein sources and even bought a protein supplement from him.
QFT^TO SUM UP:
Two examples of professional athletes who switched to vegan diets have been shown as an example that you can be a vegan, still have muscle, and compete at a professional level.
In both cases it's shown that they started to decline as athletes once they started eating vegan. One even supplemented his "healthy diet" with performance enhancing drugs to remain competitive.
If you want to make a point, find better examples than these two. Because you've only succeeded in sending the complete opposite of your intended message.
Poorly thought out threads like this are painful for vegans to read.
Anecdotal evidence at best!
Here is a picture of a vegan body builder...
Joel Kirkilis is a vegan Australian bodybuilder.
Joel took home first prize in the ANB Victorian Championships and second prize in the NABBA/WFF Bodybuilding International etc
It is also misleading to use vegans as an argument that protein is not important (or is that vice versa?). Vegans who are looking to build/maintain muscle and who are performance athletes do pay attention to their protein intake.
On the same page as you, maybe I missed quoted?
Yep - I was making that point that protein intake is paid attention to by vegan athletes. There were some comments in this thread that minimized the importance (and were used in the context of vegans).0 -
The best vegan bodybuilding has to offer:
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/profile_kirkilis_7.jpg
The best animal protein has to offer:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2013/2013-olympia-weekend-phil-heath-is-mr-olympia-champion_a.jpg
Which diet builds more mass? HMMMMMM...
That being said I apologize for hijacking, since the original post was actually asking about maintaining mass on a "vegan-ish" diet and not about growing it. But I still think its relevant to see the top bodybuilding performers in each group so as to decide which way one should lean.
Gear has nothing to do with it?0 -
Never said kirkilis was the best and if for example you are getting protein from a meat source or a plant source and it is the same amount of protein does the body really care? HMMMM? It is still the same amount of protein.The best vegan bodybuilding has to offer:
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/profile_kirkilis_7.jpg
The best animal protein has to offer:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2013/2013-olympia-weekend-phil-heath-is-mr-olympia-champion_a.jpg
Which diet builds more mass? HMMMMMM...
That being said I apologize for hijacking, since the original post was actually asking about maintaining mass on a "vegan-ish" diet and not about growing it. But I still think its relevant to see the top bodybuilding performers in each group so as to decide which way one should lean.
I am not having a vegan vs omnivore bodybuilder debate as there are too many factors to consider weight range, are they natural bodybuilders or are they juicing etc.
Protein is protein no matter what the source as long as it contains an adequate proportion of all nine of the essential amino acids.0 -
My view on all this is that no one will really do a true study on themselves to know whether they feel better either way (assuming "smart" eating using either diet. Both can provide adequate nutrition.
Both don't have to be black and white or 2 sides of a coin. You can eat meat, fish and dairy and eggs and still eat a bunch of whole plant foods in the same vein that one can get adequate nutrition and protein from a vegan diet.
I think the assumptions that one doesn't eat enough plant/high nutrient foods and has no knowledge or care about nutrition or ethics on an omnivore diet or that one is a dumbass with no idea what they're doing on a vegan is insulting to either side.0 -
Robert Cheeke as an example of vegan bodybuilding?
I really wouldn't be touting him as a champion for your cause- he seriously looks like a woman from the back- he is small- and has pretty poor leg definition. He has decent definition- but he doesn't look like a body builder.
Body builder =/= definition it is SIZE and definition- of which is is lacking.
me- not impressed.Protein is protein no matter what the source as long as it contains an adequate proportion of all nine of the essential amino acids
did we already cover this? animal protein has more bio-availability? so when cutting/bulking is an issue trying to not over eat AND get enough protein- me thinks that is going to cause issues.
I respect people for making the jump to vegan for moral reasons- Joel Kirklis has a good quote on it (quick google images of his name shows it and why he became vegan) and I applaud people for living up to a their moral standards for THEMSELVES.
not because "it's better".
that decision shouldnt' have to be about "its' better or not" it's about what helps me sleep at night- it's about morals or ethics... it's pretty straight forward- best way to get protein is when it comes from dead things. It's when you have ethical/moral hang ups that it's an issue.0 -
Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).
Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.
Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."
And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.0 -
There's another piece of mis-info.animal protein has more bio-availability?0 -
Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).
Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.
Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."
And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.
Do you have the full text. I could not find it.0
http://youtu.be/O7ijukNzlUg
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