Toxic Friend
Replies
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It sounds to me like your friend needs serious help. And the only one who can give him that help is him. Your caring and concern are admirable. But you can't cure him of his depression.
I agree, it's the same with my weight. No one could lose it for me, I had to admit there was a problem to myself, take responsibility for it and work towards fixing it. It's made me a lot less sympathetic to people who won't take responsibility for themselves.0 -
I was in a relationship like that.
My ex was a complete drain of my energy and mood, she treated me like her doormat and said everything I did, said, liked and was, who I talked to, my family, etc was wrong and I was so depressed (I completely trusted her with everything) I even tried to kill myself. Glad I am out of that.
Get away from people who are happy being unhappy.0 -
I really feel for you. It is difficult for people to be objective about themselves and when you throw mental illness into the mix, it is near impossible. Your friend is very lucky to have someone who cares so much about him. I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit. Up to you if you want to have the discussion first about believing he needs some help, or if you just leave it behind and not mention anything. I guess it just depends on how you think he'll react. Basically, he can choose to call or not call, but either way it would be his choice and nobody else would need to know. Also, could you speak with a naturopath about some supplements that may help his depression? People have mixed feelings about naturopaths (personally, I think you have to be careful that whatever you take doesn't interfere with any other medication prescribed by a doctor). If you were to purchase something from a naturopath, again you could just leave it behind the next time you're at your friends house with a dosage recommendation the naturopath would give you.
Just my thoughts. In the end, you need to do what is best for you. Good luck.0 -
Unfortunately, sometimes you have to cut ties with people...even life-long friends. I've cut ties with family. If people are poison, it's in your best interest. It really doesn't matter who they are; mom, dad, friend, cousin. You are separately people. You have to cut them out. You have to allow yourself the freedom, and more importantly, the permission, to grow.
I agree, it's just hard. It won't be a particularly pleasant conversation to have with him as he's quite used to getting his own way with things and doesn't react well otherwise.
Jeez, the more I write about him the more I realise how much a jerk he is. Don't get me wrong, we've had some really fun times but I've always tread on eggshells around him which isn't a friendship.0 -
I had a very similar situation with a very good friend of mine. Unfortunately for me then answer has been to cut ties and move on. I tried talking to her, I tried asking for some space and time and nothing really worked and the situation continued to go on as toxic. Eventually I had to choose what was most important to me and that was my well being and my sanity. I care about this friend very much and hope to one day reconnect but I'm not sure that will ever happen. For now, I'm living a good life and looking out for myself. I wish you the best of luck with this situation.
Thank you, I hope I can do the same, it will just be an awful conversation to have due to his attitude.
I feel extremely self-centred doing this but I have to look out for number 1 primarily, as should he.0 -
Unfortunately, sometimes you have to cut ties with people...even life-long friends. I've cut ties with family. If people are poison, it's in your best interest. It really doesn't matter who they are; mom, dad, friend, cousin. You are separately people. You have to cut them out. You have to allow yourself the freedom, and more importantly, the permission, to grow.
I agree, it's just hard. It won't be a particularly pleasant conversation to have with him as he's quite used to getting his own way with things and doesn't react well otherwise.
Jeez, the more I write about him the more I realise how much a jerk he is. Don't get me wrong, we've had some really fun times but I've always tread on eggshells around him which isn't a friendship.
I cut ties with some of my family as well. They were always toxic in my life, always dragging me down into their drama and their misery. I got to a point that I realized that despite the fact that they are family, they didn't really care as much as they said they did or they wouldn't do this, and I left. Not a single regret.0 -
Having been there myself with clinical depression - Maybe someone needs to make him get treatment. (not you, it's not your place, but you can alert people who can help him)... One of the problems with depression is it makes you lose your will to live or do anything, and that can make it impossible to get yourself together enough to get treatment. It sounds like he's got a serious dose of that. Are his family aware of just how ill he is? Because if someone's going to make an intervention like forcing him to get help, it should come from his family rather than a friend. If his family are not taking his illness seriously, then maybe speak to a mental health support group for further advice about how to help him.
