Cyclist v Motorist

It seems to me that, since over 90% of all accidents and traffic fatalities are caused by automobile drivers, it is CARS that shouldn't be on the road.

Interesting point.

Here are the statistics for the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/244137/ras50001.xls

As a cyclist myself, I don't think bikes should be on the road, they rarely obey the rules of the road. They use crosswalks when the light is red and don't even stop for stop signs most of the time. They break all these rules and then complain when a car cuts them off because they are "vehicles". If you can't drive the speed limit or there is no dedicated bike lane, they shouldn't be on the road.

It seems to me that, since over 90% of all accidents and traffic fatalities are caused by automobile drivers, it is CARS that shouldn't be on the road.

True but I'm willing to bet most of the accidents and traffic fatalities involving bikes are caused by pretentious cyclist thinking they own the road...

Honestly, I think this thread has pretty much motivated me to start recording my rides so when I do one day get run over by some careless oaf I can either sue their pants off or at least have plenty of evidence for their vehicular manslaughter case.

As a cyclist myself, I don't think bikes should be on the road, they rarely obey the rules of the road. They use crosswalks when the light is red and don't even stop for stop signs most of the time. They break all these rules and then complain when a car cuts them off because they are "vehicles". If you can't drive the speed limit or there is no dedicated bike lane, they shouldn't be on the road.

It seems to me that, since over 90% of all accidents and traffic fatalities are caused by automobile drivers, it is CARS that shouldn't be on the road.

I would really like to see the US shift gears into more bike lanes and more public transportation. I loved living in cities where I didn't have to drive, and would happily commute the 12 miles each way everyday via bike if I didn't think I'd get killed. Given the incredibly high fatality rate, let alone the comments in this thread, I think it's more than clear that there are too many aggressive and/or lousy drivers out there.

For me its got nothing to do with aggeession or abilty! Its about cyclists riding on already dangerous roads when there are places designed for them to ride. Its also horrible to see 30 or of them on that same road riding 3 abreast. If you get put in the ditch so be it.... I'm not going head on with another car because cyclist want to ride on a road that barely holds two cars!!

Why do you think the car has the right of way over a cyclist? ... never mind 30 of them riding 3 abreast.

There are some bitter folks in this thread. LOL. Sad really.

There are some bitter folks in this thread. LOL. Sad really.

I know right?

When gas hits $10 a gallon eventually I bet a lot more folks are going to "see the wisdom" of sharing the road.

I've been cycling off and on for 40 years, and the arguments haven't changed in all that time. There is no question that there are thoughtless drivers, thoughtless cyclists, and thoughtless pedestrians. The only universal solution is the Golden Rule and, well, we're still working on that as a species.

There is one qualitative difference, however, between the motorist and cyclists side of the story. While motorists commit millions of thoughtless acts (I'm talking in general, not just towards cyclists), cause hundreds of thousands of accidents and kill tens of thousands of people each year, no one would ever suggest that they "don't belong on the roads". Yet, every selfish or irresponsible act is used by many drivers as "evidence" that cyclists should be excluded.

I don't believe in comparative justification-i.e. it's ok for me to be a jerk because other people are jerks. Cyclists have a legal right to the road and that also comes with responsibilities. Too often, cyclists feel justified in acting like jerks (esp in mass rides) because of the constant abuse and threats they receive from motorists. I understand the impulse, but it still doesn't make it right. In my experience, too many cyclists don't understand the principles of safe bicycle riding on the roads, nor do they fully understand traffic laws and how they apply to them. However, the same is true for many/most drivers, so, again, the faults of cyclists don't justify assault or taking them off the road, any more than the tens of infractions and poor driving habits I see every day on the way to work justify excluding all cars (except for maybe SUVs, but that's another topic ;-) And some doofus weaving in and out of traffic listening to a iPod is no different from someone weaving all over the highway texting on a phone. The problem is with the behavior, not the mode of transportation.

If you are that impatient of a driver that a delay of a couple of seconds or minutes while working around a cyclist bothers you that much, then you need psychological help, not more laws to exclude cyclists.

