The Age Old Debate: Organic or Conventional
Replies
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The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.
I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.
One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.
Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.
Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.
I should have mentioned that even though I quoted another comment, I intended this to be more along the lines of the general conversation than to point at one person. I am enjoying this thread. I think it's a healthy debate and I mean no disrespect.0 -
What I do know, or what the evidence that I've read seems to point to, is that growing GMO crops in monoculture is bad for our environment, is by and large unsustainable, and is therefore an mostly undesirable process.
Yes, I think if there's a cause for concern, that's it.
I think it's pretty much settled these days that organic/non-gmo foods aren't really any more or less healthier for you, the individual, directly, than the alternative. But man-made pesticides and genetic modification can sometimes (not always!) be used as tools in processes that can have longer-term negative externalities.
So I suppose the question is, what's the best way to handle those cases? Is avoiding GM produce at the grocery store the best way to encourage more responsible farming practices? To what extent does it discourage legitimate GM benefits, such as reducing hunger in developing countries?
The use of GMOs to reduce hunger in developing countries has already been shown to be an unnecessary measure.
Source please.
Yes, I second that. Source please.0 -
I may need to switch my avatar for this one. Look, I work in marine ecology. There are some major concerns about ecosystem effects from large scale farming practices, and as someone has already mentioned, monoculture crops etc. are also an issue. But let me be clear on this.... NONE of the scientific concerns relating to organic farming practices or GMO's have ANYTHING to do with whether the foods are harmful for the consumer. These are large scale ecosystem effects, and ecologist's very real concerns are getting drowned out by a bunch of scare mongering propaganda and turning the entire issue in to a damn joke so that the real problems get swept under the rug and aren't being dealt with. /end rant.
A thousand times this. We are growing at an unsustainable rate and GMO's and monocultures are simply trying to feed the world. And with the rate of growth in our population, soon enough, we'll need all the help we can get.
One big issue with GMOs is that they encourage pesticide and herbicide use around the crops, which reduces pollinator diversity and can affect large-scale ecosystem processes. The genes being put into these are producing chemicals that won't affect YOU personally, at all. Just other organisms trying to eat the crops or compete with them.
If you want delicious food, choose locally grown heirloom fruits and vegetables that were bred for flavor, and not for being shipped halfway around the world.0 -
I usually buy what's fresher and I buy local whenever possible (which tends to be organic).
How do you know that the local produce is organic? Where do you buy it?0 -
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The use of GMOs to reduce hunger in developing countries has already been shown to be an unnecessary measure.
Source please.
Yes, I second that. Source please.
If I remember correctly the quoted user doesn't like providing backup for her claims. She'll instead direct you to "do your own research."
I dunno' about that, but it would be interesting to learn how the claim is true, if it is. I'm a sceptic.
Besides, I'm up to my eyeballs learning about basic nutrition already.0 -
The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.
I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.
One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.
Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.
Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.
I should have mentioned that even though I quoted another comment, I intended this to be more along the lines of the general conversation than to point at one person. I am enjoying this thread. I think it's a healthy debate and I mean no disrespect.
Not at all. I agree that we've gotten really good in some respects.
However, I wasn't speaking of erosion and water management directly, but the ecology of soil microorganisms and their impact on flooding and soil health.0 -
Yes, I second that. Source please.Source please.
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Yes, I second that. Source please.Source please.
^^^^ Why I can't attend political conventions.0 -
Yes, I second that. Source please.Source please.
^^^^ Why I can't attend political conventions.
And why nobody trust politicians.0 -
The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.
I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.
One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.
Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.
Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.
I should have mentioned that even though I quoted another comment, I intended this to be more along the lines of the general conversation than to point at one person. I am enjoying this thread. I think it's a healthy debate and I mean no disrespect.
Not at all. I agree that we've gotten really good in some respects.
However, I wasn't speaking of erosion and water management directly, but the ecology of soil microorganisms and their impact on flooding and soil health.