This is an illness, it's not apathy or not wanting to change. Depression seriously messes up your brain chemistry. I agree that someone who has mental illness needs to take responsibility for it and it's only them that can do what it takes to get well (whether it's taking medication, doing therapy, or whatever) but there is a point in mental illness where you're too far gone to be able to do that, and that's why doctors will section/commit people against their will. He says he doesn't trust doctors... this refusal to get help, whether the doctor thing is an excuse or the main reason, is a serious issue... but it doesn't mean he can't be helped.
Even if you don't want to hang around with him any more (understandable if his illness has gone beyond what you can cope with), don't just leave him without trying to alert someone else who cares about him to his very poor mental state, because he's going to be even more isolated and it's like he's in a deep, black pit he can't get out of on his own, and people leaving him or giving him ultimatums isn't going to motivate him to get help, because his brain chemistry is already too messed up to do this. He'll just stay in that pit. Someone needs to know he's in there, including people who can get him out (psychiatrists etc). Contact someone in his family that he's close to and tell them how worried you are about him and that he needs help and won't get help by himself (because of his illness). If they don't take you seriously, or if they also don't know what to do about it, then contact a mental health charity/support group for further advice, and take it from there.0 -
I would give him space in the most polite way possible.
Then do whatever it is that you two enjoy the most, and mention really casually how much he is affecting you and also how you are worried about him.
Failing that... how old are you? Can you speak to his parents in confidence? other than that i dont think there is anything else you can do...0 -
I've had many of these in my time. My best friend was also very toxic (in different ways). I was being treated very poorly. Being used and abused I guess you could say. I always let things roll off my back and tried to accept her for how she was and just thought that it's just how she was and how she treated people, until she started treating me extremely poorly going behind my back and doing things that a person just shouldn't do. It took other people outside of the situation to open my eyes and tell me that that's not how a relationship with a best friend should go and to this day I haven't talked to her since. It's been about a year or little over.
My point being is that once you do cut ties it sucks and you do miss certain parts of the friendship but as of now I only find myself missing old fun memories not necessarily her as a person. I no longer have her toxic self in my life and it's shown to be much better off for myself. People can't always be the best version of themselves every minute of every day it's human to make mistakes and be in a bad mood once in awhile but when it becomes a habit and it starts to affect the people around them they can't blame you for not wanting to be involved in it. Sometimes you have to look out for number 1. And you shouldn't feel bad for looking out for number one after you've tried multiple times to be the good friend and help out, you at least tried. There's only so much you can do.
If you can't change the people around you, change the people you are around.0 -
I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit.
Thank you for the ideas, but I have attempted this before and he always has an answer to go against it.
Hell, when he said he didn't want to see a doctor about his infected toe I suggested he ring NHS Direct (a british telephone service where you can get certain prescriptions faxed to the pharmacy without seeing a doctor) and he wouldn't do it.0 -
The truth hurts.... But it sounds like with this guy he wont feel it.
You need to tell him like it is. Make sure you make a point that you concider him your best friend. I wouldn't dance around the subject at hand either, be firm and straight forward. Make sure its about how you feel around him, and not how he is. Finish with you are there for him if he needs you.
Before he has a chance to even say whatever, walk away. But be prepared to not hear from him for a while or ever.
I've severed some ties. All have been great moves. Remember to forgive yourself for walking away, its not your problem and you tried like hell.0 -
Failing that... how old are you? Can you speak to his parents in confidence? other than that i dont think there is anything else you can do...
26, he's two weeks younger than me. I think the parents are a dead end, they seem to be the least social people I've ever met, even if I say "hello" to them they seem to grunt and walk past, lovely family that.0 -
I have been there, and it is a difficult situation. I personally understand what depression is like, but when someone refuses to do any of the work it takes to improve their situation, it becomes a " misery loves company" type of thing. People who insist on constantly being negative trigger my own issues, and although I am willing to do just about anything for a friend, my own mental/ physical health always comes first. You can help someone, but it is pointless if they aren't willing to help themselves.0
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I've severed some ties. All have been great moves. Remember to forgive yourself for walking away, its not your problem and you tried like hell.
