21 day 5000 calorie challenge: debunking the calorie myth?
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Well the calories in calories out model IS a myth - that's just science. the body pursues homeostasis regardless of the number of calories in and the number out. Carbohydrates will tend to add to adipose tissue (i.e. grow fat). so if you eat a lot of carbohydrates you can expect to gain fat.
Except for 20-30 years ago when high-carb, low fat was the fad, and people still managed to lose weight back then.
Almost 70% of the population is now overweight and guess when that started... in the 80's when the government food pyramid came out with the suggested 6-11 servings of carbs. In the 70's, before the "healthy whole grain' craze less than 16% of the population was overweight or obese.
because it is that simple :noway:
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Well the calories in calories out model IS a myth - that's just science. the body pursues homeostasis regardless of the number of calories in and the number out. Carbohydrates will tend to add to adipose tissue (i.e. grow fat). so if you eat a lot of carbohydrates you can expect to gain fat.
Except for 20-30 years ago when high-carb, low fat was the fad, and people still managed to lose weight back then.
Almost 70% of the population is now overweight and guess when that started... in the 80's when the government food pyramid came out with the suggested 6-11 servings of carbs. In the 70's, before the "healthy whole grain' craze less than 16% of the population was overweight or obese.
because it is that simple :noway:
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interesting0
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Yeah whatever, have fun dude, but this is bad science. You can't debunk anything with ONE subject. Where's the control group?0
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this whole argument is just one big pissing contest. im sure there is merit to both sides. ill stick with what has lost me (and a ton of others) 70 lbs0
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Many on paleo/primal can lose a lot of weight fast without counting calories. However, many on a diet to begin with are coming from a standard American diet (SAD) and are already metabolically damaged. In those cases it sometimes requires going on the lower carb side of paleo/primal and/or counting calories in order to lose weight (both would be best). Once the weight is lost, sometimes you can come off the very low carb and calorie counting if you've restored enough insulin sensitivity and healed elsewhere.0
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My last comment was a reply to someone stating they didn't start losing on paleo until counting calories.
To add more to the general topic: The idea of quality food and not needing to count calories is very much true for paleo/primal, but it has to be viewed in the proper context and adjusted for when there is metabolic damage already done. Calories in / calories out (CICO) isn't the complete way to view weight management even though it ends up working in a lot of cases. Restricting calories often works, but the equation is not the entire picture, so weight loss comes for some without a complete understanding of why. Then there are those that cannot lose with the CICO model, and they are told they don't have enough will power. That's not always true.
On the other end, not everyone can push calories way over base metabolic rate and not gain even if eating paleo. The 5,000 calorie thing is more of a test/concept that can sometimes demonstrate what's wrong with CICO, but if you are metabolically damaged or just cannot tolerate unnaturally high calories, you may gain.
There are two primary mechanisms in why not counting calories often works with paleo. One is related to this calorie topic directly in that the amount of calories in food from a thermodynamic perspective doesn't 1:1 translate into a perfectly efficient closed energy system in the body to where CICO would be applicable. That's what the 5,000 calorie challenge can demonstrate. CICO doesn't account for what the body actually does with the actual amount of energy that becomes available to the cells. Here is something to help explain that (not proof, just more very good info):
http://garytaubes.com/2012/11/what-would-happen-if-thoughts-and-thought-experiments-on-the-calorie-issue/
The second reason why not counting calories often works with paleo is that natural unprocessed whole foods are far more satiating, so you end up eating less while not actually counting and not at all being hungry. Yes that ends up effectively partially supporting the CICO model even though you're not logging the numbers, but it's only one part of the bigger picture. There's crossover in the explanation, and that's why there is confusion and disagreement about CICO.
Eating paleo/primal is the natural diet for homo sapiens, so people will often do best eating that way. What does it all mean?
SAD = You may or may not be very metabolically damaged yet, so you may or may not be overweight and manifesting unhealthy attributes. Generally SAD is making us fat and unhealthy though.
non-paleo CICO = It may be enough to help lose weight even though it's an inaccurate view. It will fail for others. In most cases, you will be hungry if not ravenous. Stopping the caloric restriction may result in regain.
paleo wo counting = It's often enough to lose a lot of fat. As you near a healthy fat percentage, metabolic damage, stress, and other factors may slow or stall loss, but you can get to a very healthy fat percentage if not your exact target. You eat as much as you want and are not hungry; you can eat naturally like that forever, so there is no end of the "diet".
paleo w counting = While counting should be unnecessary, sometimes this is the fastest way to lose, and sometimes it will get you through a stall.0 -
Did anyone read into this guys progress at all? Sorry, but I didn't read through the entire thread. If you go directly to day 21 of this guy's challenge, it reads:Day 21, and I am 96.3kg before breakfast which is 7kg up from my starting AM weight and 0.8kg up from yesterday morning. Last night I was 96.4kg, making my mean for Day 20, 95.95kg, which is +6.25kg from the start! As it was the last day I also weighed myself this evening at 97.3kg, giving me a mean for day 21 at 96.8kg, which is a massive +7.1kg up from the start and +0.1kg above the calorie formula on a 53,872 k/cal surplus.
