Any raw milk drinkers out there? Which would you prefer...
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But what raw milk is, above all, a source for infection. There have been outbreaks with Campylobacter, Salmonella, E. coli associated with raw milk and other organisms can be found in raw milk, some not common in the US, including Brucella, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis (a cause of tuberculosis), Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia, Giardia, and norovirus. Some are found in cows milk, and some, such as Brucella, more common from goat’s milk. These outbreaks have lead to hospitalizations and a few deaths.
Warm liquid filled with protein, fat and sugars. A good growth media for a bacteria, if they can gain access to the milk. Impossible. Proponents of raw milk point to the clean cows and clean environments that produce raw milk, but you cannot deny both microbiology and gravity. The colons of cows are frequently colonized with the aforementioned potential pathogens and the udder sits below, waiting to be splashed with cow pie. MMMMmmmmmm. Milk and pie. Seriously. Would you lick any cow udder, no matter how clean?
...
Once upon a time milk was associated with 25% of infection outbreaks; in part due to pasteurization those rates fell to 1%. Thanks to the raw milk advocates, infections are looking up. The sad thing is parents will feed their children milk supplemented with cow poo. Adults have the right to be stupid; it is what makes America great. But it is a shame that children should suffer as a result of their parents goofy idée fixe.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-milk-in-modern-times/
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FunkyTobias wrote: »But what raw milk is, above all, a source for infection. There have been outbreaks with Campylobacter, Salmonella, E. coli associated with raw milk and other organisms can be found in raw milk, some not common in the US, including Brucella, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis (a cause of tuberculosis), Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia, Giardia, and norovirus. Some are found in cows milk, and some, such as Brucella, more common from goat’s milk. These outbreaks have lead to hospitalizations and a few deaths.
Warm liquid filled with protein, fat and sugars. A good growth media for a bacteria, if they can gain access to the milk. Impossible. Proponents of raw milk point to the clean cows and clean environments that produce raw milk, but you cannot deny both microbiology and gravity. The colons of cows are frequently colonized with the aforementioned potential pathogens and the udder sits below, waiting to be splashed with cow pie. MMMMmmmmmm. Milk and pie. Seriously. Would you lick any cow udder, no matter how clean?
...
Once upon a time milk was associated with 25% of infection outbreaks; in part due to pasteurization those rates fell to 1%. Thanks to the raw milk advocates, infections are looking up. The sad thing is parents will feed their children milk supplemented with cow poo. Adults have the right to be stupid; it is what makes America great. But it is a shame that children should suffer as a result of their parents goofy idée fixe.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-milk-in-modern-times/
Hush you. We don't want your facts around here.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »But what raw milk is, above all, a source for infection. There have been outbreaks with Campylobacter, Salmonella, E. coli associated with raw milk and other organisms can be found in raw milk, some not common in the US, including Brucella, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis (a cause of tuberculosis), Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia, Giardia, and norovirus. Some are found in cows milk, and some, such as Brucella, more common from goat’s milk. These outbreaks have lead to hospitalizations and a few deaths.
Warm liquid filled with protein, fat and sugars. A good growth media for a bacteria, if they can gain access to the milk. Impossible. Proponents of raw milk point to the clean cows and clean environments that produce raw milk, but you cannot deny both microbiology and gravity. The colons of cows are frequently colonized with the aforementioned potential pathogens and the udder sits below, waiting to be splashed with cow pie. MMMMmmmmmm. Milk and pie. Seriously. Would you lick any cow udder, no matter how clean?
...
Once upon a time milk was associated with 25% of infection outbreaks; in part due to pasteurization those rates fell to 1%. Thanks to the raw milk advocates, infections are looking up. The sad thing is parents will feed their children milk supplemented with cow poo. Adults have the right to be stupid; it is what makes America great. But it is a shame that children should suffer as a result of their parents goofy idée fixe.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-milk-in-modern-times/
Sounds like propaganda by the Bacteria Lobby
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tincanonastring wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »But what raw milk is, above all, a source for infection. There have been outbreaks with Campylobacter, Salmonella, E. coli associated with raw milk and other organisms can be found in raw milk, some not common in the US, including Brucella, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis (a cause of tuberculosis), Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia, Giardia, and norovirus. Some are found in cows milk, and some, such as Brucella, more common from goat’s milk. These outbreaks have lead to hospitalizations and a few deaths.