Yeah, I've just got to remember that. I've been the best possible friend I could be to Dave but unfortunately it's 99% me and 1% him most of the time.0 -
I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit.
Thank you for the ideas, but I have attempted this before and he always has an answer to go against it.
Hell, when he said he didn't want to see a doctor about his infected toe I suggested he ring NHS Direct (a british telephone service where you can get certain prescriptions faxed to the pharmacy without seeing a doctor) and he wouldn't do it.
Call NHS and talk to them about your concerns about his mental health. They will be able to help him. Tell them all of it, his refusal to get treatment even for his toe, and how he's not getting treatment for depression. He needs help, and it's not the kind of help you can give him, but you can alert people who can help him about what's going on.
They can and do take calls about people who are concerned about other people's mental health, he doesn't have to call them himself to get help, although it's better if he talks to them.0 -
What would Pooh do?
Nah, but seriously, it people are constantly bringing you down, and never do anything to bring you up, you have to ask yourself what the relationship is really worth. Sometimes the best things for us are the most difficult things to do.
In Eyeore's defense, he does have a nail stuck up his butt. So his depression is understandable. Lol.0 -
I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit.
Thank you for the ideas, but I have attempted this before and he always has an answer to go against it.
Hell, when he said he didn't want to see a doctor about his infected toe I suggested he ring NHS Direct (a british telephone service where you can get certain prescriptions faxed to the pharmacy without seeing a doctor) and he wouldn't do it.
You've done what you can. You've worked hard to get yourself healthy, don't let somebody take that away from you. Let him know how you feel, that you will always be there for him when he decides to take control of his life, and walk away.0 -
I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit.
Thank you for the ideas, but I have attempted this before and he always has an answer to go against it.
Hell, when he said he didn't want to see a doctor about his infected toe I suggested he ring NHS Direct (a british telephone service where you can get certain prescriptions faxed to the pharmacy without seeing a doctor) and he wouldn't do it.
Call NHS and talk to them about your concerns about his mental health. They will be able to help him. Tell them all of it, his refusal to get treatment even for his toe, and how he's not getting treatment for depression. He needs help, and it's not the kind of help you can give him, but you can alert people who can help him about what's going on.
They can and do take calls about people who are concerned about other people's mental health, he doesn't have to call them himself to get help, although it's better if he talks to them.
The thing is I'm virtually certain he's been to counselling/therapy before but then just gave it up for one reason or another, along with the medication.
At one point I was given a mild anti-depressant to help me sleep and he was telling me not to take them which indicated to me that he'd stopped taking his, hence when I actually got put on them to level my mood I never told him
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I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit.
Thank you for the ideas, but I have attempted this before and he always has an answer to go against it.
Hell, when he said he didn't want to see a doctor about his infected toe I suggested he ring NHS Direct (a british telephone service where you can get certain prescriptions faxed to the pharmacy without seeing a doctor) and he wouldn't do it.
You've done what you can. You've worked hard to get yourself healthy, don't let somebody take that away from you. Let him know how you feel, that you will always be there for him when he decides to take control of his life, and walk away.
Agreed, thank you. I've been at some terrifically low points in my life, especially in the last few years, and never projected them on to any one else. Yes I have taken a while to get them sorted but I have started now and am making great progress in fixing my life and like you say I can't have a self destructive person take that away from me.0 -
I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit.
Thank you for the ideas, but I have attempted this before and he always has an answer to go against it.
Hell, when he said he didn't want to see a doctor about his infected toe I suggested he ring NHS Direct (a british telephone service where you can get certain prescriptions faxed to the pharmacy without seeing a doctor) and he wouldn't do it.
