Self hatred info I learned today
ninerbuff
Posts: 49,027 Member
We had a free seminar this morning (by a psychiatrist) on how self hatred isn't constructive to self improvement or weight loss. While one can hate being fat, overweight, etc., most self hatred according to the psychiatrist, is one more of self loathing, low esteem, depression and even bordering on mental disorder. He even mentioned how it can lead to "autophobia", and create more issues with the person overall.
So what does this have to do with weight loss? Even people who lose a good amount of weight and get into a normal BMI or weight range can still have issues of self hating themselves. Initially, they hated being fat and that if they were normal, they would be more happy. Where they should be much more content because of the achievement, they look negatively at how they still aren't as "pretty", "hot" or "desirable" as their other peers who have lost weight.
It was informational for many and personally I want to converse more with the psychiatrist on what else to look for if it might be suspected that a person may have an issue with self hatred of themselves. Hopefully if I can learn more and if people need the help, I can help direct them to the right experts.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
So what does this have to do with weight loss? Even people who lose a good amount of weight and get into a normal BMI or weight range can still have issues of self hating themselves. Initially, they hated being fat and that if they were normal, they would be more happy. Where they should be much more content because of the achievement, they look negatively at how they still aren't as "pretty", "hot" or "desirable" as their other peers who have lost weight.
It was informational for many and personally I want to converse more with the psychiatrist on what else to look for if it might be suspected that a person may have an issue with self hatred of themselves. Hopefully if I can learn more and if people need the help, I can help direct them to the right experts.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0
Replies
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Good information and I applaud you for wanting to learn more. Anytime we can help someone else find their way, it is a good day0
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I get when people are unsatisfied with their overall physique and want to change it. What I NEED to be aware of is if someone is practically self loathing about themselves regardless if they improved themselves or not. Better understanding of this will only be good for me and them.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Even people who lose a good amount of weight and get into a normal BMI or weight range can still have issues of self hating themselves. Initially, they hated being fat and that if they were normal, they would be more happy. Where they should be much more content because of the achievement, they look negatively at how they still aren't as "pretty", "hot" or "desirable" as their other peers who have lost weight.
How would this be different from dismorphia? Is it a matter of perception? One is actual directed self hate vs. an inability to parse what they see wrt themselves in a reasonable manner?0 -
I think the issue is that someone who hates themselves is going to be unhappy regardless of how they look. They may pin that self-loathing on their weight or some other attribute but that isn't the real issue. It could be an emotionally abusive upbringing where they were consistently told they were no good, unworthy, not loveable, etc. Sometimes it's not even an abusive relationship that causes it but seeing their mother or other role model practicing self-loathing out loud.
People in this situation need to learn to love themselves before they'll ever be happy. Money or the perfect body do not bring instant happiness in these cases. To paraphrase Buckaroo Bonzai, "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are."0 -
Yes. Dismorphia is the inability to see oneself properly. I've seen quite a few people in these forums talk about the fact that when they look in the mirror they still see the overweight person they once were. Anorexics usually suffer from some level of dismorphia along with other issues that might cause them to decide they still aren't thin enough (an inability to control the world around them, for instance).Even people who lose a good amount of weight and get into a normal BMI or weight range can still have issues of self hating themselves. Initially, they hated being fat and that if they were normal, they would be more happy. Where they should be much more content because of the achievement, they look negatively at how they still aren't as "pretty", "hot" or "desirable" as their other peers who have lost weight.
How would this be different from dismorphia? Is it a matter of perception? One is actual directed self hate vs. an inability to parse what they see wrt themselves in a reasonable manner?
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I think they are both are a form of mental disorder. Not sure if there is a grade that separates the two, but I'll ask an expert at our hospital and get back to you.Even people who lose a good amount of weight and get into a normal BMI or weight range can still have issues of self hating themselves. Initially, they hated being fat and that if they were normal, they would be more happy. Where they should be much more content because of the achievement, they look negatively at how they still aren't as "pretty", "hot" or "desirable" as their other peers who have lost weight.
