Re-Thinking Protein
Replies
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Bro it is too each his/ her own. There is nothing that states that plant based or being vegan is better than meat eaters over all. I don't like propaganda from Blogs unless it is a trusted source and proof to back up the information. I commend anyone to follow his or her own plan to health. this food for thought is one persons opinion and not based on proof. These are just things to become more informed before people actually listen to a fad and not real proof. Some people actually may harm themselves more than they already have being over weight unless they consult a doctor and get the best plan for them however they eat or want to eat. Good luck in your endeavors.Ok...I guess we all choose whatever propaganda makes us feel comfy at night.
Here are a few things to take a look where one was a study from a graduate student that did a study in Palm Beach college. (https://www.palmbeachstate.edu/honors/Documents/AndrewGerren_Sabiduria-Submission.pdf) where the study actual shows that vegans were more emotional distressed than meat eaters.
From Dr. Susan Kleiner - THE ROLE OF RED MEAT IN AN ATHLETE'S DIET (http://www.gssiweb.org/Article/sse-58-the-role-of-red-meat-in-an-athlete's-diet)As vegetarian styles of eating become more popular among athletes, the risk of poorly planned diets leading to nutrient insufficiencies and deficiencies increases. Suboptimal dietary intakes of iron and zinc resulting in decreased nutritional status have been observed in athletes who have eliminated meat. Marginal iron or zinc status may negatively affect exercise performance. Full-blown iron or zinc deficiency will definitely have a negative effect upon exercise performance.
It is possible to obtain all essential nutrients by eating a completely plantbased diet. However, the planning and execution of the diet is critical to both the health and performance of an athlete. Practically speaking, because vegan diets are also typically high in fiber, it may be difficult for an athlete to consume enough food to satisfy nutrient and energy needs without feeling so full that exercise performance is inhibited. Athletes must learn that it is not sufficient to merely cut meats out of the diet; these foods contain essential nutrients that must be carefully replaced by adding other foods to the diet. If the decision to consume a meatless diet is not based upon moral or ethical principles, it may be more practical to encourage the athlete to include some meat in their diet. It is also important that athletes base their dietary decisions on scientific evidence, rather than on myths and misconceptions.
Another Quote from a sports medicine and nutrition doctor."If a student-athlete came to me and said 'I want to make vegetarianism a priority. Can you help?' I would bend over backwards to make recommendations," says Clark. "But no athlete has ever said that to me in my 20 years of working at Penn State. They say 'Tell me what to eat to achieve my desired results in the shortest period of time.'"
Penn State News Kristine Clark, Ph.D., R.D
(http://news.psu.edu/story/141357/2006/05/22/research/probing-question-how-healthy-are-vegetarian-athletes)0 -
Without taking any stance on vegan vs. vegetarianism vs. meat-eating, Forks Over Knives is a terrible "report" based on bad science. In fact, the data they used actually shows the *opposite* of what the authors pretend it shows. http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
There's a reason it was self-published as opposed to peer reviewed.
As a professional researcher, I wouldn't use content from their website as anything but yet another study in how to NOT do science.
Edit: I guess I might also use their website as a great example of "how to get gullible people to click stuff."0 -
The point I wanted to make is that you can lead a strong healthy life-style without meat and without the excessively high amounts of protein that the meat producers want you to believe you need. His article was anecdotal...it never professed to be scholarly. It was based upon his own personal experience... and if you clicked on the links you would see success stories by all types of people and athletes, not just ultra-runners. His approach was not inflammatory or aggressive. In fact, I liked the fact that he recognized this issue between meat-eaters and plant-eaters has taken on the same incendiary characteristics as politics and religion. Although, I find this topic to actually be worthwhile as opposed to the other two,
I was not interested in stirring up arguments, but to me, the ability and willingness to explore alternatives to what is passed off as "gospel truth" by the food industry can be a healthy, wealthy and wise exercise.
Edited for grammar and skipped words.
Actually it is a good read to know what someone might think. No I am not aggressive but the way you are explaining your stance is that it is healthier to live that way than the other. Which in all reality its a combination of things that make it healthier. That may be the reason that people are taking it to heart and to each his/ her own but I am a meat eater and I eat veggies also. I like a variety of foods and food combinations but that doesn't mean vegans are healthier than me. One may choose and not choose a way of life. I am kinda neutral but will flush out blogs that are based on their own thoughts and not research. Thanks0 -
Without taking any stance on vegan vs. vegetarianism vs. meat-eating, Forks Over Knives is a terrible "report" based on bad science. In fact, the data they used actually shows the *opposite* of what the authors pretend it shows. http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
There's a reason it was self-published as opposed to peer reviewed.