Just like not everyone in a car is the same type of driver, not everyone on a bike is the same type of cyclist. A guy who is out training on some back roads is a lot different than some kamikaze bike messenger in the middle of the Chicago Loop.

My general rule of thumb in mixed settings, is that the person at the lower risk should defer whenever possible to the person at higher risk. Someone in a car has immense power compared to a cyclist and should act accordingly. These fantasies that people express about "running them off the road" are just another example of the peculiar pathology that overtakes some individuals once they get behind a wheel. On mixed-use recreational paths, cyclists have an obligation to defer to pedestrians, kids, dogs, etc. Yes, I know pedestrians can be selfish and irresponsible as well, but they are going 2-3 mph--the person on wheels going 10-20 mph has an obligation to work around them. Don't like it? Go out at 6 am when no one else is there. Don't go to a lakefront path at noon on a sunny Sunday afternoon and get pissed because you can't do your triathlon training.

A little common sense and a lot of tolerance go a long way--I know that's idealistic to say, but it's still the only real solution.

I even have to deal with a lot of bike races here too and I hate them. Even though they affect the local communities we are never told when they are going on. How hard is it to post to the community Facebook pages or post something at the Post Office a week before the event happens. I would change my schedule to avoid driving when a race is happening because I am so afraid that I could hit someone on a bike.

To be fair thats not the fault of the cyclist taking part in the race it's the fault of the organisers.

I completely agree with both points I've quoted here. It's off topic, but this reminded me of a bike race that went on in our small community a few weeks ago. My boys play baseball and they were having a fundraiser BBQ on the same day as the race (because the organizers of the race didn't alert the community at large). One of the cyclists was out of control angry because he paid $50+ for the race and wasn't given food from the baseball fundraiser free of charge. All of the boys were in their full on baseball uniforms, so there was zero doubt that their function had nothing to do with the race. Funny...but not.

A few times I tapped some folks with my car just to let them know that I mean business.

So intentionally striking a cyclist with your vehicle is as idiotic as causing criminal damage to cages. In the event that there is an injury you've essentially acknowledged that it wasn't an accident, you were intentionally running the cyclist down.

When I'm commuting I generally feel safer in central London, than on the rural roads elsewhere. While there are accidents they're frequently as a result of those involved, whether cage dweller or cyclist, focussing on making progress, rather than safety; riding down death valley or not actually using a lifesaver glance. Elsewhere it's because cage dwellers can't actually judge a safe distance, maybe they're using special genital inches rather than real ones. A safe distance is 3 feet, which means when a cycle is taking an appropriate road position, in the middle of the lane, an overtake involves changing lane in the same way as passing a car.

That said, it happens with motorcycles as well, so much of the noise about cyclists per se, but about people who choose to be different on the road. I've had cagers try to block me when I'm filtering on both pedal cycle or motorcycle.

Tapping a cyclist is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible thing to do. Your vehicle has a lot of mass and a slight tap is enough to cause serious injury, not to mention it is a criminal act and maybe considered attempted vehicular manslaughter in some jurisdictions.

I have never tapped a cyclist, but yes if someone bashes my window in with a baton like the poster said, I would use my vehicle as a weapon. I don't know where you get respect by bashing people's windows in, but I do know that bashing someone's windows in is enough to get arrested, seriously injured or killed. Though this was on motorcycles, there was an incident in NY where a large group of bikers were riding on the highway. One of the rider brake checked in front of a Range Rover and the Range tapped him. The bikers cut the guys tires and started banging on his window. The Range took off and ran one of the bikers over. He is now paralyzed for life. The driver did get beat up pretty bad by the bikers, but the point is a 3 ton vehicle can kill or seriously injure you. Bashing a car windows in doesn't earn you respect, it makes the driver sees you as a threat and unlike the cyclist, they have 3 tons of metal to use to defend themselves.


