What are the Proven Benefits of a "Lifestyle Change"?

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  • bettyjoburdett
    bettyjoburdett Posts: 120 Member
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    I can give you a 45 year study of 3 women. It is not scientific but it is factual. These 3 women would be in the obese range. 2 of the women were in the morbidly obese range. 2 of the women had bariatric surgery, 1 did not. All 3 women have been on Adkins, WW,
    grapefruit diet, non fat diet, no carb diet, etc. 1 woman went to a diet clinic and ate 300 calories a day.

    All 3 women were not physically active except for chasing kids when they were toddlers. 1 woman was somewhat active off and on.

    To date, all three women have gained and lost on average 100+ pounds despite dieting on and off, surgery and quack diets.
    To date all three women are the ages of 60,60 and 61. They all started gaining weight at a pre-teen age.

    My conclusion looking back on 45 years is that you have to see the whole picture of health.It is not just losing lbs. or exercising for short spurts, because it always end in short term success.

    When you decide to see yourself healthy, truly healthy not just slimmer, you will be successful. It truly is a LIFESTYLE change. We all have many changes in life and we adjust to them, modify our reactions, change our way of thinking and eventually see it as LIFE long term.

    I will let you know how my change in lifestyle goes as I am learning to become healthy finally after 45 years.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
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    "Results
    The FAST, MODERATE, and SLOW groups differed significantly in mean weight changes at 6 months (−13.5, −8.9, and −5.1 kg, respectively, ps < 0.001), and the FAST and SLOW groups differed significantly at 18 months (−10.9, −7.1, and −3.7 kg, respectively, ps < 0.001). No significant group differences were found in weight regain between 6 and 18 months (2.6, 1.8, and 1.3 kg, respectively, ps < 0.9). The FAST and MODERATE groups were 5.1 and 2.7 times more likely to achieve 10% weight losses at 18 months than the SLOW group."

    I agree that study isn't the best example of what I meant but it does conclude what it says it concludes, just not for the 'between 6 and 18 month' period.

    The meta-analysis I mentioned was a better example. It looked at 30+ weight loss studies done over decades and concluded that the best maintainers were the VLCD dieters. I don't know if it matters if I find the link or not. My only point was sometimes you read something 100 times (98 times here, usually) and figure it must be true but the evidence doesn't always support it.

    I think if you go the forums of any 'way of losing weight'-- WW, Atkins, 5:2, South Beach, WLS, whatever-- you'll see a room full of people also convinced they're not on a diet, for them it's a lifestyle change. 95% of us are still part of the 95% regardless of what we call it.

    I don't care that I'm part of the 95% because each time I regain I regain less so I figure eventually I'll nail it and settle in the sweet spot.

    People who quit smoking probably also have a 95% failure rate if you consider all their attempts but still most people do eventually nail it and quit for good. Citing the failure rate of the first attempt doesn't mean much if you get unlimited attempts and you learn more and get more likely to succeed each time.
  • Iwishyouwell
    Iwishyouwell Posts: 1,888 Member
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    EvgeniZyntx, kethry70, and WalkingAlong, thank you all for your thoughts on the study. I've been hoping to see that get some good, thorough discussion for awhile.
    The meta-analysis I mentioned was a better example. It looked at 30+ weight loss studies done over decades and concluded that the best maintainers were the VLCD dieters. I don't know if it matters if I find the link or not. My only point was sometimes you read something 100 times (98 times here, usually) and figure it must be true but the evidence doesn't always support it.

    This was the impetus of this thread for me. To see if the data lines up with the near universal assumption around here that doing it a certain way automatically leads to a stronger chance at long term maintenance. You see particular assumptions being made on this board time and again, and at some point somebody had to ask "OK, but where is the proof?".

    If you ever find a link to that study I would be very interested in reading it. As someone who lost initially, back in my teens, on a VLCD, without really even knowing what I was doing, I ended up maintaining that weight for years.

    I know for some their methods they use to lose weight must match the method they use for maintenance. And that makes sense. But I do believe that some people can do well with having a specific program or strategy for weight loss, and another for maintenance. My grandmother and great aunt lost weight that way over 30 years ago, and they are/were the longest maintainers I've ever met. It's about the transition.

    Regardless of how you lost, or at what rate, can you make the transition into maintenance? You'd assume this would be an easy transition for those who lost slow and made a "lifestyle change" that seemed easy and permanent, and yet even those people commonly run into the same issues as people who "diet".


    I think if you go the forums of any 'way of losing weight'-- WW, Atkins, 5:2, South Beach, WLS, whatever-- you'll see a room full of people also convinced they're not on a diet, for them it's a lifestyle change. 95% of us are still part of the 95% regardless of what we call it.

