Thoughts on veganism?
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Wow, lots of talk about snakes...I'm lost.
Back to the original question.
If you want to be vegan, for whatever reasons you choose, then go right ahead, your diet does not affect me in my life.
The problem lies in the "militant vegan" attitude that is so rampant these days. That vegan is the ONLY way to be, and anyone NOT vegan is a horrible wretched person.
I enjoy meat. I eat steak, I eat chicken, I eat fish.
I try to buy free-range chicken and organic veggies when I can, but lets be honest, that stuff aint cheap, and last time I checked, I don't have a money tree in my back yard.
I also shoot and eat my own wild animals like deer, turkey, dove, duck, quail.
Hunting, (it doesnt get any more free range than hunting, killing, and preparing your own meat), and having my own garden (I control the conditions), enables me to eat a healthful and balanced diet without going broke.
I'm also a firm believer in conservation. In order for the herd to thrive, there has to be sufficient food to support it. By hunting and killing mature animals and keeping the overall population numbers in check, it allows the herd to maintain a steady level of existence.
We could be friends
I agree with everything said in her post.
Not directed at @clewpage but I wanted everyone to know, chickens are OMNIVORES. I know this because when I was a kid my mom would throw snakes from the garden into the chicken coop and the chickens would eat that snake up like it was dessert. Also, if you have actually raised chickens, you would know they will eat on each other in a heart beat. They pick at the weakest chicken till they are dead and then they will eat some more. So, not only are they omnivores, but they can also be cannibalistic.
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Neighbor has six chickens, they're like little dinosaur idiots.-1
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It's always an interesting argument to say the least...
As I mentioned on the honey thread the other day, the ethical implications of not exploiting animals for food is one thing, but what about all of the modern conveniences (health care, automobiles, etc.) that also exploited animals during their nascent years? Do you plan on giving those up, too?
And even factory farming of fruits, vegetables, and grains is not exploitation-free. The itinerant farm workers are some of the lowest paid workers in the US and many of them are here illegally. Unless you are growing everything yourself you are still benefiting at the exploitation of other sentient beings. (And don't forget, even if you are growing it yourself, you'd have nothing without those bees busily pollinating everything...)
Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious on how you compartmentalize this--this is where it always fell apart for me.0 -
Cognitive dissonance is awesome! Do it! - sarcasm. (Not healthier and not more "ethical" and it's easy to figure out why with just a bit of research and logical thought. But what other adults decide to do doesn't really affect me much so whatever.)0
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also as I have mentioned is the idea of the animals that have been crushed and shredded to death in combines and other harvesting equipment in the process of getting those ethicools plants to market.Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious on how you compartmentalize this--this is where it always fell apart for me.
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I have several hardcore ethical vegans in my family.... it seems quite strenuous to me. While I respect much of what they believe, I am not able to incorporate it fully into my life-style. Over the years, I have found that what works best for me is to eat primarily a plant-based diet and eliminate red meat for the most part (which admittedly is more of a taste-bud thing with me). But I can't give up eggs, butter, cheese... and while I try to get as much protein from plant sources as I can, it just gets to be too much sometimes. I mean, it's really hard to beat a can of tuna and a bunch of cottage cheese for a major protein hit...and not having eggs for breakfast would be particularly problematic...0
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I'm not a vegan or even a vegetarian, but I will say that I found a plethora of studies comparing different diets, and veganism consistently comes out on top with positive health outcomes when compared to things like Mediterranean, Paleo, low-fat, etc. If you go to Google Scholar, you'll find tons of studies.0
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I am just going to go outright and say this, but I don't have all that much respect for the "vegan belief system" whatsoever. If you are vegan, great. Don't tell me about it. I don't care. I don't want to know. I likely wont even notice if we happen to be eating together and you don't happen to say. I don't pay attention to what anyone else eats, or orders off a menu.
But as soon as that conversation comes up - I immediately lose respect for the person. Why? Because I have never had this conversation with anyone where it *didn't* turn into a holier-than-thou conversation.