BTW, I learned how to drive in Manhattan where you must be aggressive to survive. I know many native New Yorkers who are afraid to drive there for that reason. Cars blow their horns the very second the light changes and taxis are relentless. A couple times I found myself stuck in the intersection for more than 2 lights because large crowds of pedestrians refused to stop crossing the street. They ignored my horn and continued to walk, blocking me and backing up traffic, so I proceeded and lightly tapped a guy and they finally moved. I gave them more courtesy than most cab drivers who don't even slow down and force them to run out the way. If they don't run in time they would get hit and seriously hurt and yes that happens more often than not. Tapping pedestrians is completely unnecessary in most parts of the world, but you adapt to your driving environment.

A few times I tapped some folks with my car just to let them know that I mean business.

So intentionally striking a cyclist with your vehicle is as idiotic as causing criminal damage to cages. In the event that there is an injury you've essentially acknowledged that it wasn't an accident, you were intentionally running the cyclist down.

When I'm commuting I generally feel safer in central London, than on the rural roads elsewhere. While there are accidents they're frequently as a result of those involved, whether cage dweller or cyclist, focussing on making progress, rather than safety; riding down death valley or not actually using a lifesaver glance. Elsewhere it's because cage dwellers can't actually judge a safe distance, maybe they're using special genital inches rather than real ones. A safe distance is 3 feet, which means when a cycle is taking an appropriate road position, in the middle of the lane, an overtake involves changing lane in the same way as passing a car.

That said, it happens with motorcycles as well, so much of the noise about cyclists per se, but about people who choose to be different on the road. I've had cagers try to block me when I'm filtering on both pedal cycle or motorcycle.

Tapping a cyclist is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible thing to do. Your vehicle has a lot of mass and a slight tap is enough to cause serious injury, not to mention it is a criminal act and maybe considered attempted vehicular manslaughter in some jurisdictions.

I have never tapped a cyclist, but yes if someone bashes my window in with a baton like the poster said, I would use my vehicle as a weapon. I don't know where you get respect by bashing people's windows in, but I do know that bashing someone's windows in is enough to get arrested, seriously injured or killed. Though this was on motorcycles, there was an incident in NY where a large group of bikers were riding on the highway. One of the rider brake checked in front of a Range Rover and the Range tapped him. The bikers cut the guys tires and started banging on his window. The Range took off and ran one of the bikers over. He is now paralyzed for life. The driver did get beat up pretty bad by the bikers, but the point is a 3 ton vehicle can kill or seriously injure you. Bashing a car windows in doesn't earn you respect, it makes the driver sees you as a threat and unlike the cyclist, they have 3 tons of metal to use to defend themselves.


BTW, I learned how to drive in Manhattan where you must be aggressive to survive. I know many native New Yorkers who are afraid to drive there for that reason. Cars blow their horns the very second the light changes and taxis are relentless. A couple times I found myself stuck in the intersection for more than 2 lights because large crowds of pedestrians refused to stop crossing the street. They ignored my horn and continued to walk, blocking me and backing up traffic, so I proceeded and lightly tapped a guy and they finally moved. I gave them more courtesy than most cab drivers who don't even slow down and force them to run out the way. If they don't run in time they would get hit and seriously hurt and yes that happens more often than not. Tapping pedestrians is completely unnecessary in most parts of the world, but you adapt to your driving environment.

The story you spoke of.... the guys in the range rover would never have touched the biker had he not Brake Checked him. The biker was totally at fault. Its a tragic outcome but the biker started the mess.

Yes I agree that it was the bikers fault for brake checking the Range Rover. But his friends banging on the windows and slashing the tires only escalated matters. If they hadn't responded that way, the driver wouldn't have felt the need to run over the bikers with his SUV, paralyzing him.

Bottom line - to quote Joanna Lumley "Aren't people extraordinary!"

Cyclists/ Drivers and pedestrians - should all be more considerate of each other. I've been yelled at by drivers to "get off the road" while cycling (and yes I obey all the rules of the road). I've been run into from behind twice while stopped at a red light in my Jeep. And daily I see people step off the curb without looking because they are texting or doing something similar.