    Yes. Back in my strictly low carb days the first time I ever heard of the idea of a "lifestyle change" was amongst low carbers, and it was called their new "way of life". Many of those people had insulin related issues and considered this new way of life to be imperative to their health. I met almost nobody who intended to low carb for weight loss and then stop once they hit goal. They were just as well intentioned as the "lifestyle change" folks around here. And like calorie counting, IIFYM, everything in moderation, those types of philosophies, there were many who failed, and a few who did succeed into long term maintenance.

    It seems, based off what we know, nearly all the programs and approaches have very similar success:failure ratios when it comes to maintaining considerable losses.

    But people treat their dieting/program/lifestyle change as more religion than science. People come to believe their way of eating is THE choice way. I've seen this way of thinking amongst IFers, low carbers, IIFYMers, Vegans, the low fat crew, Paleo folks, etc.

    The only thing in common those various approaches seem to have is high failure rate overall, with very few maintaining what they do lose.
  • jmv7117
    jmv7117 Posts: 891 Member
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    But people treat their dieting/program/lifestyle change as more religion than science. People come to believe their way of eating is THE choice way. I've seen this way of thinking amongst IFers, low carbers, IIFYMers, Vegans, the low fat crew, Paleo folks, etc.

    The only thing in common those various approaches seem to have is high failure rate overall, with very few maintaining what they do lose.

    In general, certain alternative diets (eg. Paleo, clean eating, vegetarian, vegan) are part of a lifestyle ideal. For example, just as I avoid food additives and commercially processed foods for a clean eating diet it really is only part of my overall lifestyle that also includes the use of toxins in our home or on our bodies. We eat locally produced and grown foods as well as make ethical choices about the products we use and buy. We grow what we can and deal directly with the farmers and growers. So this is all about our lifestyle of which clean eating is only one aspect. These alternative diets are not specific to weigh loss alone. Another example, Crossfit and Paleo tend to be tightly entwined. Again, it is a total lifestyle choice not just diet.
  • hmadrone
    hmadrone Posts: 129 Member
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    OP, this is not a single study, but the WeightWatchers book _Weight Loss That Lasts_ by James M. Rippe, M.D. is pretty much a long, research-sourced argument for why lifestyle change works to take and keep weight off. It looks at a bunch of different factors in weight loss and how they affect long-term success.

    Sounds like it's just what you're looking for.
  • osothefinn
    osothefinn Posts: 163 Member
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    I agree with the OP. Nearly everyone thinks they're on a 'lifestyle change', regardless of their method or eating plan of choice, in my experience.

    "Fast weight losers obtained greater weight reduction and long-term maintenance, and were not more susceptible to weight regain than gradual weight losers."

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12529-010-9092-y

    It doesn't specifically say "lifestyle change DOES NOT work" but it does say that people on more aggressive diets maintained better and longer. I've seen a meta-analysis of 30+ studies that showed people on VLCD (800 calories or less) were the most successful 5 years out. I'm not suggesting that means there IS a magic bullet and it's VLCD, just that our assumptions are often wrong about who maintains and why.

    I've seen that study brought up two or three times, once by myself actually.

    Crickets.

    Honestly, this makes some sense to me. Historically humans were probably exposed to short term caloric restriction quite a bit. If the tribe didn't get a kill everyone went hungry for a few days until they got one, then everyone binged til it was gone I imagine. Long term caloric restriction (months long, etc) is probably more unnatural biologically than a short term VLCD. I wonder if there was ever a study about ending metabolic rate based on say a 30 day VLCD vs. a 6 month loss of the same calories, assuming maintenance consumption afterward? Time to poke around on PubMed.
  • Meerataila
    Meerataila Posts: 1,885 Member
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    Honestly, this makes some sense to me. Historically humans were probably exposed to short term caloric restriction quite a bit. If the tribe didn't get a kill everyone went hungry for a few days until they got one, then everyone binged til it was gone I imagine. Long term caloric restriction (months long, etc) is probably more unnatural biologically than a short term VLCD. I wonder if there was ever a study about ending metabolic rate based on say a 30 day VLCD vs. a 6 month loss of the same calories, assuming maintenance consumption afterward? Time to poke around on PubMed.

    Makes sense to me, too. Though I wonder how often people stopped eating well before they were full, tempering their appetites, not to lose weight, but to dry and store food for leaner times.
  • Iwishyouwell
    Iwishyouwell Posts: 1,888 Member
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    OP, this is not a single study, but the WeightWatchers book _Weight Loss That Lasts_ by James M. Rippe, M.D. is pretty much a long, research-sourced argument for why lifestyle change works to take and keep weight off. It looks at a bunch of different factors in weight loss and how they affect long-term success.