You've done what you can. You've worked hard to get yourself healthy, don't let somebody take that away from you. Let him know how you feel, that you will always be there for him when he decides to take control of his life, and walk away.
Given what the OPs said and what I know about clinical depression, it's very possible that this guy is not able to make that decision because the depression is too far gone. I really don't think it's good advice to just leave him without any contact with people who can help him. I understand if the OP is feeling out of his depth, but NHS direct do take calls from peopel concerned with other people's mental health - he can call NHS direct and tell them all his concerns about this friend and they should be able to help his friend, even if he wants to step back from the friendship for a while. But with severe depression, the person can't always make a decision to get treatment like that, which is why mental health professionals will sometimes decide to intervene even if someone's refusing treatment, if they judge that person is not in a fit mental state to make decisions like that for themselves.
Whether such intervention is necessary would be the call of NHS direct- but if it is and no-one knows how ill this guy is, then no-one can help him.0 -
I agree with the other posters - he needs to be willing to seek help. You can't fix him by yourself. However, maybe you can takes steps to make it easier for him to get help.
You said he is too stubborn to speak with a doctor himself. What if you looked into different therapists in your area and received information from them on ways they can help and their pricing. You could take this information and just leave it at his house the next time you're there for a visit.
Thank you for the ideas, but I have attempted this before and he always has an answer to go against it.
Hell, when he said he didn't want to see a doctor about his infected toe I suggested he ring NHS Direct (a british telephone service where you can get certain prescriptions faxed to the pharmacy without seeing a doctor) and he wouldn't do it.
Call NHS and talk to them about your concerns about his mental health. They will be able to help him. Tell them all of it, his refusal to get treatment even for his toe, and how he's not getting treatment for depression. He needs help, and it's not the kind of help you can give him, but you can alert people who can help him about what's going on.
They can and do take calls about people who are concerned about other people's mental health, he doesn't have to call them himself to get help, although it's better if he talks to them.
The thing is I'm virtually certain he's been to counselling/therapy before but then just gave it up for one reason or another, along with the medication.
At one point I was given a mild anti-depressant to help me sleep and he was telling me not to take them which indicated to me that he'd stopped taking his, hence when I actually got put on them to level my mood I never told him
You can still discuss this with NHS direct though... refusal to take medication can be a symptom of the illness... whoever treated him before may not be aware he's doing this. It does sound like he needs more help - I don't think you can help him beyond letting people know what's going on. And to be honest, that's all I'm saying you should do, i.e. just let them know what's going on.0 -
I've severed some ties. All have been great moves. Remember to forgive yourself for walking away, its not your problem and you tried like hell.
Yeah, I've just got to remember that. I've been the best possible friend I could be to Dave but unfortunately it's 99% me and 1% him most of the time.
Then it's time for a separation or divorce.... Why do I act like this is a Marriage? Because you should be married to your best friend, not literally, but those friendships should be like a marriage, 50/50 or at least a point either way.
Before I married my wife, a friend of mine asked me who my best friend was. Not thinking about it I say my buddies name. He said then your getting married to the wrong person. It made me chuckle, so I thought I would share. lol0 -
Also, just to add, if you call NHS direct and they sya there's nothing that can be done - then you can leave the situation knowing tht you did all that you could.0
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Also, just to add, if you call NHS direct and they sya there's nothing that can be done - then you can leave the situation knowing tht you did all that you could.
Yeah okay, just wanted to avoid feeling responsible for him when he has family that should be doing that.0 -
Real friendship isn't about being completely selfless all of the time. No relationship can be successful if it's entirely one-sided.
Successful relationships are reciprocal. There may not be equal 50-50 give all of the time - sometimes one person will give more than another to help the other through a tough time, but it shouldn't be that way always.
You are not responsible for his (or anybody's) happiness.
You are responsible for yours.
If helping him brings you happiness and you enjoy it, keep doing it.
If it's emotionally draining, taking up a ton of your energy and time, and is a soul suck, you should taper off.