So, the prediction is he would gain 7kg. Guess what. He gained 7 kg. Shocker, I know, right?0 -
/threadDid anyone read into this guys progress at all? Sorry, but I didn't read through the entire thread. If you go directly to day 21 of this guy's challenge, it reads:
So, the prediction is he would gain 7kg. Guess what. He gained 7 kg. Shocker, I know, right?Day 21, and I am 96.3kg before breakfast which is 7kg up from my starting AM weight and 0.8kg up from yesterday morning. Last night I was 96.4kg, making my mean for Day 20, 95.95kg, which is +6.25kg from the start! As it was the last day I also weighed myself this evening at 97.3kg, giving me a mean for day 21 at 96.8kg, which is a massive +7.1kg up from the start and +0.1kg above the calorie formula on a 53,872 k/cal surplus.
ETA: I have issued a similar challenge to calorie deniers before, they never take it. Fact is even the most holiest and cleanest of foods will result in weight gain if eaten over your TDEE.0 -
Arguing against the first law of thermodynamics?
Ambitious to put it nicely.
THIS. ALL OF THIS.0 -
I tend to doubt that calories in/calories out works so simply as advertised because a digestive system is not a calorimeter. I think what you eat IS important and how your body digests it. Calorie values in food are measured by burning food and measuring the energy released, but how closely does that correlate to how your body processes food and releases the energy into your body? Also depending on your gut biome and other factors, you may absorb some foods better than others leading to differing amounts of calories from different foods that have the same measured calorie level.
Now I think that calories matter, and that it is a good approximation to use, but the differences between biological digestion and scientific measurement may account for some of the differences we are seeing between people in how they gain and lose weight.0 -
Sure you may not absorb all the calories, but you'll never be able to extract more energy from a food item than it contains. So if your food input is less than your energy output, it'll work.I tend to doubt that calories in/calories out works so simply as advertised because a digestive system is not a calorimeter. I think what you eat IS important and how your body digests it. Calorie values in food are measured by burning food and measuring the energy released, but how closely does that correlate to how your body processes food and releases the energy into your body? Also depending on your gut biome and other factors, you may absorb some foods better than others leading to differing amounts of calories from different foods that have the same measured calorie level.
Now I think that calories matter, and that it is a good approximation to use, but the differences between biological digestion and scientific measurement may account for some of the differences we are seeing between people in how they gain and lose weight.0 -
He won't gain that much. He's a trainer, he burns 3000-4000 calories a day in just working lol.0
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hmmm eating clean...does that mean if i wash a double whopper with cheese no tomato and fries that it will be better for me?0
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They don't burn food anymore.I tend to doubt that calories in/calories out works so simply as advertised because a digestive system is not a calorimeter. I think what you eat IS important and how your body digests it. Calorie values in food are measured by burning food and measuring the energy released, but how closely does that correlate to how your body processes food and releases the energy into your body? Also depending on your gut biome and other factors, you may absorb some foods better than others leading to differing amounts of calories from different foods that have the same measured calorie level.
Now I think that calories matter, and that it is a good approximation to use, but the differences between biological digestion and scientific measurement may account for some of the differences we are seeing between people in how they gain and lose weight.
Also what ironanimal said.0 -
Waiting for the book to come out " the 5000 calorie diet":laugh:0
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The answer to how much he gained was only a few posts above you.He won't gain that much. He's a trainer, he burns 3000-4000 calories a day in just working lol.0 -
Maybe next year he will jump 5000 meters every day to try to debunk that gravity myth, once and for all!0
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Should be interesting. Similar things have been done before, for example http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/2/240.full.pdf+html
He's eating low carb too.
That's why I mentioned Paleo. I think that's what he's doing.
Nope. But definitely low carb. Only green beans as a vegetable? Seems like a really good way to be unhealthy to me!0 -
How would eating food debunk the calorie myth, and what is the calorie myth again?
There are a lot of people that do not believe in cals in/out. They feel that it's the quality of the food that matters. So, if you were eating very clean, whatever that means, I guess no junk, no soda, pop tarts, ice cream, cheeseburgers, etc. just clean food. If you eat that way, you can consume 5000 cals a day without gaining.
There are entire groups so passionate about this, and are successful too. As an example, you don't need to count calories eating Paleo/primal. You just don't. If you stick with it.
400g of topside beef; 576 calories, Carbohydrate=0g, Fat= 15.6g, Protein=108g
Also, thats some pretty high quality lean beef hes got there. I wonder if the cows he is eating were training for a Crossfit competition?0 -
The answer to how much he gained was only a few posts above you.He won't gain that much. He's a trainer, he burns 3000-4000 calories a day in just working lol.