Veganism is a religion. It is no different than someone getting their belief system out of an old book.0 -
It's not healthier. It's not elevated morality. It doesn't make any sense to me. I have no use for it. Plain and simple.0
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I tried Veganism and I found it too hard to give up eggs and the cheese. I switched back to vegetarian. I HATED the fake cheese. I didn't mind the fake meat though, some are quite tasty but full of sugar.
Now that I am on the Dr. Oz diet, I had to give up the cheese, AGAIN. At least, I still have the eggs. I get them from my farmer friend. It's a small operation, mostly different heritage chickens.0 -
Regardless of why a person becomes a vegan, the end result is the same. If anyone is interested in research, this site is a great place to start:
http://www.vegankit.com/
This site has tons of information including but not limited to recipes and cat videos:
http://onegreenplanet.org/
Peace, love, and happiness to all living things.0 -
I personally think that the non vegans are more hostile in this thread and people are needlessly getting on their high horses.
So it's ok for there to be threads asking opinions about all sorts of things but veganism is a no no? I put it out there that I don't eat meat etc because I am in the minority so I'm seeking out others who share the same thoughts.
I also think calling it a religion is ridiculous and can't stand the it's not healthy argument. There is something unhealthy in every diet it's just that it's harder to be a vegan, you have to be really dedicated.
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I try to respect other people's dietary choices, no matter their reason. Being vegan is very difficult in Western society as we are one of the biggest meat and animal product eaters. If you want to take that on and do something different, more power to you. Humans are great at adapting to wide variety of diets and there is no reason to think you can't survive without meat and dairy and eggs. Many people around the world do; even as a matter of culture and religious tradition that has been around a long time.
I admire people that take control of their lives, including choosing how they want to eat based on their principles. For that reason, I equally respect meat-eaters who maintain their own set of principles. Folks that go out and hunt and fish for their own food, I think, are more in touch with how they eat than those that go and eat a hamburger at Burger King because it's convenient and have no idea where that food came from or how it's made. You can't make good decisions by being ignorant of where your food comes from. Even if people come to opposite conclusions about food, as long as it's well informed and well thought out, it deserves respect.
I am disconcerted with the food industry exploiting veganism. Go to the "health food" section of the grocery store and you know what I'm talking about. That sort of advertising really perverts the concept of a conscious and principled diet.
I recently bought the Thug Kitchen cookbook which is all vegan recipes, even though I'm not vegan. Their argument for veganism is "Well *kitten*, aren't there enough people eating meat and *kitten*?" Can't really argue with that.0 -
thelazydandelion wrote: »I also think calling it a religion is ridiculous and can't stand the it's not healthy argument. There is something unhealthy in every diet it's just that it's harder to be a vegan, you have to be really dedicated.
How is it different from a religion? It has a set of rules that are defined by an arbitrary line in the sand as to what is considered "ethical". Every adherent seems to draw that line in a slightly different place based on whats convenient for the adherent. Saying it's harder to stick to than other "diets" is like saying your preferred religion is harder to stick to because it has more behavioral restrictions than that other religion.
In fact, I would say all diets are "religions" because they tend not to have any basis in reality, only in belief.
*by "diet" I mean the ones that say you cant eat X food for Y reason, not the "prevailing set of foods a particular culture eats"0 -
I don't want to put a label on how I eat. However, I will describe it as plant-based. I found that my weight, mood and mental clarity are better when I eat predominately raw-plant foods. There is no need to argue with each other. We are here to share our experiences and be supportive. I am enjoying fantastic meals because a gourmet raw food chef is staying with us. Whether vegan, vegetarian or other, tracking macro-nutrient content on MFP is helpful to make sure you are getting balanced nutrition.0
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*by "diet" I mean the ones that say you cant eat X food for Y reason, not the "prevailing set of foods a particular culture eats"
Why do you make that distinction?
"Western" diet is interesting in that we have such a heterogeneous mixture of cultural foods. I don't think you could say something like this without that fact... or the fact that now "religion" is separate from culture... definitely not the case in many other places and times in history.
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I don't want to put a label on how I eat. However, I will describe it as plant-based. I found that my weight, mood and mental clarity are better when I eat predominately raw-plant foods. There is no need to argue with each other. We are here to share our experiences and be supportive. I am enjoying fantastic meals because a gourmet raw food chef is staying with us. Whether vegan, vegetarian or other, tracking macro-nutrient content on MFP is helpful to make sure you are getting balanced nutrition.