Warm liquid filled with protein, fat and sugars. A good growth media for a bacteria, if they can gain access to the milk. Impossible. Proponents of raw milk point to the clean cows and clean environments that produce raw milk, but you cannot deny both microbiology and gravity. The colons of cows are frequently colonized with the aforementioned potential pathogens and the udder sits below, waiting to be splashed with cow pie. MMMMmmmmmm. Milk and pie. Seriously. Would you lick any cow udder, no matter how clean?
...
Once upon a time milk was associated with 25% of infection outbreaks; in part due to pasteurization those rates fell to 1%. Thanks to the raw milk advocates, infections are looking up. The sad thing is parents will feed their children milk supplemented with cow poo. Adults have the right to be stupid; it is what makes America great. But it is a shame that children should suffer as a result of their parents goofy idée fixe.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-milk-in-modern-times/
Hush you. We don't want your facts around here.
LOL, I'd love to see facts, all that was is FUD.
There have been all those outbreaks in pasteurized milk, spinach, spring mix, bagged vegetables, etc. etc. ad infinitum.
Show hard data.0 -
xmichaelyx wrote: »SherryTeach wrote: »I would never consume raw milk.
http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-and-answers.html
You're as likely to get sick from raw milk as you are from store-bought sprouts or lettuce: http://http://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/types/fruits/sprouts.html
The CDC's job is to keep you scared and cover their own a$$es, and the "science" behind their warnings is non-existent, which is why they don't point to any.
Really?
Raw Milk:
From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths. Most of these illnesses were caused by Escherichia coli, Campylobacter, Salmonella, or Listeria. It is important to note that a substantial proportion of the raw milk-associated disease burden falls on children; among the 104 outbreaks from 1998-2011 with information on the patients’ ages available, 82% involved at least one person younger than 20 years old. [/quote]
Sprouts:
Since 1996, there have been at least 30 reported outbreaks of foodborne illness associated with different types of raw and lightly cooked sprouts. Most of these outbreaks were caused by Salmonella and E. coli.[/quote]
FYI 148>30.
And even if sprouts were just as dangerous as raw milk, this would be a reason to avoid sprouts, not consume raw milk.
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Raw cheese is legal where I live, which I consume and love, but not milk or other milk products. I would buy them in a heartbeat if they were.0
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Yes it would be nice to see data but the above is a tu quoque logical fallacy.tincanonastring wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »But what raw milk is, above all, a source for infection. There have been outbreaks with Campylobacter, Salmonella, E. coli associated with raw milk and other organisms can be found in raw milk, some not common in the US, including Brucella, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis (a cause of tuberculosis), Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia, Giardia, and norovirus. Some are found in cows milk, and some, such as Brucella, more common from goat’s milk. These outbreaks have lead to hospitalizations and a few deaths.
Warm liquid filled with protein, fat and sugars. A good growth media for a bacteria, if they can gain access to the milk. Impossible. Proponents of raw milk point to the clean cows and clean environments that produce raw milk, but you cannot deny both microbiology and gravity. The colons of cows are frequently colonized with the aforementioned potential pathogens and the udder sits below, waiting to be splashed with cow pie. MMMMmmmmmm. Milk and pie. Seriously. Would you lick any cow udder, no matter how clean?
...
Once upon a time milk was associated with 25% of infection outbreaks; in part due to pasteurization those rates fell to 1%. Thanks to the raw milk advocates, infections are looking up. The sad thing is parents will feed their children milk supplemented with cow poo. Adults have the right to be stupid; it is what makes America great. But it is a shame that children should suffer as a result of their parents goofy idée fixe.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-milk-in-modern-times/
Hush you. We don't want your facts around here.