As a professional researcher, I wouldn't use content from their website as anything but yet another study in how to NOT do science.
Edit: I guess I might also use their website as a great example of "how to get gullible people to click stuff."
You and I are in the same boat and I agree. Thanks and I posted a research form and one study from a graduate student at a university.
Thanks
Dr. G0 -
If it moos, clucks, oinks, or swims........I'LL EAT IT!!!!!
Yikes! I swim.0 -
T. Colin Campbell and others have done extensive research on casein protein and diseases, most notably cancer.
I did say reputable source.
Drs. Campbell and Esselstyn are not on my most respected list.
I do agree with you - go with what works for you. I, personally, think protein requirements vary widely among individuals. I feel better with animal products in my diet.
I taught a nutrition class for years at a local university and dreaded it every year; one years eggs were bad and coffee was also. The next year, they were on the "good" list and something else was evil. Nutrition recommendations seem to change daily.0 -
best answer to this entire thread I have read. It works for some people and not for others. Both sides are biased and we choose which side we best see ourselves reflected in. Eat what you can to stay healthy and happy, do what works and forget about what doesn't. You hit the nail on the head.0
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and since I dont know how to internet, I was referring to Jim180155's post.0
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The author attended Stanford and Cornell, provides links to performances of plant-based athletes, but doesn't provide links or citations to any of the medical or scientific claims he makes in his article. Seems legit.0
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I am plant-based. Essentially, this means I don’t eat anything with a face or a mother. Animals find this agreeable. I’m also an ultra-endurance athlete.
stopped reading after he volunteered the fact he doesn't know much about biology.
plus i'd imagine protien requirements might be different for a distance athelete then those interested in gaining mucsle or even hanging onto it in a defecit0 -
Where do cows get their protein? From the plants they eat. It stands to reason the same can be true for humans. It is a matter of preference, imho. As I stated, I lived as a raw vegan for over a year. It wasn't the protein I missed so much, it was the cooked foods. The meat just slipped back in but I'm thinking seriously of going back to vegan, vegetarian or pescatarian. I felt better physically and emotionally when I did not eat meat.0
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There have been study after study that have found that the protein requirements for athletes are far lower than what broscience tells you.
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7550257
And yet, we keep hearing that we need to stuff ourselves with protein, that we need at least 1g per lb. of lean body mass, etc. And it's just not true.
This is just straight science, but people hate science.
I eat meat. Only because I (a) like it and (b) it's easier than trying to get my protein requirements from all plant-based sources. But I have used the lower protein guidelines the past year, and it's fact. The science backs it up, and so does the anecdotal evidence.
You need about half the protein that you think you do. And you'll still build muscle just fine.
The author's mistake, IMO, is his flippant disregard for science, and not linking to studies to back up his claims. The article is lame. His point is not. But I understand people wanting to shoot the message because the messenger is a dork and phrased the message poorly.0 -
Or both. I'm veg for my own personal reasons, but they have nothing to do with health. I have to prioritize protein above everything else and build my meals around making sure I hit my protein macro, and I still feel like I could be making more progress if I ate meat. I'm very aware that I'm choosing to sacrifice some performance and a lot of dietary flexibility.
and chances are they are either supplementing quite a bit (which a lot of us do simply to meet our protein needs, and we are eating a standard omnivore diet) OR they are not making the kind of progress that they should because they are not consuming enough protein.Then you have not seen the growing number of strength athletes that are vegan...0 -
Maybe it's because I have a background in trying to apply the scientific method to problems and finding a systematic answer instead of relying on anecdote but I thought it was a rather disappointing article. It really lacked any meat and potatoes (pun intended).
The summary is basically, meat as a source of protein is engrained as a result of marketing by all these evil corporations. I won't site any research to back this up. I'll give some anecdotal evidence that it works (i.e. I am convinced it works for me). Here are a handful of other successful athletes who practice a vegan diet as well.
An obese guy could have just as easily wrote an article that says, I have 50+ pounds to lose, I don't exercise and I eat in a manner that the evil medical establishment and diet industry would describe as crap. I do not have heart disease or other ailments and I personally believe I am alive today and thriving as a result of my lifestyle. Others argue that I am diluted because it is so engrained in their minds from the propaganda of these big businesses. Here are a handful of other perfectly healthy couch potatoes as further evidence that you should live like I do.0 -
So you went vegan/vegetarian solely lose weight? Smart.
Glad you realize it's all about calories now.
