So you'll lose muscle on a vegan diet?

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animal protein has more bio-availability?

There's another piece of mis-info.

Do you even science

And can we remind people that top 5 are vegetarian

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Great job starting to get into the vegan diet I eat mostly vegan/plant-based as well minus the occasional fish. It is definitely a bunch of propaganda that the vegan diet or plant-based protein is inferior to animal protein.

It's not propaganda, it's scientific fact. The amino acid profile in animal based proteins is superior to that in plant based proteins. Sure you can compensate by eating a ridiculous amount of protein from plants, but the Bio-availability of animal based protein is much higher than that of plant based protein and there's a higher amount of Branched-Chained Amino Acids present in animal proteins, specifically Leucine which regulates protein synthesis in skeletal muscle.

Haha^^

You know that a 'scientific fact' is only a fact until it's disproven? A source, or at the very least a wikipedia link would be appreciated alongside any 'scientific facts'. I'm not discrediting anything that anyone has said, it just keeps the debate more authentic rather than built on BS :-)

Read up...

http://www.nutritionexpress.com/article+index/authors/jeff+s+volek+phd+rd/showarticle.aspx?articleid=807

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/2/533S.full

It's funny, but did you know the highest concentration of leucine occurs in soy?

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Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

I am not sure if it is available online. I found these in a search at Penn State where I work. I think the license is only for here. A library might have the full text though. These are clips from the conclusion sections.

I didn't have to dig deep. Just had to punch in the right search string. Tip of the iceberg.

Admittedly the CDC piece might be weak since it is clearly in support of the government approved food pyramid which is under reasonable scrutiny as the opinion seems to be.

My issue with the first one, from what I can tell from the abstract, was that they are not in a hypocaloric diet and it was for only 5 days. So I looked online to see if I could find the full text to see, as well as to check out the other variables.

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Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

I am not sure if it is available online. I found these in a search at Penn State where I work. I think the license is only for here. A library might have the full text though. These are clips from the conclusion sections.

I didn't have to dig deep. Just had to punch in the right search string. Tip of the iceberg.

Admittedly the CDC piece might be weak since it is clearly in support of the government approved food pyramid which is under reasonable scrutiny as the opinion seems to be.

My issue with the first one, from what I can tell from the abstract, was that they are not in a hypocaloric diet and it was for only 5 days. So I looked online to see if I could find the full text to see, as well as to check out the other variables.

OK. I think this is a good discussion, but as long we aren't jumping on emotionally-driven opinions we get closer to what works best for us!

I know what works for my health and my goals so I can't speak for anyone else.

The original post question is if you lose muscle mass on an 80/20 vegan diet. I have no clue what that really means other than vegetarian. I am more of a pescetarian if we are being literal, because the health benefits of wild salmon, wild cod, sardines, mackerel, etc. are too well documented. Excellent sources of protein as well.

I eat fish once in a while but not all the time. I am also trimming way down for cycling so the diet is about endurance and getting lean for those nasty climbs.

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Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

I am not sure if it is available online. I found these in a search at Penn State where I work. I think the license is only for here. A library might have the full text though. These are clips from the conclusion sections.

I didn't have to dig deep. Just had to punch in the right search string. Tip of the iceberg.

Admittedly the CDC piece might be weak since it is clearly in support of the government approved food pyramid which is under reasonable scrutiny as the opinion seems to be.

My issue with the first one, from what I can tell from the abstract, was that they are not in a hypocaloric diet and it was for only 5 days. So I looked online to see if I could find the full text to see, as well as to check out the other variables.

OK. I think this is a good discussion, but as long we aren't jumping on emotionally-driven opinions we get closer to what works best for us!

I know what works for my health and my goals so I can't speak for anyone else.

The original post question is if you lose muscle mass on an 80/20 vegan diet. I have no clue what that really means other than vegetarian. I am more of a pescetarian if we are being literal, because the health benefits of wild salmon, wild cod, sardines, mackerel, etc. are too well documented. Excellent sources of protein as well.

I eat fish once in a while but not all the time. I am also trimming way down for cycling so the diet is about endurance and getting lean for those nasty climbs.

I generally do not post emotionally-driven opinions when discussing science based nutrition.

The answer, as with most things, is...it depends.

It depends on the amount and the quality of the protein, whether the person is resistance training or endurance training or sedentary, whether they are in a hypo or a hypercaloric diet or on maintenance. What the size of the deficit is. Their leanness. Genetics....and so on and so on.

Being a vegan does not make it impossible to gain/maintain muscle. It just makes planning more important and you *may* not get optimal results.

However, at the end of the day, people need to ask whether getting 'optimal results' is worth going against any moral/ethical concern.

Also, again. Vegan =/= vegetarian.

Just anecdotal, but my ex-wife thru-hiked the Appalachian trail on a Vegan diet.

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Just anecdotal, but my ex-wife thru-hiked the Appalachian trail on a Vegan diet.

Low muscle levels and a high level of carbs would be ideal for such a trip, I'd expect.

Environment and a given lifestyle would also dictate muscle mass and overall fitness. The Massai tribe in Africa is a pretty fascinating look at how adaptable people can be. The Massai basically consume mostly animals with very little vegetation and show stellar health and virtually no heart disease and are very lean and fit and I'll bet with above average cardio capacity. But they move quite a bit.