LOL, I'd love to see facts, all that was is FUD.
There have been all those outbreaks in pasteurized milk, spinach, spring mix, bagged vegetables, etc. etc. ad infinitum.
Show hard data.
It doesn't matter that infections are caused by other things as well.
Why climb a rope across a gorge when there is a perfectly good bridge right beside it.
That said, if the taste and perceived health benefits are worth it to you, go ahead and gamble.
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Pop quiz hotshot!FunkyTobias wrote: »FYI 148>30.
And even if sprouts were just as dangerous as raw milk, this would be a reason to avoid sprouts, not consume raw milk.
When is 30>148?
When you look at magnitude of infection.
It's not even close. Again, FUD. Without actionable data.
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YES!! ITS A BIG DEAL HERE!,,, so many people are against it.0
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Yes it would be nice to see data but the above is a tu quoque logical fallacy.tincanonastring wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »But what raw milk is, above all, a source for infection. There have been outbreaks with Campylobacter, Salmonella, E. coli associated with raw milk and other organisms can be found in raw milk, some not common in the US, including Brucella, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis (a cause of tuberculosis), Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia, Giardia, and norovirus. Some are found in cows milk, and some, such as Brucella, more common from goat’s milk. These outbreaks have lead to hospitalizations and a few deaths.
Warm liquid filled with protein, fat and sugars. A good growth media for a bacteria, if they can gain access to the milk. Impossible. Proponents of raw milk point to the clean cows and clean environments that produce raw milk, but you cannot deny both microbiology and gravity. The colons of cows are frequently colonized with the aforementioned potential pathogens and the udder sits below, waiting to be splashed with cow pie. MMMMmmmmmm. Milk and pie. Seriously. Would you lick any cow udder, no matter how clean?
...
Once upon a time milk was associated with 25% of infection outbreaks; in part due to pasteurization those rates fell to 1%. Thanks to the raw milk advocates, infections are looking up. The sad thing is parents will feed their children milk supplemented with cow poo. Adults have the right to be stupid; it is what makes America great. But it is a shame that children should suffer as a result of their parents goofy idée fixe.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-milk-in-modern-times/
Hush you. We don't want your facts around here.
LOL, I'd love to see facts, all that was is FUD.
There have been all those outbreaks in pasteurized milk, spinach, spring mix, bagged vegetables, etc. etc. ad infinitum.
Show hard data.
It doesn't matter that infections are caused by other things as well.
Why climb a rope across a gorge when there is a perfectly good bridge right beside it.
That said, if the taste and perceived health benefits are worth it to you, go ahead and gamble.
It's not a fallacy, it's a simple fact of the matter. One is claiming that you shouldn't drink raw milk because there is potential for infection.
Simple fact remains, there is risk and history of infection (particularly at greater magnitudes) in other forms of processed foods. It was fud. Although granted, it does bring the blue poster's hypocrisy into question only if he then espouses the ultimate safety of other processed foods. (Which he did do in a later post, erroneously by obfuscating variables.)0 -
Pop quiz hotshot!FunkyTobias wrote: »FYI 148>30.
And even if sprouts were just as dangerous as raw milk, this would be a reason to avoid sprouts, not consume raw milk.
When is 30>148?
When you look at magnitude of infection.
It's not even close. Again, FUD. Without actionable data.
Fine. What is the magnitude of infection from sprouts? And like I said before, if sprouts are more dangerous, this means you should avoid sprouts.
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Avoiding things because they are "possibly dangerous" isn't a healthy way to approach life. Everything comes with an element of risk.FunkyTobias wrote: »
Pop quiz hotshot!FunkyTobias wrote: »FYI 148>30.
And even if sprouts were just as dangerous as raw milk, this would be a reason to avoid sprouts, not consume raw milk.
When is 30>148?
When you look at magnitude of infection.