    Sounds like it's just what you're looking for.

    Thank you!

    Though how ironic that it's a Weight Watchers book, considering the revelation that their program's long term success rate is around I believe 2%.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
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    Honestly, this makes some sense to me. Historically humans were probably exposed to short term caloric restriction quite a bit. If the tribe didn't get a kill everyone went hungry for a few days until they got one, then everyone binged til it was gone I imagine. Long term caloric restriction (months long, etc) is probably more unnatural biologically than a short term VLCD. I wonder if there was ever a study about ending metabolic rate based on say a 30 day VLCD vs. a 6 month loss of the same calories, assuming maintenance consumption afterward? Time to poke around on PubMed.

    I disagree. Long term food shortages would have affected early human populations too. Also, when the hunt fails, there is still gathered plant foods available and small game. Modern hunter-gatherers may go several days without a big kill but they don't go hungry in between. People underestimate the contribution/importance of gathered foods to hunter-gatherer populations. Shortages of gathered foods are likely to have had a worse effect on populations than lack of large game as these provided the day to day staples and the main source of carbohydrates, and this kind of shortage likely would last, e.g. an entire winter, or maybe even an entire year if there was some freaky climatic conditions that affected the availability of plant foods in the area they lived.

    To be honest, I think the most similar dieting methods to a palaeolithic lifestyle would be the bodybuilder/strength athlete cut and bulk cycles. Hunting during the middle palaeolithic era required an extreme level of strength (hunting large mammals close range with only a thrusting spear, plus carrying the animal back to wherever home was) - at all times they would be using their muscles to survive. There would be phases of the year where food was less available (but not yearly famines, just less food available so they'd get enough to keep hunting and not lose too much lean mass and have the energy to keep hunting, but still at a deficit), where their bodies would need to maintain their muscle mass in order to catch enough food. Then phases when food was more plentiful (but not the kinds of excesses they have today, so they'd not have a huge surplus).... what happens to the human body under these conditions, well during the calorie deficit phases, the strenuous exercise protects the muscles from being metabolised (they're needed to succeed at hunting therefore are important for survival) and fat is used to make up the energy shortfall........ then when food is more plentiful, a lot of that surplus is going to be used to build up the muscles necessary for success at hunting, and what's left will replenish the fat stores to enable the person to survive the season(s) when food is less plentiful. In a severe food shortage, more muscle tissue can be metabolised (but this would not be a regular thing, and muscle memory gains plus returning to hunting would mean they rebuild their muscle to be able to succeed at hunting relatively quickly). If someone is sedentary (not hunting, e.g. due to permanent injury), more muscle tissue can be metabolised (no point maintaining muscle if it's not being used for hunting because it's not necessary for survival)...... it's well known that the human body responds in these ways to these conditions, that is well documented by exercise and nutrition scientists. It also fits in well with the idea that our ancestors had to keep hunting through times of the year when food is more plentiful and when it's less plentiful. It's also likely that finding people with ripped muscles very sexually attractive comes from the fact that this indicates that this person is still strong and able to hunt through the harsher times of the year, i.e. they have good genes to increase your offspring's chance of survival.

    While the process of cutting and bulking didn't come from the study of evolutionary science, it is interesting that this method puts the body through similar conditions that a middle palaeolithic lifestyle did and also that it results in a physique that a lot of people find sexually attractive and desirable.

    Does that mean it'll be easiest to maintain the weight if you lost it that way? That depends on how much you like the lifestyle, because to maintain you have to keep doing what you're doing. There is *no* way to lose weight that is going to stick permanently. Hence the importance of choosing a method you know you are capable of sticking to.

    Avoiding obesity isn't something that humans have evolved for, because hunter-gatherers don't become obese because they have to do a lot of exercise, often strenuous exercise, to find food in the first place. Even when food is plentiful they still have to exercise in order to get it. This was even more the case in the middle palaeolithic as they didn't have projectile weapons. The idea that the ability to maintain a healthy weight while food was plentiful was somehow selected for IMO is erroneous. This trait would not be selected for in an environment where it's nigh on impossible to get obese, because it would not affect an individuals chance of survival. The ability to have a healthy body fat percentage in a society with plentiful easily obtainable food has no relevance to our evolutionary past. Staying fit and lean in this environment requires effort. Weight loss will never be permanent if you just go right back to being a couch potato, no matter how you lost it. And that is mostly about mental attitude. The reason why people advise lifestyle changes that people can stick to, is because if you can't do it for the rest of your life you'll regain the weight. If you lose weight in ways that you're not going to stick to, your failure rate becomes 100%. Losing fat with a lifestyle you find enjoyable and maintainable, then you have a chance of success and your chances of success are going to depend on your mental attitude and choosing to stick with it permanently. Yep some will fail, but it's not inevitable.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
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    This was the impetus of this thread for me. To see if the data lines up with the near universal assumption around here that doing it a certain way automatically leads to a stronger chance at long term maintenance. You see particular assumptions being made on this board time and again, and at some point somebody had to ask "OK, but where is the proof?".

