Flu Vaccine
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FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »
I think going to HR _before_ there's a problem this year is in order.Blacklance36 wrote:There are people in my office that won't get one because they don't believe it in. One of them gets sick every year and then comes in to work and hacks and coughs for days making others around her ill. The rest of us detest her for it.
If several of you meet with your manager &/or an HR person, and ask that the company establish a policy that anyone who's coughing, or with a fever (of a certain amount... check with a doctor), stay home until they're not sick, and get a doctor's written permission to return to work, that person _might_ change her behaviour.
But it's not getting ugly.this was the first topic i made on MFP. someone warned me it would get ugly. so I pm'd a mod to ask for it to be deleted.
This is nothing.
There are people saying they've been sensible & responsible, and there are people who don't believe in science.
Some in the first group are attempting to show the second group why their actions are wrong, dangerous, and anti-social.
I don't recall there being a direct correlation between responsibility and getting the flu shot.
The only time I will have formaldehyde anywhere in close proximity to my body (let alone IN my body) is when I am using it to preserve cadavers.
So you don't eat fruits and vegetables?
http://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/whatsnew/whatsnew_fa/files/formaldehyde.pdf
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hollydubs85 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »
I think going to HR _before_ there's a problem this year is in order.Blacklance36 wrote:There are people in my office that won't get one because they don't believe it in. One of them gets sick every year and then comes in to work and hacks and coughs for days making others around her ill. The rest of us detest her for it.
If several of you meet with your manager &/or an HR person, and ask that the company establish a policy that anyone who's coughing, or with a fever (of a certain amount... check with a doctor), stay home until they're not sick, and get a doctor's written permission to return to work, that person _might_ change her behaviour.
But it's not getting ugly.this was the first topic i made on MFP. someone warned me it would get ugly. so I pm'd a mod to ask for it to be deleted.
This is nothing.
There are people saying they've been sensible & responsible, and there are people who don't believe in science.
Some in the first group are attempting to show the second group why their actions are wrong, dangerous, and anti-social.
I don't recall there being a direct correlation between responsibility and getting the flu shot.
The only time I will have formaldehyde anywhere in close proximity to my body (let alone IN my body) is when I am using it to preserve cadavers.
So you don't eat fruits and vegetables?
http://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/whatsnew/whatsnew_fa/files/formaldehyde.pdf
The formaldehyde found in fruits and veggies is naturally occurring.0 -
No. Have never had one and probably never will.
Side note: I've never had the flu.
Since there is scientific reasoning on both sides of the immunization debate please save your arguments for all of your friends who agree with you and you can sit around and talk about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is.0 -
[/quote]
I'm aware that the flu can be deadly. And I'm aware of the flu vaccines helping decrease mortality. I haven't seen any scientific study that shows either the effects of or lack of effect (good OR bad) for folks who have taken the flu vaccine each year over the course of 20 or 30 years. If you can point me to one, I'd gladly take a look and maybe change my stance. I HAVE read a study done on the flu vaccine in 1979 that showed a slight increase in Guillian Barre Syndrome for folks vaccinated.... which I'm sure they've either disclaimed or ironed out (right?!).
I'm in no way, shape or form a vaccine 'alarmist', but I'm also not willing to jump on the bandwagon over an educated guess (which is what the current flu vaccine and the strain selection process amounts to) when I don't know what it might (or might not) do to me in my old age.
I'm one of those people that wants to be taken off of life support if I can't care for myself. If it's my time to go, then so be it. Flu shot be damned.
[/quote]
Any virus can trigger GBS0 -
Posted above:digginDeep wrote: »But when was the last time we lost a significant percentage of the population to the flu?
http://www.flu.gov/pandemic/history/1918/the_pandemic/legacypendemic/
"[pandemic of 1918] An estimated 675,000 Americans were among the dead.
All of these deaths caused a severe disruption in the economy. Claims against life insurance policies skyrocketed, with one insurance company reporting a 745 percent rise in the number of claims made. Small businesses, many of which had been unable to operate during the pandemic, went bankrupt."
"Influenza vaccine was first introduced as a licensed product in the United States in 1944. Because of the rapid rate of mutation of the influenza virus, the effectiveness of a given vaccine usually lasts for only a year or two...
The pandemic which occurred in 1918-1919 was not the only influenza pandemic of the twentieth century. Influenza returned in a pandemic form in 1957-1958 and, again, in 1968-1969.