It's not even close. Again, FUD. Without actionable data.
Fine. What is the magnitude of infection from sprouts? And like I said before, if sprouts are more dangerous, this means you should avoid sprouts.
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Nestle Quick. Strawberry.0
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We have 2 deaths over a span of 13 years according to the CDC.
Avoiding things because they are "possibly dangerous" isn't a healthy way to approach life. Everything comes with an element of risk.FunkyTobias wrote: »
Pop quiz hotshot!FunkyTobias wrote: »FYI 148>30.
And even if sprouts were just as dangerous as raw milk, this would be a reason to avoid sprouts, not consume raw milk.
When is 30>148?
When you look at magnitude of infection.
It's not even close. Again, FUD. Without actionable data.
Fine. What is the magnitude of infection from sprouts? And like I said before, if sprouts are more dangerous, this means you should avoid sprouts.
Yes, and we need to weigh those risks carefully.
Can you die skydiving? Yes, but it's certainly a rush and a great way to say you've lived an adventurous and exciting life.
Can you die from raw milk? Yes. And...um...well some people say it tastes better? I guess...
Take risks, but be smart about it. Dying over the taste of milk is pretty stupid in my eyes.
Granted, they provide incomplete data, however 2 deaths in 13 years is essentially statistically insignificant in frequency. However, compared to bagged spinach, the 2006 bagged spinach recall was due to e.coli, that claimed 3 lives.
http://www.fda.gov/newsevents/newsroom/pressannouncements/2007/ucm108873.htm
That was just one occurrence, how many deaths would we see over the same period of time? If we're talking dangerous foodstuffs here, raw milk isn't the one to villify.
there's also incomplete data as to whether the illnesses and deaths from raw milk were from actual raw milk, or raw milk products. There are far more raw milk based products available than raw milk.
We're focusing on margins here, being concerned about something that isn't statistically significant.
Dying over the taste of spinach is pretty stupid in my eyes. 0 -
SherryTeach wrote: »I would never consume raw milk.
http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-and-answers.html
My thought exactly. We started pasteurizing it for a reason.
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13 years of data show 2 deaths.
2. That's not statistically significant of anything. I mean hey, all you want, focus on the extreme dangers of those 2 deaths, when there is far "more dangerous" other foodstuffs out there. In the grand scheme of things though, it's wholly irrelevant.
I eat foie gras, sushi, undercooked beef. All risky undertakings, yet we don't have people deucing in their pants over it, is just that raw milk is a convenient novelty to hand wring and focus on.
Hell, just to throw this in the mix for the laughs is this:
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/PDFs/pasteurized-dairy-outbreak-table.pdf
Even pasteurized dairy isn't wholly safe, again, we're looking at statisically insignificant levels of sickness or death. It really is a non-issue. However, by all means, avoid it.
As for flavor, yeah, it tastes better. Just like eggs from hand raised chickens, and meat from non-industrial ag. Regardless of the increased risk trade off for all those things. I'm just glad there are choices. Even if there is a ton of FUD associated.0 -
13 years of data show 2 deaths.
2. That's not statistically significant of anything. I mean hey, all you want, focus on the extreme dangers of those 2 deaths, when there is far "more dangerous" other foodstuffs out there. In the grand scheme of things though, it's wholly irrelevant.
I eat foie gras, sushi, undercooked beef. All risky undertakings, yet we don't have people deucing in their pants over it, is just that raw milk is a convenient novelty to hand wring and focus on.
Hell, just to throw this in the mix for the laughs is this:
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/PDFs/pasteurized-dairy-outbreak-table.pdf
Even pasteurized dairy isn't wholly safe, again, we're looking at statisically insignificant levels of sickness or death. It really is a non-issue. However, by all means, avoid it.
As for flavor, yeah, it tastes better. Just like eggs from hand raised chickens, and meat from non-industrial ag. Regardless of the increased risk trade off for all those things. I'm just glad there are choices. Even if there is a ton of FUD associated.
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