That wasn't my sole reason. I wanted to be healthy and yes part of that is losing weight. I will freely admit my first reasons weren't the animals so hardcore vegans will "trash" me based on that. Not to say that animals weren't part of it. I think it's cruel how cafo animals are treated and that was a part of it too. However I think that when my health started to go downhill and it was apparent my diet wasn't working, I wasn't going to be a dogmatic vegan that "sticks to their guns". I feel bad I eat dead animals, but beyond going vegan again (not doing it) there isn't anything I can do about it. Hopefully one day soon I'll have my house out in the country so I can raise my own animals and know they lived a good live before we slaughter them.0 -
The point I wanted to make is that you can lead a strong healthy life-style without meat and without the excessively high amounts of protein that the meat producers want you to believe you need. His article was anecdotal...it never professed to be scholarly. It was based upon his own personal experience... and if you clicked on the links you would see success stories by all types of people and athletes, not just ultra-runners. His approach was not inflammatory or aggressive. In fact, I liked the fact that he recognized this issue between meat-eaters and plant-eaters has taken on the same incendiary characteristics as politics and religion. Although, I find this topic to actually be worthwhile as opposed to the other two,
I was not interested in stirring up arguments, but to me, the ability and willingness to explore alternatives to what is passed off as "gospel truth" by the food industry can be a healthy, wealthy and wise exercise.
Edited for grammar and skipped words.
Did we read the same article?Despite the “butter is back” hysteria that recently graced the cover of TIME magazine, the best medical science establishes beyond reproach that both casein and whey contribute materially to degenerative disease. A family of proteins found in milk, casein has been linked to the onset of a variety of diseases, including cancer. And whey is nothing more than a highly processed, low-grade discard of cheese production — another diabolical stroke of genius courtesy of the dairy industry that created a zillion-dollar business out of stuff previously tossed in the garbage.
Claiming whey and casein contribute to degenerative disease isn't inflammatory? Casein is linked to the onset of cancer? Whey is the result of the greedy diabolical dairy industry? And not one citation to support these claims?
Scientific evidence aside, let's just use some common knowledge on this one. We've all heard the nursery rhyme "Little Miss Muffet" who was eating, that's right, curds and whey. That rhyme has been around for well over a century - consuming whey is nothing new. The form in which we consume it may have changed, as manner of consumption for some foods has changed over time, but it's not like no one ever heard of whey before people started putting it in tubs in health food stores. Claiming that it's some big corporate conspiracy is just tinfoil-hattery at its finest.0 -
Where do cows get their protein? From the plants they eat. It stands to reason the same can be true for humans. It is a matter of preference, imho. As I stated, I lived as a raw vegan for over a year. It wasn't the protein I missed so much, it was the cooked foods. The meat just slipped back in but I'm thinking seriously of going back to vegan, vegetarian or pescatarian. I felt better physically and emotionally when I did not eat meat.
My boss has several beautiful Arabian horses that predominantly eat grass and yet they're incredibly muscular and lean, and I'd generally consider them pretty shredded. However, if I go out and eat nothing but grass, I would simply die. Just because animals eat a certain way doesn't mean that you can eat that way and expect the same results, and if that's your reason for going vegan, you really should rethink your plan.0 -
There have been study after study that have found that the protein requirements for athletes are far lower than what broscience tells you.
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7550257
And yet, we keep hearing that we need to stuff ourselves with protein, that we need at least 1g per lb. of lean body mass, etc. And it's just not true.
This is just straight science, but people hate science.
I eat meat. Only because I (a) like it and (b) it's easier than trying to get my protein requirements from all plant-based sources. But I have used the lower protein guidelines the past year, and it's fact. The science backs it up, and so does the anecdotal evidence.
You need about half the protein that you think you do. And you'll still build muscle just fine.
The author's mistake, IMO, is his flippant disregard for science, and not linking to studies to back up his claims. The article is lame. His point is not. But I understand people wanting to shoot the message because the messenger is a dork and phrased the message poorly.
I do agree that many people overconsume protein, but you should re-read that article you're citing. They're talking about g/lb of body mass; you're talking about g/lb of LBM. Those are different units. 0.82g/lb of body weight probably works out to 1g/lb of LBM, if not more, so they aren't really dispelling the statement you're suggesting they are. Alan Aragon's recommendation of ~1g / lb of your goal weight is inline with this advice as well. For anyone educated on the subject, they don't need half of what they think they need for optimal results; they need what they think they need.0 -
Nothing wrong with a vegetarian diet, but there are several unsubstantiated claims in this article. I can't find ANY reputable articles linking casein to cancer.
There's some stuff out there linking casein to cancer that I'm sure you could find. The thing about casein is that it indiscriminately supports growth, whether that be normal cells or cancerous cells. I don't think you can find anything that says casein causes cancer, it just supports the growth if it already exists.
