Ideas about Diet and Exercise

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24

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  • BringbackGrok
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    Most in my circle are in fact one or the other. That's my point of reference for this post. I understand that's not a representation of the general public. My circle is not representative of the general public b/c too many doctors are in it. Not that I'm proud of that.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    What is your basis for recommending the complete avoidance of soy, corn, and wheat?
    What is your basis for recommending the avoidance of cardio?

    Do you advise this to patients as part of your profession and if you don't mind me asking what kind of doctor are you?
  • firebloom
    firebloom Posts: 109 Member
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    Neither. I would be smack bang in the middle. I agree with calories in, calories out, however I try to make sure that all or most of my calories come from unprocessed healthy foods and I don't really limit things like cholesterol and healthy fats. I avoid refined sugar most of the time and don't touch artificial sweeteners at all. To each their own. For the record, I gained most of my weight while eating an organic, unprocessed diet. While I stand by the health benefits of eating good food, my weight changed significantly once I applied both tactics simultaneously.
  • BringbackGrok
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    To answer most recent question, advising patients on lifestyle has nothing to do with my professional responsibilities. I specialize in diagnostics.

    I just happened to also get interested in my own health recently so I started looking things up. A medical background helps yes, but I tell you, all of the stuff I learned about diet and exercise is not taught in med school. As a matter of fact, our medical teaching (calories in, calories out, avoid saturated fats, eat lots of whole grains etc... basically A) is contradictory.

    It is also extremely out of date, embarrassingly. We learned all of this in the 1960s-1970s and started advising patients accordingly. Since then, virtually ALL chronic diseases have exploded - and this is NOT because we are able to diagnose things better. We haven't changed our advice since then. Those things we learned back then were based on complete garbage evidence that would be laughed at today. Yet, ironically, the medical profession now demands solid evidence to return to the ways before industrialization of our food supply. In other words, yes please screw us up without any need for evidence, but you better have solid evidence to fix us. What? You mean just using common sense and doing what we did before we screwed up isn't enough? Apparently not. And to wait for "solid good evidence", we will need 50 years of randomized controlled trials. I don't feel like waiting that long. I'm sure soon we will need evidence for the use of bike helmets and seatbelts.

    To be clear... I am not bashing medicine entirely. People do live longer nowadays, but the quality of life while living is not better. It may be worse. Yes, we are great at unclogging the artery, but we are now just as good at getting that artery clogged in the first place.

    I agree with one of Pollan's concepts which is to eat whole foods. That's a great start and a great way to keep garbage out of your systems.

    However, I think a step up from Pollan's stuff is to also pay attention to what causes inflammation in the body, as inflammation is the common starting point for many chronic diseases (heart disease, autoimmune disease, and even cancer). Yes there is genetic predisposition, but environment really dictates whether these genes are expressed.

    You asked why I recommend staying away from wheat, corn, soy and I should have also said SUGAR, is because they are now products of agribusiness and are virtually ubiquitous in our foods in large quantities. We told people to stay away from fats, and now they are replacing fats with all of this industrialized garbage. This is the grand central station of inflammation. Enter, chronic disease.

    Calories in calories out is too deceiving. It doesn't discriminate on what foods are taken in, which is the whole point! I did a calorie count when I was 205 lb (about 2500 cal per day with lots exercise) and now when I am 160lb with a lot of muscle (close to 3800 calories per day with much less exercise). Lipid profile also improved tremendously. It's not how much you eat, it's entirely what you eat. Calories from a 100% grass fed steak or a stalk of broccoli do not equate to the same calories in sugar or wheat etc. The metabolic effects, inflammatory effects, glycemic effects of foods are what change your body and that's what your body sees. And these factors are what makes your body decide whether to use energy or store it. This can be overlooked if one just looks at the energy count in foods. It distracts us from what is actually harming us. And if you eat foods that are antiinflammatory, it is actually a struggle to put on weight no matter how much you eat!

    As for Cardio, it's inflammatory by nature because it's usually a lengthy process. Plus it really isn't physiologic. We didn't really do much of that while we were evolving... so why would it be good for us now? We exerted ourselves in bursts of energy or we moved around slowly..... if we wasted our energy doing prolonged cardio we would be easy prey! I'm not super anti-cardio and on this forum I'll be crucified for this paragraph of course, but my cardiologist colleagues point me to evidence that marathoners and triatheles do have an increased risk of early cardiac death, but then they prescribe intense cardio to patients! I just feel that there should be some re-thinking around this, and there certainly has been. (Primal Blueprint, and especially Body by Science are great examples of books, the last of which is heavily evidence based)
  • BringbackGrok
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    And it's not really the question of who is right/who is wrong that bothers me, it's that our profession as a whole ISN'T EVEN TRYING to budge from outdated thinking that is clearly counterproductive to health. And this results in crucial information not reaching the public.
  • meridianova
    meridianova Posts: 438 Member
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    i think i understand what you were attempting to do with the A vs. B setup. it's not a question of right vs. wrong, but "out of these two camps of thinking, which one do you agree with more."

    i fall into camp B. i've gotten into more than one discussion *coughargumentcough* with people here regarding the validity of "calories in < calories out = weight loss." i don't think it's as much a question of math, but the source of the energy... meaning eating foods that allow my body to easily access the existing fat stores rather than relying on blood glucose for energy.

    however, i think exercise should be tailored to what your personal physical goals are. if cardio is your thing, go for it. if you want to bulk up and get cut, go for it. if you want to consistently ONLY work on one set of muscles for whatever reason, again... go for it. its your body.
  • jrline
    jrline Posts: 2,353 Member
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    Tracking Calories in versus Calories out eat real food drink plenty of water. Don't try to eliminate any food you enjoy sets you up for failure.