Yeah just saw that...oops
I want to show my trainer this....he seems to be one of those people that think the number of calories don't matter, and it's specific foods that make a person fat.0 -
/threadDid anyone read into this guys progress at all? Sorry, but I didn't read through the entire thread. If you go directly to day 21 of this guy's challenge, it reads:
So, the prediction is he would gain 7kg. Guess what. He gained 7 kg. Shocker, I know, right?Day 21, and I am 96.3kg before breakfast which is 7kg up from my starting AM weight and 0.8kg up from yesterday morning. Last night I was 96.4kg, making my mean for Day 20, 95.95kg, which is +6.25kg from the start! As it was the last day I also weighed myself this evening at 97.3kg, giving me a mean for day 21 at 96.8kg, which is a massive +7.1kg up from the start and +0.1kg above the calorie formula on a 53,872 k/cal surplus.
ETA: I have issued a similar challenge to calorie deniers before, they never take it. Fact is even the most holiest and cleanest of foods will result in weight gain if eaten over your TDEE.
The thread seems to be missing some good info. Heres a link to the intro page of what this is all about...
http://live.smashthefat.com/the-21-day-5000-calorie-challenge/
IMO his experiment was a complete FAILURE for what he was trying to accomplish. (debunking CICO)
He says Finally, to work out my potential weight gain I have used the foundation for conventional weight loss which is that 1 pound of fat equals approximately 3,500 calories. Therefore in order to gain 1 pound of fat I must be in a calorie surplus of 3,500 calories. Going by my current weight at the end of the experiment I will be in a calorie surplus of 45,164.1813 making me 5,845.5354654 grams or 5.8 kg (12.7 pounds) heavier than I started!
He hypothesized that he would gain 5.8kg (12.7lbs) and at the end of the 21 days he gained 7kg (~15lbs)
Whats really great about this experiment is that he ate the SAME THING every day for 21 days. <--- now thats a challenge in itself. His macro profile and calorie surplus is excellent example for someone who is looking to gain weight and stay lean. The before / after pictures and measurements speak for themselves which supports all the information found in the following video 100%
Ill just leave this right here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C80W7vmvZ0 0 -
Well people will still come and say that this doesn't mean anything because it was only one person... But very interesting!0
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The answer to how much he gained was only a few posts above you.He won't gain that much. He's a trainer, he burns 3000-4000 calories a day in just working lol.
Yeah just saw that...oops
I want to show my trainer this....he seems to be one of those people that think the number of calories don't matter, and it's specific foods that make a person fat.
You will gain mass when in a surplus. The macros are a major factor in determining what is gained. Lean mass or fat.
A quick glance at Sumo Wrestlers vs Body Builders diets and macro intake are an example of this phenomenon.
A staple item consumed by bodybuilders are copious amounts of lean chicken breast.
A staple item consumed by Sumo Wrestlers are copious amounts of beer.
I wish this guy would do this challenge over again, except change Salmon with pop tarts and Beef with pixie sticks.0 -
How can somebody be completely agnostic about it? I don't believe that. You must have some ideas whether you think it is logic or not. The only thing I can say is that if you eat lean and healthy you must be eating around the clock to even get to 5000 kcal....0
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There was a guy a few years back on one of the BB boards that replaced most of his carbs with "junk" carbs and still entered his contest as lean as previous ones.
The answer to how much he gained was only a few posts above you.He won't gain that much. He's a trainer, he burns 3000-4000 calories a day in just working lol.
Yeah just saw that...oops
I want to show my trainer this....he seems to be one of those people that think the number of calories don't matter, and it's specific foods that make a person fat.
You will gain mass when in a surplus. The macros are a major factor in determining what is gained. Lean mass or fat.
A quick glance at Sumo Wrestlers vs Body Builders diets and macro intake are an example of this phenomenon.
A staple item consumed by bodybuilders are copious amounts of lean chicken breast.
A staple item consumed by Sumo Wrestlers are copious amounts of beer.
I wish this guy would do this challenge over again, except change Salmon with pop tarts and Beef with pixie sticks.0 -
There was a guy a few years back on one of the BB boards that replaced most of his carbs with "junk" carbs and still entered his contest as lean as previous ones.
The answer to how much he gained was only a few posts above you.He won't gain that much. He's a trainer, he burns 3000-4000 calories a day in just working lol.
Yeah just saw that...oops
I want to show my trainer this....he seems to be one of those people that think the number of calories don't matter, and it's specific foods that make a person fat.
You will gain mass when in a surplus. The macros are a major factor in determining what is gained. Lean mass or fat.
A quick glance at Sumo Wrestlers vs Body Builders diets and macro intake are an example of this phenomenon.
A staple item consumed by bodybuilders are copious amounts of lean chicken breast.
A staple item consumed by Sumo Wrestlers are copious amounts of beer.
I wish this guy would do this challenge over again, except change Salmon with pop tarts and Beef with pixie sticks.
He replaced carbs with carbs? :laugh:
I am proposing he replace protein with carbs
ETA: Its a good debate. I remember discussing something similar a few months ago and I challenged someone to eat nothing but reeses pieces peanut butter cups for 30 days and then report back on measurements / weight etc.0 -
Lol why do people want to make this so much harder than it is? I don't understand. Science. Research. Do those things.0
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Man, 5000 calories is alot of food!0
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