    If you ever find a link to that study I would be very interested in reading it. As someone who lost initially, back in my teens, on a VLCD, without really even knowing what I was doing, I ended up maintaining that weight for years.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/5/579.abstract

    It might've been that one I'm remembering.

    I joined here maybe 3 years ago and you could hardly read a thread without reading "eating below your BMR is dangerous because it's what your body needs in a coma". I finally deleted that account in frustration over trying to convince people that is a myth.

    I'm not at all advocating VLCD or eating below any particular number, I just hate seeing myths presented as facts, especially with scare tactics attached ("starvation mode!", "coma!", "gas tanks!", "metabolic damage!", "burning your LBM!, "regain it all!").
  • Iwishyouwell
    Iwishyouwell Posts: 1,888 Member
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    Neandermagnon, great post!


    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/5/579.abstract

    It might've been that one I'm remembering.

    I joined here maybe 3 years ago and you could hardly read a thread without reading "eating below your BMR is dangerous because it's what your body needs in a coma". I finally deleted that account in frustration over trying to convince people that is a myth.

    I'm not at all advocating VLCD or eating below any particular number, I just hate seeing myths presented as facts, especially with scare tactics attached ("starvation mode!", "coma!", "gas tanks!", "metabolic damage!", "burning your LBM!, "regain it all!").

    Thanks for the link.

    I am absolutely, 100% with you. The scare tactics and common myths really, really dig under my skin. I've experienced enough of the so called "no-nos" to realize that I am either a unique, special byproduct of a union between a snowflake and a unicorn, or lots of people are chalk full of BS.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
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    Neandermagnon, great post!


    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/5/579.abstract

    It might've been that one I'm remembering.

    I joined here maybe 3 years ago and you could hardly read a thread without reading "eating below your BMR is dangerous because it's what your body needs in a coma". I finally deleted that account in frustration over trying to convince people that is a myth.

    I'm not at all advocating VLCD or eating below any particular number, I just hate seeing myths presented as facts, especially with scare tactics attached ("starvation mode!", "coma!", "gas tanks!", "metabolic damage!", "burning your LBM!, "regain it all!").

    Thanks for the link.

    I am absolutely, 100% with you. The scare tactics and common myths really, really dig under my skin. I've experienced enough of the so called "no-nos" to realize that I am either a unique, special byproduct of a union between a snowflake and a unicorn, or lots of people are chalk full of BS.

    I think it is reasonable to differentiate between stupid myths and generally good advice.

    "Don't eat under your BMR or you will go into starvation mode and kill your metabolism 4eva" is obviously a myth.

    "Eating at low calories, for example below your BMR, for extended periods of time increases the risk of muscle loss, concomitant changes in metabolism beyond those experienced just from weight loss, possibly other issues that may occur with rapid weight loss such as increased prevalence of thyroid dysfunction, kidney stones, skin elasticity issues (maybe), etc. Nonetheless, rapid weight loss might make sense for some in some rarer cases." is generally good advice.

    It's ok that people have a tendency to shorten the message to what they see as essential.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
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    Can you give me one source that says any of that about eating below your BMR, though? I've asked here a hundred times and no one has. They give me sources that say eating VLCD can cause some of that, but VLCD is typically considered to be more like 800 and under. Most people's BMR is double that and higher. Even the 1200 floor MFP uses is 50% over it, and below everyone's BMR (virtually). I do think using BMR as some arbitrary floor value is a myth that you only see here and on some other weight loss forums so I don't consider it generally good advice. Though I know it's well-meaning and people do 100% believe it's true, what they're saying.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
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    Can you give me one source that says any of that about eating below your BMR, though? I've asked here a hundred times and no one has. They give me sources that say eating VLCD can cause some of that, but VLCD is typically considered to be more like 800 and under. Most people's BMR is double that and higher. Even the 1200 floor MFP uses is 50% over it, and below everyone's BMR (virtually). I do think using BMR as some arbitrary floor value is a myth that you only see here and on some other weight loss forums so I don't consider it generally good advice. Though I know it's well-meaning and people do 100% believe it's true, what they're saying.