So really all you need is a few studies that said the cancer grew more in the casein group (no duh) and bam, you can stamp it with a bad name.0 -
This content has been removed.
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If you want the scientific studies, read Eat to Live.0
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Where do cows get their protein? From the plants they eat. It stands to reason the same can be true for humans. It is a matter of preference, imho. As I stated, I lived as a raw vegan for over a year. It wasn't the protein I missed so much, it was the cooked foods. The meat just slipped back in but I'm thinking seriously of going back to vegan, vegetarian or pescatarian. I felt better physically and emotionally when I did not eat meat.
cows are ruminants...people are, well..not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruminant0 -
The last vegan-evangelist thread I recall seemed to involve people proclaiming about how we aren't baby cows, and yet now I'm supposed to not worry about protein because cows don't? So confusing.
Also, my cat is on a high protein, low carb diet. So when I start eating like a cow, should he? I'm assuming no.0 -
Here's some food for thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFUKltIPuGU
The title of the video is "40 Year Vegan Dies of a Heart Attack! Why? The Omega-3 and B12 Myth with Dr. Michael Greger "
The lecturer goes over the reasons for vegans' nutritional deficits, and how to correct them, while remaining Vegan..0 -
1kg of chicken per day crew checking in
Who are these vegan strength athletes you speak of? The only guy I've heard of is Frank medrano and I wouldn't call bar calisthenics an actual strength sport (compared to say powerlifting/strongman/oly lifting)0 -
I'm eating some fatty fajita beef right now. Delicious.
I tried that vegan vegitarian thing. Made me weak as hell and lost mass. I was suckered by that skinny ***** book... so ashamed. But saw it as an experiment. That book is a load of malarky. I gave it to goodwill.
I eat what I need. I needs my meat.0 -
NEVER trust an article without research stating something like this...
With respect to athletes, to my knowledge no scientific study has ever shown that consumption of protein beyond the RDA-advised minimum (10 percent of daily calories) stimulates additional muscle growth or expedites physiological repair induced by exercise stress.
when you can find a meta analysis of many studies which directly refute the above claim such as...
http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-53.pdf
which clearly shows an advantage to additional protein when training...0 -
Where do cows get their protein? From the plants they eat. It stands to reason the same can be true for humans. It is a matter of preference, imho. As I stated, I lived as a raw vegan for over a year. It wasn't the protein I missed so much, it was the cooked foods. The meat just slipped back in but I'm thinking seriously of going back to vegan, vegetarian or pescatarian. I felt better physically and emotionally when I did not eat meat.
My boss has several beautiful Arabian horses that predominantly eat grass and yet they're incredibly muscular and lean, and I'd generally consider them pretty shredded. However, if I go out and eat nothing but grass, I would simply die. Just because animals eat a certain way doesn't mean that you can eat that way and expect the same results, and if that's your reason for going vegan, you really should rethink your plan.
ROFL umm no, that isn't my reason for thinking of returning to the vegan lifestyle. Like I said, I felt better when I did not eat meat. And yes, you CAN get all the protein you need from a plant based diet. I didn't say I was going to go out and eat grass lol. I said that it stands to reason that if animals can get their protein from a plant based diet then so could humans.
There are so many people on these forums who are simply looking to nit pick. It is so sad to me that someone can't post an article without opening a whole can of stinky worms. Can't we all just get along??? lol0 -
Where do cows get their protein? From the plants they eat. It stands to reason the same can be true for humans. It is a matter of preference, imho. As I stated, I lived as a raw vegan for over a year. It wasn't the protein I missed so much, it was the cooked foods. The meat just slipped back in but I'm thinking seriously of going back to vegan, vegetarian or pescatarian. I felt better physically and emotionally when I did not eat meat.
My boss has several beautiful Arabian horses that predominantly eat grass and yet they're incredibly muscular and lean, and I'd generally consider them pretty shredded. However, if I go out and eat nothing but grass, I would simply die. Just because animals eat a certain way doesn't mean that you can eat that way and expect the same results, and if that's your reason for going vegan, you really should rethink your plan.
ROFL umm no, that isn't my reason for thinking of returning to the vegan lifestyle. Like I said, I felt better when I did not eat meat. And yes, you CAN get all the protein you need from a plant based diet. I didn't say I was going to go out and eat grass lol. I said that it stands to reason that if animals can get their protein from a plant based diet then so could humans.
There are so many people on these forums who are simply looking to nit pick. It is so sad to me that someone can't post an article without opening a whole can of stinky worms. Can't we all just get along??? lol
Get along with people who lack basic reasoning skills? I think not.0 -
Seriously? An old, incredibly biased and poorly reasoned "docudrama" and that's supposed to be "food for thought?" Really? The forums never fail.0
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