On that note, one of my bigger interests is how we could promote high yield agriculture and still maintain a healthy, thriving organic soil layer in crop lands.
The only problem is that I have dozens of questions and few, if any answers. It's complicated, but if someone comes up with a cost effective solutuion, they could become a billionaire and a lot of the questionable practices existing now would likely be a lot less neccessary.
Still, on the original topic, I say buy what you can afford and what makes you feel best, but don't drink the organic coolaid.0 -
I grow some things because, well, I like gardening. Other than that, I refuse to fall for any money grabbing ploy that wants me to pay more for something just because it has a trendy label.0
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The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.
I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.
One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.
Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.
Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.
I should have mentioned that even though I quoted another comment, I intended this to be more along the lines of the general conversation than to point at one person. I am enjoying this thread. I think it's a healthy debate and I mean no disrespect.
Not at all. I agree that we've gotten really good in some respects.
However, I wasn't speaking of erosion and water management directly, but the ecology of soil microorganisms and their impact on flooding and soil health.
On that note, one of my bigger interests is how we could promote high yield agriculture and still maintain a healthy, thriving organic soil layer in crop lands.
The only problem is that I have dozens of questions and few, if any answers. It's complicated, but if someone comes up with a cost effective solution, they could become a billionaire and a lot of the questionable practices existing now would likely be a lot less necessary.
Still, on the original topic, I say buy what you can afford and what makes you feel best, but don't drink the organic koolaid.
That would be freaking amazing.0 -
The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.
I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.
One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.
Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.
Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.
I should have mentioned that even though I quoted another comment, I intended this to be more along the lines of the general conversation than to point at one person. I am enjoying this thread. I think it's a healthy debate and I mean no disrespect.
Not at all. I agree that we've gotten really good in some respects.
However, I wasn't speaking of erosion and water management directly, but the ecology of soil microorganisms and their impact on flooding and soil health.
On that note, one of my bigger interests is how we could promote high yield agriculture and still maintain a healthy, thriving organic soil layer in crop lands.
The only problem is that I have dozens of questions and few, if any answers. It's complicated, but if someone comes up with a cost effective solutuion, they could become a billionaire and a lot of the questionable practices existing now would likely be a lot less neccessary.
Still, on the original topic, I say buy what you can afford and what makes you feel best, but don't drink the organic coolaid.
Yup. :drinker:
But I will fight to the death over two issues, my organic milk tastes better and the tomatoes I grow myself taste WAY BETTER.
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I like organic for fruits and veggies that I don't peel, but anything else is determined by price, availabitlity, and common sense.0
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The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.
I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.
One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.
Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.
Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.
I should have mentioned that even though I quoted another comment, I intended this to be more along the lines of the general conversation than to point at one person. I am enjoying this thread. I think it's a healthy debate and I mean no disrespect.
Not at all. I agree that we've gotten really good in some respects.
However, I wasn't speaking of erosion and water management directly, but the ecology of soil microorganisms and their impact on flooding and soil health.
On that note, one of my bigger interests is how we could promote high yield agriculture and still maintain a healthy, thriving organic soil layer in crop lands.
The only problem is that I have dozens of questions and few, if any answers. It's complicated, but if someone comes up with a cost effective solutuion, they could become a billionaire and a lot of the questionable practices existing now would likely be a lot less neccessary.
Still, on the original topic, I say buy what you can afford and what makes you feel best, but don't drink the organic coolaid.
Yup. :drinker:
But I will fight to the death over two issues, my organic milk tastes better and the tomatoes I grow myself taste WAY BETTER.
I sure can't argue with home grown tomatoes. I do absolutely believe that a person can produce a higher or even premium quality produce in their back yard much more easily than they can buy one. Just from the meat side, having a few egg layers and some meat rabbits is super easy and the quality is controllable. As for the eggs, a very noticeable difference in taste and freshness. I'm just now moving toward the rabbits so I can't yet comment from my own experience. By the way, rabbit manure is the only one to don't need to compost before using it in your yard. Who knew hat rabbit manure wasn't bull****?