How would this be different from dismorphia? Is it a matter of perception? One is actual directed self hate vs. an inability to parse what they see wrt themselves in a reasonable manner?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 0 -
They're different in that with dysmorphia, the person is not seeing reality - they see themselves as obese when they are healthy, for example. Self-loathers see themselves as they are, but they can't stop comparing themselves to others that are 'better' and hating themselves for not making the grade. Even if they improve themselves to meet or beat their original goals, they just move the goalposts so they are always on the losing side, no matter how much they accomplish.0
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Psychiatry - the profession with the highest suicide rate. How ironic.0
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herrspoons wrote: »Self loathing is a symptom, which manifests in a number of disorders of which BDD is one.
^^^ this
as for how to spot it in people you're trying to help.... things like saying "I hate myself" as opposed to "I hate being fat". Any sign of "I want to lose weight so I can be happy/like myself/live my life/etc".... you can do all of these things (and many others) while you are fat. If someone seems to mentally have their life and ability to like/accept themselves on hold until they hit a certain (sometimes unspecificed) weight/dress size/etc, then that's a red flag. This probably seems to a lot of people to be a good motivation to lose weight, but it's not, because self-loathing is a hinderance to the process. People who already like and accept themselves, but have a desire to improve themselves because they believe that they deserve better have much better motivation and are also able to cope with setbacks better. people who hate themselves go into a deeper cycle of self-blame and self-loathing with setbacks. People who like themselves tend to view setbacks much more objectively and have the motivation to pick themselves up and keep going.
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Incidentally, Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life is the title of an excellent book by Jon Kabat-Zinn. Highly recommended for anyone who wants a more balanced perspective on life.People in this situation need to learn to love themselves before they'll ever be happy. Money or the perfect body do not bring instant happiness in these cases. To paraphrase Buckaroo Bonzai, "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are."
The fact is that money or the perfect body or the perfect job, home, or partner do not bring happiness to anyone, ever. Happiness always comes from within. It is an inner experience. And we create our own experience -- not in some magical woo-woo kind of way, as in the "law of attraction," but in the practical sense that our worlds consist of our inner responses.
And it's possible to alter those responses. Mindfulness meditation is one way. Counseling is one way. There are many ways. But thinking that circumstances like a perfect body will make us happy is a perfect recipe for unhappiness.
Why? Because it leads in one of two directions:
1) I've reached my ideal weight and I'm still not happy. I have to keep losing, exercising, or whatever. (That way lies eating disorders and other obsessions.)
2) I recognize that my body is as good as it's going to get, and I'm still not happy. I need more money, a better job, etc., etc. Then I'll be happy. (That way lies endless frustration. Because happiness is always within.)0 -
Could both of those viewpoints exist at the same time, and not be say... negative?neandermagnon wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Self loathing is a symptom, which manifests in a number of disorders of which BDD is one.
^^^ this
as for how to spot it in people you're trying to help.... things like saying "I hate myself" as opposed to "I hate being fat". Any sign of "I want to lose weight so I can be happy/like myself/live my life/etc".... you can do all of these things (and many others) while you are fat. If someone seems to mentally have their life and ability to like/accept themselves on hold until they hit a certain (sometimes unspecificed) weight/dress size/etc, then that's a red flag. This probably seems to a lot of people to be a good motivation to lose weight, but it's not, because self-loathing is a hinderance to the process. People who already like and accept themselves, but have a desire to improve themselves because they believe that they deserve better have much better motivation and are also able to cope with setbacks better. people who hate themselves go into a deeper cycle of self-blame and self-loathing with setbacks. People who like themselves tend to view setbacks much more objectively and have the motivation to pick themselves up and keep going.
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I have major issues with this. I absolutely hate myself and I'm 4lbs away from my goal and I so know I'm not going to be happy when I get there. I want to lose more weight than that because my body still does not look the way I want it to even with exercise every day.0
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You should not go looking for people who might be self-loathing. But the obvious way to know if someone has issues with these sort of feelings is if they say a lot of punishing negative sounding things about themselves. Don't be quick to jump on someone says something like oh i'm stupid. Everyone says stuff like that. But people who are self loathing say very strong stuff about themselves to themselves and often. Whether they say it out loud in a gym or similar is hard to say. Many people keep these feelings to themselves.