These two later pandemics were much less severe than the 1918-1919 pandemic. Estimated deaths within the United States for these two later pandemics were 70,000 excess deaths (1957-1958) and 33,000 excess deaths (1968-1967)."
So... pandemic before the flu vaccine existed, 675K dead.
Pandemics after the flu vaccine was created, 70K (90% less) & 33K (95% less) dead.
Mortality rate has gone down too.
2011 - 312 million population, 54K deaths, 0.02% died
1968 - 200.7 million, 33K, 0.02%
1957 - 172 million, 70K, 0.04%
1918 - 103 million, 675K dead 0.66%
http://www.multpl.com/united-states-population/table
One could also take from this that in addition to vaccines we as a whole have learned a lot about preventative steps with diseases. It's hard to really use 1918 as a standard. We have advanced in so many ways as a society not just from vaccination.
I'd love to see a study of illness before and after the introduction of antibacterial hand soap.
I'm going to botch this up but I read an article one time about the mortality rate of babies in a hospital in Germany (i think) that was so high that women opted to have babies at home or in the streets to avoid it. The doctors finally figured out that if they washed their hands after leaving the morgue the mortality rate of new borns when down some crazy number. That's right, they just figured out they needed to wash their hands.
Feel free to google a million articles on why vaccines are soooooo great, but you're overlooking the other side of the debate that will tell you scientifically why they aren't soooo great.
You can argue that it's "good for society" if everyone gets vaccinated. Well i can argue it's good for society of men/women who have a proclivity to sex with children should be able to legally have a doctor euthanize them but then you would be screaming "REHABILITATION" is the way to go until it's your kid.
Go get a vaccine or don't. If a strain of flu rips through the world and kills of 50% of us then it's meant to me. I mean, we all have to die of something right?
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This is going so well. I'm glad you all were available to correct me.0
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Yup, already got it. I get one every year.0
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I haven't gotten a flu shot in years, but have decided to this year. I started a new job and have been getting sick a lot. I work as a public defender and am in the court room a lot. I encounter people who are sick a lot. I already got strep throat this month, so I don't want to risk the flu.0
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I work in healthcare so I have to get mine every year. I would probably get it anyways because my asthma puts me at greater risk for getting very ill from respiratory viruses.0
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obviouslydigginDeep wrote: »MyChocolateDiet wrote: »This is going so well. I'm glad you all were available to correct me.
I think this is a fairly cogent discussion about vaccination, pandemics, autism, and the Illuminati, don't you?
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FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »hollydubs85 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »
I think going to HR _before_ there's a problem this year is in order.Blacklance36 wrote:There are people in my office that won't get one because they don't believe it in. One of them gets sick every year and then comes in to work and hacks and coughs for days making others around her ill. The rest of us detest her for it.
If several of you meet with your manager &/or an HR person, and ask that the company establish a policy that anyone who's coughing, or with a fever (of a certain amount... check with a doctor), stay home until they're not sick, and get a doctor's written permission to return to work, that person _might_ change her behaviour.
But it's not getting ugly.this was the first topic i made on MFP. someone warned me it would get ugly. so I pm'd a mod to ask for it to be deleted.
This is nothing.
There are people saying they've been sensible & responsible, and there are people who don't believe in science.
Some in the first group are attempting to show the second group why their actions are wrong, dangerous, and anti-social.
I don't recall there being a direct correlation between responsibility and getting the flu shot.
The only time I will have formaldehyde anywhere in close proximity to my body (let alone IN my body) is when I am using it to preserve cadavers.
So you don't eat fruits and vegetables?
http://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/whatsnew/whatsnew_fa/files/formaldehyde.pdf
The formaldehyde found in fruits and veggies is naturally occurring.
Please explain the difference between naturally occuring formaldehyde and the formaldehyde in vaccinations. Also, by what mechanism does the body differentiate between the two and how does it treat each one differently?0 -
headofphat wrote: »No. Have never had one and probably never will.
Side note: I've never had the flu.
Since there is scientific reasoning on both sides of the immunization debate please save your arguments for all of your friends who agree with you and you can sit around and talk about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is.
Please point me to the scientific reasoning on the con side of the immunization debate.0 -
We all got it. I have babies at home and not doing something so simple to keep them safe from it would be stupid. My parents and anyone else intending on being around them gets it as well.0
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yes, i did. work requires either that, or wearing an n95 respirator on the ambulance.