To my mind, that alone is a good argument for converting part of your backyard to homegrown.0 -
Organic is very much a marketing term. Monsanto distributes most of the seeds used in the US, how organic can you be? Even though you go to a farmer market, you need to understand those guys dont plant their stuff so you can go buy them on saturdays.
The industry very well understood the "organic" market and is using it maasively to attract new customers.
As a side exmample, I know from someone from the industry that to obtain the "Free Range" eggs label, you need to allow the chicken to be having a free space of feet about 15 mn per day. We are far of the happy chicken running in the green grass most buyers of free range eggs have...
SO yes organic is better as not processed if you can have it, the question is...is it really organic..0 -
I buy it if it tastes/looks better. Fruit often does and I'm very happy with it then but sometimes its worse and that makes me pretty grumpy haha!0
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I seriously doubt we need GMOs in order to grow enough volume of food to feed the world. If anything, we need GMOs to make it possible to grow staple food in seemingly hostile environments where it currently can't grow and is sorely needed.
I don't want to get all Walter Berglund on everything, but I do question if eventually we won't get to a point where we bend over backwards to feed the absurdly large population of the world.0 -
I can't possibly be the only one who is confused about how this is an "age old debate" when the terms "organic" and "conventional" are fairly recent additions to are produce markets?
As for 'conventional' vs 'organic'
I'm the one doesn't wash her produce before eating it.
yeah. Pretty sure that answers the question.... but in case it doesn't- I pretty much only buy organic when I'm at Wegmans- (which is like 1 a year) because it's all they sell. Otherwise- no- I buy what's on sale. Cannot be bothered.0 -
I actively avoid anything labeled "organic."
Our homegrown tomatoes are better than anything in a store and they aren't grown organically. It seems to me to be more a question of the type of tomato and we don't need to grow transportable tomatoes or pick them early.0 -
I feel mostly that Organic is a marketing ploy, much like low carb, cholesterol free, low fat, gluten free, and lite.
This one time I got organic bananas because they were out of regular at the store. Tasted yuck. That's not an intellectual argument, it's just a personal observation from one time. I paid more for added suck.0 -
There may be times when that makes sense, but probably never with regard to groceries.I feel mostly that Organic is a marketing ploy, much like low carb, cholesterol free, low fat, gluten free, and lite.
This one time I got organic bananas because they were out of regular at the store. Tasted yuck. That's not an intellectual argument, it's just a personal observation from one time. I paid more for added suck.0 -
I buy organic for philosophical reasons when I support the approach of that farmer (land conservation etc). I don't think the food is actually different. It is made in a different way that I support when it is done responsibly (e.g. not withholding medicine from animals just to keep certification).0
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I usually buy what's fresher and I buy local whenever possible (which tends to be organic).
How do you know that the local produce is organic? Where do you buy it?
Local markets where it's advertised, farmer's markets, a delivery service that works directly with local farmers, etc. I'm also down the road from a farm that raises grass-fed beef, super tasty chickens (no clue what they feed them, but yum) and some other products. That said, I have it pretty good here when it comes to local options for fresh produce.0 -
I favour frozen veggies. From the moment vegetables are harvested they start to decrease in nutritional value.
I'd assume that remains the same be they "organic" or "conventional" (whatever that terms supposed to mean).0 -
I can't afford organic. And honestly, I probably wouldn't seek it out if I could, because when things are labeled non-GMO or organic it just makes me think the company is encouraging fear-mongering and manipulating the public.0
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A friend sent me this: http://truththeory.com/2013/02/11/food-the-ultimate-secret-exposed-movie/0
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I buy produce at Walmart. Ain't nobody got time or money for organic produce (and by nobody I mean my husband and I. And even if we did have the time and money we'd spend it on other stuff. Like video games)0
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I have absolutely no interest in supporting the organic movement, the shaky science on which most of the pro-organic arguments are made, or the outright scaremongering. I buy regular fruits and vegetables.0
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