Doesn't matter what rules and regulations are put in place - people are, to borrow from John Landis, "See you next Wednesday"s.

I have no problem giving cyclists their space and generally show a lot of patience when I come up to cyclists on the road. However, I tend to lose that patience when I come across a group of riders who are holding up traffic and making it impossible for cars to pass for miles. If you have a car stuck behind you for more than a couple minutes the polite thing to do, in my opinion, would be to pull off the road and let them by. I think sharing the road is the responsibility of both sides.

Hi Jen

Totally agree with not holding up traffic, there was a bus behind me today on one of the country lanes I was on, pulled in at the first opportunity.

Not sure if you were aware of this but the reason that some cyclist ride side by side is it is safer for them and also quicker (supposedly) for motorist to get by. Your only overtaking 1 bikes length not 2, however you do need more room on you right in the UK (or left more or less everywhere else).

Sorry if that sound pompous or condescending, I don't mean it to just wanted you to know why it's done.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

I didn't know that, thanks! The bicyclists really annoy me where I live because they DO do this, and I always seem to run into them when I am about to turn a blind corner so it really gets frustrating, not their fault, just seems to be what always happens, AND we have a beautiful bike trail that no one seems to use their actual bikes on, so it's frustrating....

but then I'll go and actually talk to someone that rides bikes and then i'll feel like a jerk and realize that you guys are people too and I should stop being such a butthead. Especially since I'm sure I drive people nuts when I run on the road as well.

so thanks for reminding me.

A few times I tapped some folks with my car just to let them know that I mean business.

I have never tapped a cyclist, but yes if someone bashes my window in with a baton like the poster said, I would use my vehicle as a weapon. I don't know where you get respect by bashing people's windows in, but I do know that bashing someone's windows in is enough to get arrested, seriously injured or killed. Though this was on motorcycles, there was an incident in NY where a large group of bikers were riding on the highway. One of the rider brake checked in front of a Range Rover and the Range tapped him. The bikers cut the guys tires and started banging on his window. The Range took off and ran one of the bikers over. He is now paralyzed for life. The driver did get beat up pretty bad by the bikers, but the point is a 3 ton vehicle can kill or seriously injure you. Bashing a car windows in doesn't earn you respect, it makes the driver sees you as a threat and unlike the cyclist, they have 3 tons of metal to use to defend themselves.


BTW, I learned how to drive in Manhattan where you must be aggressive to survive. I know many native New Yorkers who are afraid to drive there for that reason. Cars blow their horns the very second the light changes and taxis are relentless. A couple times I found myself stuck in the intersection for more than 2 lights because large crowds of pedestrians refused to stop crossing the street. They ignored my horn and continued to walk, blocking me and backing up traffic, so I proceeded and lightly tapped a guy and they finally moved. I gave them more courtesy than most cab drivers who don't even slow down and force them to run out the way. If they don't run in time they would get hit and seriously hurt and yes that happens more often than not. Tapping pedestrians is completely unnecessary in most parts of the world, but you adapt to your driving environment.

I didn't bash a window until this ****nose tried pushing me off the road. You are bat**** crazy, lady. First you say you've tapped people, then you say you never have. Get therapy. And until then, stay off the roads.

I said I have never tapped cyclists, but I have tapped a few pedestrians under the circumstances I stated previously. I may be a little crazy, especially when I am behind the wheel, I prefer to be called aggressive, but I would never be crazy enough to think to go against a car while I am a pedestrian, cyclist or biker. I think you have a lot of crazy in you too. Even if the driver tried to push you off the road, you said you bashed his window in for respect. Well more than a few drivers would have responded with pushing you off the road permanently. I have seen road rage incidents turn violent over a lot less than bashed windows. I think you should consider therapy since you think a bashing in people's windows in an appropriate response to drivers having poor cyclist etiquette or that a baton can go toe to toe with 3 tons of metal. Perhaps you should consider riding your bike on the trails instead of bashing in the windows of vehicles that don't give you adequate space.