What's ironic here is flu presents with the same symptoms as ebola... dallas isn't that far. lol0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »headofphat wrote: »No. Have never had one and probably never will.
Side note: I've never had the flu.
Since there is scientific reasoning on both sides of the immunization debate please save your arguments for all of your friends who agree with you and you can sit around and talk about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is.
Please point me to the scientific reasoning on the con side of the immunization debate.
Feel free to research it yourself. I'm sure you skip over the articles when you read the ones that support your argument.
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headofphat wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »headofphat wrote: »No. Have never had one and probably never will.
Side note: I've never had the flu.
Since there is scientific reasoning on both sides of the immunization debate please save your arguments for all of your friends who agree with you and you can sit around and talk about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is.
Please point me to the scientific reasoning on the con side of the immunization debate.
Feel free to research it yourself. I'm sure you skip over the articles when you read the ones that support your argument.
I read. I don't do research. Vaccine research is for people who have a proper understanding of immunology and biochemistry. I don't have that expertise, so I read the work of those that do. That said, I've yet to come across any scientific study that actually supports the con side of this "debate." I promise that I will, in fact, read any scientific sources you have to support your statement. Please, indulge me. You've made the claim, which means it is your burden of proof.0 -
digginDeep wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »headofphat wrote: »No. Have never had one and probably never will.
Side note: I've never had the flu.
Since there is scientific reasoning on both sides of the immunization debate please save your arguments for all of your friends who agree with you and you can sit around and talk about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is.
Please point me to the scientific reasoning on the con side of the immunization debate.
I must admit. Your sources are compelling!0 -
I never do.0
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http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/six-reasons-to-say-no-to-vaccination/
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/11/27/a-shot-never-worth-taking-the-flu-vaccine-by-kelly-brogan-md/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78
(I almost never agree with Bill Maher.)
Here are a couple for you. Now please remember I don't care if you get the vaccine or not. I just want you to read both sides of the debate and make an informed decision.
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tincanonastring wrote: »headofphat wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »headofphat wrote: »No. Have never had one and probably never will.
Side note: I've never had the flu.
Since there is scientific reasoning on both sides of the immunization debate please save your arguments for all of your friends who agree with you and you can sit around and talk about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is.
Please point me to the scientific reasoning on the con side of the immunization debate.
Feel free to research it yourself. I'm sure you skip over the articles when you read the ones that support your argument.
I read. I don't do research. Vaccine research is for people who have a proper understanding of immunology and biochemistry. I don't have that expertise, so I read the work of those that do. That said, I've yet to come across any scientific study that actually supports the con side of this "debate." I promise that I will, in fact, read any scientific sources you have to support your statement. Please, indulge me. You've made the claim, which means it is your burden of proof.
You don't read vaccine research but you read scientific studies? Seems the same.
Anyway good luck with your vaccinations.
I don't follow the logic of burden of proof because I could care less if you get vaccinated or not. (not to sound mean or anything) It's your choice what you do and I wish you the best in your decision. If I die from the flu because I didn't buy into vaccinations you can feel free to laugh at me, I won't care when I'm dead. If you die from the chemicals in vaccinations or because you get a different strain of flu that wasn't covered in your vaccination then I reserve the right to laugh at you.
Like I said you can do your own research or reading or whatever you want to call it.
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Got it. Just like last year and the year before and the year before that and ........ Still a non-issue.0
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digginDeep wrote: »headofphat wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »headofphat wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »headofphat wrote: »No. Have never had one and probably never will.
Side note: I've never had the flu.
Since there is scientific reasoning on both sides of the immunization debate please save your arguments for all of your friends who agree with you and you can sit around and talk about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is.
Please point me to the scientific reasoning on the con side of the immunization debate.
Feel free to research it yourself. I'm sure you skip over the articles when you read the ones that support your argument.
I read. I don't do research. Vaccine research is for people who have a proper understanding of immunology and biochemistry. I don't have that expertise, so I read the work of those that do. That said, I've yet to come across any scientific study that actually supports the con side of this "debate." I promise that I will, in fact, read any scientific sources you have to support your statement. Please, indulge me. You've made the claim, which means it is your burden of proof.
You don't read vaccine research but you read scientific studies? Seems the same.
Anyway good luck with your vaccinations.