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  • BringbackGrok
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    Yes, focusing on calories in-calories out would be like bombing Australia when Finland is the one attacking you. (Selection of countries was geographically random for that example :) For the record I have friends from both and I'd love to travel to both.

    Although this could result in temporary weight loss for some, it's not a way to focus on the origin of most health problems, including the ones that you may not be feeling the effects from YET.

    The real question is - is the food you are eating working FOR you or AGAINST you? Both with respect to weight goals AND health.

    Yeah I agree with respect to fitness goals, that's a tough one. But evidence is mounting on being able to increase cardiovascular endurance performance without having to go through the inflammation of chronic cardio training. Our bodies really aren't as simple and linear as we once thought.
  • BringbackGrok
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    and Yes Meridianova, that's what I was trying to get at with the A/B setup.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    You're making this into a false dichotomy. One can track calorie and macro nutrient intake while still focusing on eating a nutrient dense diet. It is not an either or.

    For an obese person, do you think the inclusion of a moderate amount of cardiovascular training will provide a net benefit Or a net detriment to someone who was previously sitting on the couch?
  • juggernaut1974
    juggernaut1974 Posts: 6,212 Member
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    Yes, focusing on calories in-calories out would be like bombing Australia when Finland is the one attacking you. (Selection of countries was geographically random for that example :) For the record I have friends from both and I'd love to travel to both.

    Although this could result in temporary weight loss for some, it's not a way to focus on the origin of most health problems, including the ones that you may not be feeling the effects from YET.

    I would submit that the large amount of people here who have found success using this model would be evidence to the contrary.
  • juggernaut1974
    juggernaut1974 Posts: 6,212 Member
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    You're making this into a false dichotomy. One can track calorie and macro nutrient intake while still focusing on eating a nutrient dense diet. It is not an either or.

    ^^

    Exactly the point I tried to make a couple dozen posts ago.

    Not to mention that calorie counting doesn't necessitate a "cardio-only" approach to fitness.

    I think if you polled most of the successful people here with an option "C" that included 1)Counting calories accurately; 2) focus on macro (and to a lesser extent micro) nutrients and 3) Work out (ie lift heavy) regularly with a sprinkling of cardio thrown in as well, you'd get an overwhelming response to that option.
  • BringbackGrok
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    I really didn't mean to make it into a dichotomy and I do get your point. Making two A/B camps promoted that idea and that was probably not the best way to go about it in hindsight. Actually, I don't deny that calories in calories out works for many people when it comes to weight loss. And I certainly don't imply that those that focus on calories don't focus on whole foods. But it still detracts focus from what is actually going on.

    Before I make a few more points, I do want to acknowledge that some people here have had astounding weight loss results and that's great. But that actually isn't what I was trying to talk about....

    1. Calories in calories out doesn't work for everybody, for weight loss. Particularly those with slow metabolisms. Being overweight before the 20th century was a rarity and nobody ever counted calories despite eating calorie dense foods.... they didn't even know what calories were. Basically it's a solution for WEIGHT LOSS that some people luckily respond to given the situation of a currently "polluted" universal food supply. Once the food supply pollutants are removed from the diet calories really don't even factor in.

    2. I'm actually NOT TALKING ABOUT WEIGHT LOSS!!!!!!!!!!! Even if you are one of the "lucky" ones to respond to calories in calories out and lose a ton of weight, but if you are eating inflammatory foods, there is skyrocketing evidence that you are still subject to the inflammatory effect of those foods!!!!

    This is about health. Not (just) weight. One of the deceiving things about weight loss is that we think our health is cleaned up automatically as a result of weight loss.

    Example, you lose a ton of weight counting calories. But your diet still includes a lot of wheat, corn soy, sugar, cooking with oils that oxidize with heat etc. That still nicely sets up the stage for all the things we treat: coronary artery disease, autoimmune disease and very likely cancer that is more than likely increased above the risk you were born with. Regardless of the fact that you lost weight. Yes the weight loss helps, but if the inflammatory foods are still consumed, for many people, all that effort towards weight loss may be like pissing in the wind when it comes to health conditions. All these conditions are seen in overweight people, normal weight people and skinny people.