I have allowed a number of toxic relationships to exist in my past. I will never do it again. Even if the person is related to me. I won't cut people off - I'm not cold. But I will limit how much of myself I am willing to invest in someone who is incapable of helping himself or herself.
Hope that perspective helps. And I hope your friend will get some help.
I have a similar 'toxic' friend... and this is brilliant advice, thank you.0 -
I've severed some ties. All have been great moves. Remember to forgive yourself for walking away, its not your problem and you tried like hell.
Yeah, I've just got to remember that. I've been the best possible friend I could be to Dave but unfortunately it's 99% me and 1% him most of the time.
Then it's time for a separation or divorce.... Why do I act like this is a Marriage? Because you should be married to your best friend, not literally, but those friendships should be like a marriage, 50/50 or at least a point either way.
Before I married my wife, a friend of mine asked me who my best friend was. Not thinking about it I say my buddies name. He said then your getting married to the wrong person. It made me chuckle, so I thought I would share. lol
Funny you should say that, I lived with a friend for a good few years (he went funny near the end because I bought my own place and he had to move in with his sister) and whenever I talk about him it does sound like a divorce!
Yeah, I went on holiday with Dave for four days just to Amsterdam and I wanted to throttle him by day three so I agree with your marriage analogy!0 -
Also, just to add, if you call NHS direct and they sya there's nothing that can be done - then you can leave the situation knowing tht you did all that you could.
Yeah okay, just wanted to avoid feeling responsible for him when he has family that should be doing that.
Do they know what's going on? I agree it is their responsibility not yours. And really your responsibility ends in letting others who can help know what's going on.0 -
Real friendship isn't about being completely selfless all of the time. No relationship can be successful if it's entirely one-sided.
Successful relationships are reciprocal. There may not be equal 50-50 give all of the time - sometimes one person will give more than another to help the other through a tough time, but it shouldn't be that way always.
You are not responsible for his (or anybody's) happiness.
You are responsible for yours.
If helping him brings you happiness and you enjoy it, keep doing it.
If it's emotionally draining, taking up a ton of your energy and time, and is a soul suck, you should taper off.
I have allowed a number of toxic relationships to exist in my past. I will never do it again. Even if the person is related to me. I won't cut people off - I'm not cold. But I will limit how much of myself I am willing to invest in someone who is incapable of helping himself or herself.
Hope that perspective helps. And I hope your friend will get some help.
I have a similar 'toxic' friend... and this is brilliant advice, thank you.
Agreed.0 -
Also, just to add, if you call NHS direct and they sya there's nothing that can be done - then you can leave the situation knowing tht you did all that you could.
Yeah okay, just wanted to avoid feeling responsible for him when he has family that should be doing that.
Do they know what's going on? I agree it is their responsibility not yours. And really your responsibility ends in letting others who can help know what's going on.
I couldn't possibly say, I don't think they like me a great deal after I took Dave to get his first tattoo (I found out later they absolutely despise tattoos) and I got the blame for it despite him being 21 years old. To be honest they should know if they live with him, just from walking in there yesterday it's immediately apparent.0 -
I've been there too with my friends. I spent the better part of 2013 trying to encourage a group of friends to take the path of health and fitness. Now, I am no where near the end of my journey but I would hear them say they needed someone to help motivate them to get moving and make healthy food choices. So I was that girl. Always sending out encouragement, offering to go to fitness classes, bringing healthy snacks for them to try. When the resistance outweighed the participation and when the complaining began to carry over to my life I decided to break ties. I am ashamed to say that it got so bad that I stopped working out and eating healthy because I didn't want to get too far ahead on my journey and make them think I left them behind. That resulted in a 30 pound weight gain over the winter that only now I starting to fall off because I have re-dedicated myself to my journey. The moral to my story? As much as you may love your friend and want what is best for him you cannot change him or make him want it for himself. You have to be true to your journey. The saying goes: "if you can't change the people aroind you then CHANGE the people around you." Good luck!0
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