I don't follow the logic of burden of proof because I could care less if you get vaccinated or not. (not to sound mean or anything) It's your choice what you do and I wish you the best in your decision. If I die from the flu because I didn't buy into vaccinations you can feel free to laugh at me, I won't care when I'm dead. If you die from the chemicals in vaccinations or because you get a different strain of flu that wasn't covered in your vaccination then I reserve the right to laugh at you.
Like I said you can do your own research or reading or whatever you want to call it.
Not getting vaccinated is tantamount to agreeing to be a petri dish for something can kill other people. No one cares, frankly, if you die. It's like drunk drivers- take yourself out, but please don't take us with you. ("You" being not you personally, of course, and not to sound mean. It's a matter of socio-moral imperatives in the Kantian sense...)
Yes. I agree, those are some interesting words.
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No, I'm serious those are some interesting words. I have no idea what Kantian sense means and I refuse to look it up.
Like you're never driven drunk?0 -
The logic works. However Jesus turned water into wine and I'm sure he would have had no problem with his apostles driving home after a rager.0
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headofphat wrote: »http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/six-reasons-to-say-no-to-vaccination/
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/11/27/a-shot-never-worth-taking-the-flu-vaccine-by-kelly-brogan-md/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78
(I almost never agree with Bill Maher.)
Here are a couple for you. Now please remember I don't care if you get the vaccine or not. I just want you to read both sides of the debate and make an informed decision.
So, I'm trying not to laugh at these links, but to put it nicely, these aren't the most unbiased of sources. Nor are they qualified much to comment about vaccine efficacy. Brogan is a "holistic pschiatrist" and an admitted anti-vaxxer, so I can't figure out why her articles are valid. Everything of hers I've read (including this piece) relies on fairly blatant logical fallacies (like constant appeals to nature). At one point in this piece she advises readers to ignore the evidence and just use common sense. Not really a scientific approach there.
I'm still trying to figure out who Sarah is and why she would put out an article like this without linking you to the disclaimer on her own site:
"The information on The Healthy Home Economist is provided for informational purposes only. It is in no way intended to substitute for the advice provided by your doctor or other health care professional. You should not rely upon or follow the programs or techniques or use any of the products and services made available by or through the use of this website for decision making without obtaining the advice of a physician or other health care professional. The nutritional and other information on this website are not intended to be and do not constitute health care or medical advice.
The views expressed on The Healthy Home Economist have not been reviewed or endorsed by the Weston A. Price Foundation or any other private or public entity. The Healthy Home Economist is an independent, privately run business separate from this nonprofit organization."
I can't watch the video at work, but I'm sure it's hysterical. Maher is a funny guy. Not sure I'd trust him with the life of my family, though. I can't find what medical school he attended.
Look, man. It's your decision, but you're clearly coming down on the irrational, anti-science side of this "debate." I used quotes there because, from the standpoint of the experts in this field, the people who are actually doing the research and compiling the data, the scientific consensus supporting all vaccines, including the one for the annual flu, is absolutely overwhelming. In order to overturn such a strong consensus, I'm going to need more than the opinion (note - there's no actual scientific research underlying vaccine opposition) of a psychiatrist, a comedian, and a mommy-blog.
ETA: fixed predictable spelling errors...0 -
I only read your first sentence. I'm not trying to convince you of anything just that there are other opinions and whether they are scientific or not I don't care. Again, get your vaccinces. I wish you the best. Hopefully you'll live to be 180 because that's rad. Good luck.0
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Science once told us the Earth was flat. It's always right. Always.
You should also definitely listen to all drug companies because how would they make money if you die?
I won't be getting a flu vaccine.0 -
Sorry, that was my way of saying that reading stuff on the internet doesn't count as research. In order to actually research vaccines, you need years and years (often a decade plus) of training in biology, immunology, bio-chemistry, laboratory procedures, etc. What we're doing is reading.
You don't follow the logic of burden of proof? Then why are you participating in a conversation? That's the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying LALALALALALALA when someone asks you a follow-up question. If you can't support your stance, just say so.0 -
headofphat wrote: »Science once told us the Earth was flat. It's always right. Always.
You should also definitely listen to all drug companies because how would they make money if you die?
I won't be getting a flu vaccine.
No, science never said the Earth was flat. Ancient Greeks calculated the curvature of the earth and its circumference a thousand years before Columbus.0
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