Awesome attitude, thanks for this!
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I cannot stand behind any diet that requires you to find substitutes for everything you're craving. You want meat? Eat meat. Don't eat tofu patties. You want cheese? Eat it. Don't eat some overly processed soy cheese product. Unfermented soy is terrible for your body. I can't believe there are still people out there that buy that garbage. I guess it does give the pharmaceutical companies joy knowing people are poisoning themselves daily. More money for them in the future.0
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*by "diet" I mean the ones that say you cant eat X food for Y reason, not the "prevailing set of foods a particular culture eats"
Why do you make that distinction?
"Western" diet is interesting in that we have such a heterogeneous mixture of cultural foods. I don't think you could say something like this without that fact... or the fact that now "religion" is separate from culture... definitely not the case in many other places and times in history.
I really just wanted to group together all the "low carb", "atkins", "vegan", "south beach", "grapefruit only" or whatever the popular "lose weight fast" diet of the month is.
The prevailing set of foods someone might eat is not a restriction on things, rather it is a set of common foods the general culture consumes. So "The Western Diet" doesn't mean the same thing to me as "Low Carb Diet"
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I don't want to put a label on how I eat. However, I will describe it as plant-based. I found that my weight, mood and mental clarity are better when I eat predominately raw-plant foods. There is no need to argue with each other. We are here to share our experiences and be supportive. I am enjoying fantastic meals because a gourmet raw food chef is staying with us. Whether vegan, vegetarian or other, tracking macro-nutrient content on MFP is helpful to make sure you are getting balanced nutrition.
Awesome attitude, thanks for this!
Agreed. This attitude is not what I was ranting against above 0 -
*by "diet" I mean the ones that say you cant eat X food for Y reason, not the "prevailing set of foods a particular culture eats"
Why do you make that distinction?
"Western" diet is interesting in that we have such a heterogeneous mixture of cultural foods. I don't think you could say something like this without that fact... or the fact that now "religion" is separate from culture... definitely not the case in many other places and times in history.
I really just wanted to group together all the "low carb", "atkins", "vegan", "south beach", "grapefruit only" or whatever the popular "lose weight fast" diet of the month is.
The prevailing set of foods someone might eat is not a restriction on things, rather it is a set of common foods the general culture consumes. So "The Western Diet" doesn't mean the same thing to me as "Low Carb Diet"
I feel you. Though I wouldn't call it religion as much as religious-minded. People get that way about a lot of things (zealotry, I suppose would be a word I'd use). There is a driving need to institutionalize. For another example, and I hope this doesn't offend you but your profile pic reminds me of the "religion of bicyclists". How now you have wear a uniform and be a bicycle officiando going on bicycling pilgrimages to be accepted into the bicyclist community. I don't understand those mindsets, either. People seem to draw stability and direction in their lives from it.
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It's always an interesting argument to say the least...
As I mentioned on the honey thread the other day, the ethical implications of not exploiting animals for food is one thing, but what about all of the modern conveniences (health care, automobiles, etc.) that also exploited animals during their nascent years? Do you plan on giving those up, too?
And even factory farming of fruits, vegetables, and grains is not exploitation-free. The itinerant farm workers are some of the lowest paid workers in the US and many of them are here illegally. Unless you are growing everything yourself you are still benefiting at the exploitation of other sentient beings. (And don't forget, even if you are growing it yourself, you'd have nothing without those bees busily pollinating everything...)
Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious on how you compartmentalize this--this is where it always fell apart for me.
There's no compartmentalization. It's all part of living a more ethical life in whatever ways are possible. I think part of the problem is that you seem to be engaging in all-or-nothing thinking. It isn't a choice between being absolutely perfect in every way vs. not giving a crap and exploiting everyone everywhere. I see myself as doing what I can to address whatever areas I am able to address in order to not be a cause of pain or suffering the world. Unless I cease to exist, I can't help having an impact on the planet around me. Do I drive down the street and probably kill some gnats on my journey? Yes. But if I walked then I would kill some bugs on the ground. I can sit around fretting about that all day, but at some point you just have to accept this and do whatever is possible within reason. I can choose to brake for squirrels. And pedestrians. The gnats and moth are on their own.