    A 5'6" woman @130 lbs might have a BMR of 1200 (say about 30% bf)

    But let's go a little higher and work with a guy. Say approximately 1,560 calories per day.
    Would that work for you? Would you like some research that shows deleterious effects of long-term calorie restriction at that level?

    It is called the Minnesota Starvation Experiment.
  • parkscs
    parkscs Posts: 1,639 Member
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    Can you give me one source that says any of that about eating below your BMR, though? I've asked here a hundred times and no one has. They give me sources that say eating VLCD can cause some of that, but VLCD is typically considered to be more like 800 and under. Most people's BMR is double that and higher. Even the 1200 floor MFP uses is 50% over it, and below everyone's BMR (virtually). I do think using BMR as some arbitrary floor value is a myth that you only see here and on some other weight loss forums so I don't consider it generally good advice. Though I know it's well-meaning and people do 100% believe it's true, what they're saying.

    A 5'6" woman @130 lbs might have a BMR of 1200 (say about 30% bf)

    But let's go a little higher and work with a guy. Say approximately 1,560 calories per day.
    Would that work for you? Would you like some research that shows deleterious effects of long-term calorie restriction at that level?

    It is called the Minnesota Starvation Experiment.

    Okay now that's funny. You seriously think the Minnesota Starvation Experiment stands for the proposition that no one should eat under their BMR? There's simply no comparison between an underweight person eating a large caloric deficit and an overweight person eating a large caloric deficit, and the vast, vast majority of people getting told "Oh noes, don't eat under BMR!" are overweight and trying to cut weight.

    If a 5'5", 95 pound girl came on the forums and asked if she should eat under her BMR, good advice would be not to - but then again, good advice for that girl would be to not eat a caloric deficit period, regardless if it's under or over BMR. If your focus is on BMR for purposes other than calculating your calorie goals for the day (e.g., TDEE), odds are you're doing it wrong.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
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    Can you give me one source that says any of that about eating below your BMR, though? I've asked here a hundred times and no one has. They give me sources that say eating VLCD can cause some of that, but VLCD is typically considered to be more like 800 and under. Most people's BMR is double that and higher. Even the 1200 floor MFP uses is 50% over it, and below everyone's BMR (virtually). I do think using BMR as some arbitrary floor value is a myth that you only see here and on some other weight loss forums so I don't consider it generally good advice. Though I know it's well-meaning and people do 100% believe it's true, what they're saying.

    A 5'6" woman @130 lbs might have a BMR of 1200 (say about 30% bf)

    But let's go a little higher and work with a guy. Say approximately 1,560 calories per day.
    Would that work for you? Would you like some research that shows deleterious effects of long-term calorie restriction at that level?

    It is called the Minnesota Starvation Experiment.
    A 30 year old, 5'6" woman at 130 would have a BMR of nearly 1400, and she'd be close to underweight BMI.

    And, yes, I'd be ok with studies showing long term negative effects from an *overweight* guy eating at 1560.
  • parkscs
    parkscs Posts: 1,639 Member
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    The more common scenario on the MFP forums is a woman who's 220 pounds, 5'6" and 30 years old, and people advising her that she should never eat under her BMR. Maybe she should, maybe she shouldn't, but either way her BMR isn't the decisive factor.
  • Iwishyouwell
    Iwishyouwell Posts: 1,888 Member
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    I just did a post in another thread that got me thinking about the 5% (or whatever) who do maintain.

    Some of the studies I've seen have success criteria as little as 1 year, and some I've seen 5 years being the cut off.

    It makes me wonder how many people fall off the ship after year 5. Because technically I once fit the "success" statistic. If I was being studied the first time I lost a substantial amount of weight, starting as a teenager, and you checked on me after 5 years, you'd see I had maintained my weight (with fluctuations up and down but never anywhere close to my starting size). I'd be part of the elusive minority who was able to keep it off, a prime candidate for the NWCR.

    Yet I eventually regained it all, and doubled that original loss in gains. How many other people in the minority of successful maintainers in any study regained eventually after they were stamped a long term success? I wonder.
  • Iwishyouwell
    Iwishyouwell Posts: 1,888 Member
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    It is called the Minnesota Starvation Experiment.

    The men in the Minnesota Starvation Experiment:

    A. Did not start obese.
    B. They were expected to continue their same level of exercise during the starvation phase as the previous ones.

    Not a particularly analogous group with the typical overweight and obese person you see around here.

    Most people, especially men, who are screamed at to never go below 1200 calories will not look like this after 24 weeks on a 1500 calorie diet:

    52260768-Small.jpg
    DanMiller.jpg

    Hell some of them won't even look like most of these guys BEFORE pictures.