    Actually, I'm starting to think that those that do not respond to calorie counting may be the lucky ones in that the more aggressive primal dietary methods may be what is needed for weight loss... and they also lose the environmental inflammatory input by default.
  • willdob3
    willdob3 Posts: 640 Member
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    NEITHER.
  • colors_fade
    colors_fade Posts: 464 Member
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    C - None of the above

    ETA: Not that I don't agree with parts of both options - but taken as a whole neither option is particularly attractive.

    Luckily life isn't governed by false dichotomies.

    Shazam.

    Same here: Option C. I eat what I enjoy. Eat at a slight deficit, exercise more often, create a caloric deficit. I Strength train to maintain muscle mass.

    It's not rocket science.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,013 Member
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    I would have to respectfully disagree. Calories in / calories out is bottom line the way to lose weight.

    Food and exercise choices will affect how your body burns calories, where it deposits fat, how you feel, what you crave. But all those affect weight loss by either affecting calories in or affecting calories out.

    Once you can determine how many calories your body burns a day, regardless of WHY it burns that amount (hormones, inflammation, individual genetic metabolism, activity level, height, weight, etc.), then you know how many calories you need to eat to maintain, and to lose.

    MFP is a website for tracking food and exercise so you can affect your weight. Some are here to lose, some to maintain, and some to gain, but we are here to track calories or macros in order to change or maintain our bodies. The main point of this website is calories in/calories out.

    Edited because I can't spell when I'm hungry and it's lunch time!
  • BringbackGrok
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    Thanks for the replies and for keeping things civil despite disagreements! I've heard not many forums are like that. Especially when it comes to lifestyle, things usually get heated. You guys are great in keeping it classy.

    I do realize that this is a calories in calories out forum.... with respect to potential health impact, that's why I posted here:)

    I wouldn't get much satisfaction preaching to the converted on a paleo or primal website.

    Socially, preaching health things is a no-no and you get stomped on before you can open your mouth. Even as a physician. So I wanted some avenue to pass this stuff on.... Even if one person stops and questions conventional wisdom from reading this, I'd be happy... even at the cost of most thinking I'm a wingnut:)
  • lizarddev
    lizarddev Posts: 100 Member
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    I really didn't mean to make it into a dichotomy and I do get your point. Making two A/B camps promoted that idea and that was probably not the best way to go about it in hindsight. Actually, I don't deny that calories in calories out works for many people when it comes to weight loss. And I certainly don't imply that those that focus on calories don't focus on whole foods. But it still detracts focus from what is actually going on.

    Before I make a few more points, I do want to acknowledge that some people here have had astounding weight loss results and that's great. But that actually isn't what I was trying to talk about....

    1. Calories in calories out doesn't work for everybody, for weight loss. Particularly those with slow metabolisms. Being overweight before the 20th century was a rarity and nobody ever counted calories despite eating calorie dense foods.... they didn't even know what calories were. Basically it's a solution for WEIGHT LOSS that some people luckily respond to given the situation of a currently "polluted" universal food supply. Once the food supply pollutants are removed from the diet calories really don't even factor in.

    2. I'm actually NOT TALKING ABOUT WEIGHT LOSS!!!!!!!!!!! Even if you are one of the "lucky" ones to respond to calories in calories out and lose a ton of weight, but if you are eating inflammatory foods, there is skyrocketing evidence that you are still subject to the inflammatory effect of those foods!!!!

    This is about health. Not (just) weight. One of the deceiving things about weight loss is that we think our health is cleaned up automatically as a result of weight loss.

    Example, you lose a ton of weight counting calories. But your diet still includes a lot of wheat, corn soy, sugar, cooking with oils that oxidize with heat etc. That still nicely sets up the stage for all the things we treat: coronary artery disease, autoimmune disease and very likely cancer that is more than likely increased above the risk you were born with. Regardless of the fact that you lost weight. Yes the weight loss helps, but if the inflammatory foods are still consumed, for many people, all that effort towards weight loss may be like pissing in the wind when it comes to health conditions. All these conditions are seen in overweight people, normal weight people and skinny people.

    Actually, I'm starting to think that those that do not respond to calorie counting may be the lucky ones in that the more aggressive primal dietary methods may be what is needed for weight loss... and they also lose the environmental inflammatory input by default.

    I can understand the analogy behind the questions (Simple). As a Doctor in IT security i would of thought of another direction to determine the mindset of losing weight based on dietary means from people. Everyone has a different picture or process of diets and it needs to be a lifestyle. Ask questions that work for them to lose weight. Find their methods and see if any match up to support either the H1 and H0 in the study. I know this is not a dissertation or anything but it does require the same approach.
    My answer will be A and B with a twist that reacts to my body and the chemical balance that I am composed of. Everything we do in weight loss is science. Yes this meaning people need to not look at one over the other but expanding their knowledge and combining theories and practices together to work a better health plan for them. The body is complicated and there is a combination that will unlock the weight loss. People need to make sure that it is healthy and right to get everything in line.
  • BringbackGrok
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    Thanks for the suggestion lizarddev!
  • lizarddev
    lizarddev Posts: 100 Member
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    No problem.