As I identify new areas that I can address, I do so. Regarding agriculture practices... I grow some of my stuff, prefer to buy from local family farms, the rest from places I know less about and that have labor practices I haven't investigated. Things like chocolate or coffee I try to buy fair trade. I don't knowingly exploit workers but it is possible I am contributed to suffering somewhere. It's hard to really fix that, since I do have a right to exist and not suffer too.
Regarding the bees, there is a difference between having a mutually beneficial relationship where bees are pollinating and doing their thing and in the process it helps my veggies. That is a natural way things happen and isn't exploitation. Exploitation is when the bees do their work of building a hive... and then we come destroy it to take their honey. I'm not taking anything away from a bee who freely chooses to visit my peach tree.0 -
Docbanana2002 wrote: »I can choose to brake for squirrels. And pedestrians. The gnats and moth are on their own.
I like how pedestrians are second.
And now I really want a bumper sticker that says "I brake for gnats." See how quickly my car gets vandalized.0 -
Holy hectares of opiates...thelazydandelion wrote: »I also think calling it a religion is ridiculous and can't stand the it's not healthy argument. There is something unhealthy in every diet it's just that it's harder to be a vegan, you have to be really dedicated.
How is it different from a religion? It has a set of rules that are defined by an arbitrary line in the sand as to what is considered "ethical". Every adherent seems to draw that line in a slightly different place based on whats convenient for the adherent. Saying it's harder to stick to than other "diets" is like saying your preferred religion is harder to stick to because it has more behavioral restrictions than that other religion.
In fact, I would say all diets are "religions" because they tend not to have any basis in reality, only in belief.
*by "diet" I mean the ones that say you cant eat X food for Y reason, not the "prevailing set of foods a particular culture eats"
I made almost this exact argument to explain why atheism was a religion. LOL!
I like you.
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You know, making room for farmland to grow fruits and vegetables destroys the homes and kills a lot of small animals that were living there. At least the bees stay alive and get to still do their thing when we occasionally go get their honey.Docbanana2002 wrote: »Regarding the bees, there is a difference between having a mutually beneficial relationship where bees are pollinating and doing their thing and in the process it helps my veggies. That is a natural way things happen and isn't exploitation. Exploitation is when the bees do their work of building a hive... and then we come destroy it to take their honey. I'm not taking anything away from a bee who freely chooses to visit my peach tree.
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Docbanana2002 wrote: »Regarding the bees, there is a difference between having a mutually beneficial relationship where bees are pollinating and doing their thing and in the process it helps my veggies. That is a natural way things happen and isn't exploitation. Exploitation is when the bees do their work of building a hive... and then we come destroy it to take their honey. I'm not taking anything away from a bee who freely chooses to visit my peach tree.
What if I build said hive, and they choose to inhabit it. It's my hive, why can I not charge rent, and in return, keep them in a safe, warm, and protected home?0 -
I think everyone should be vegan for a short time every year.0
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I've been vegan for all of today so far. I'm getting the shakes.0
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Holy hectares of opiates...thelazydandelion wrote: »I also think calling it a religion is ridiculous and can't stand the it's not healthy argument. There is something unhealthy in every diet it's just that it's harder to be a vegan, you have to be really dedicated.
How is it different from a religion? It has a set of rules that are defined by an arbitrary line in the sand as to what is considered "ethical". Every adherent seems to draw that line in a slightly different place based on whats convenient for the adherent. Saying it's harder to stick to than other "diets" is like saying your preferred religion is harder to stick to because it has more behavioral restrictions than that other religion.
In fact, I would say all diets are "religions" because they tend not to have any basis in reality, only in belief.
*by "diet" I mean the ones that say you cant eat X food for Y reason, not the "prevailing set of foods a particular culture eats"
I made almost this exact argument to explain why atheism was a religion. LOL!
I like you.
I agree 100% that "atheism" is as much a religion as a theistic one is. You can see from my argument above why I think that way
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BlackTimber wrote: »I think everyone should be vegan for a short time every year.
I agree. I do it every day in fact, typically between meals.
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