I think as a fitness instructor you should not get into this business of directing people at all on psychological matters unless they confide in you that they are struggling with depression anxiety or self esteem issues. Or if a person looks really sad, you could ask them if they are ok and you can say you are concerned about them. They might then open up and then you can suggest they get professional help. If they brush you off, there's nothing much you can do. Don't pay too much attention to them. They might come and talk to you another time if they perceive you to be a supportive person.
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Dude, he's sharing some stuff he learned. It's cool.Patttience wrote: »I think as a fitness instructor you should not get into this business of directing people at all on psychological matters unless they confide in you that they are struggling with depression anxiety or self esteem issues.
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Could both of those viewpoints exist at the same time, and not be say... negative?neandermagnon wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Self loathing is a symptom, which manifests in a number of disorders of which BDD is one.
^^^ this
as for how to spot it in people you're trying to help.... things like saying "I hate myself" as opposed to "I hate being fat". Any sign of "I want to lose weight so I can be happy/like myself/live my life/etc".... you can do all of these things (and many others) while you are fat. If someone seems to mentally have their life and ability to like/accept themselves on hold until they hit a certain (sometimes unspecificed) weight/dress size/etc, then that's a red flag. This probably seems to a lot of people to be a good motivation to lose weight, but it's not, because self-loathing is a hinderance to the process. People who already like and accept themselves, but have a desire to improve themselves because they believe that they deserve better have much better motivation and are also able to cope with setbacks better. people who hate themselves go into a deeper cycle of self-blame and self-loathing with setbacks. People who like themselves tend to view setbacks much more objectively and have the motivation to pick themselves up and keep going.
You cant accept yourself and not accept yourself at the same time.... maybe someone who accepts and likes themselves might be careless in their choice of words and not mean it when they say they can't be happy or live their life while they're fat, but if they truly believe that, then it's toxic and they obviously don't like and accept themselves. The OP asked for what to look out for in people (he's a personal trainer so I'm assuming he means his clients) - there's not going to be one single thing to look out for that's 100% effective, but if you look out for that general attitude - i.e. people saying they don't like themselves (as opposed to not liking being fat) or that they can't be happy or live their life until they are not fat any more, then that's at least something that he should take notice of.
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Hm, this is all very thought provoking.0
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Actually, mindfullness is being fully aware of the here and now. To be completely mindful you need to let go of past experience and future possibilities/consequences/expectations. You fill your awareness with the present moment. Accountability is not really a possibility during mindful meditation. That is why you only spend as much time in mindfulness as you need to in order to gain the distance to calmly deal with the situation at hand.0
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Really interesting to me, as I am a self loather!0
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I got reported for posting this because it's unkind to tell people that they wont be handed their self esteem when they reach goal weight, because it's something they have to cultivate along the way. We're supposed to be encouraging and we're supposed to tell people that losing weight fixes everything.0
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Well, that makes no sense. That you were reported, I mean. Unless you were super rude about it.I got reported for posting this because it's unkind to tell people that they wont be handed their self esteem when they reach goal weight, because it's something they have to cultivate along the way. We're supposed to be encouraging and we're supposed to tell people that losing weight fixes everything.
It'd certainly be nice if losing weight fixed all of our other problems, wouldn't it?
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when you are unhappy, you look to the find the reason why.
depending on how long you have been overweight, chances are you were bullied for a long period of time as a result. the younger, the more dangerous, as you aren't able to process the shame as a fault in the person bullying you, but more as a flaw within yourself.
you define your unhappiness as fat.
you work hard, lose the fat yet you are stunned because you are still unhappy.
i know most people are ecstatic when they lose weight - i was too. INITIALLY. once the high from the scale and the compliments died down, the anger/emotional pain was still very present. i changed my body, but not my mind. years and years of being put down due to my weight did wonders to my head. trust issues, self-loathing issues. intense anxiety.
and for years i blamed myself. after two years in therapy; however, i am beginning to blame the sad people that were so low in their life that they needed to hurt me. and it is hard, because i never had any anger with them before. so i work on forgiveness. and i work on acknowledging my anger and understanding that while it was very unfair the way i was treated, i am capable of a healthy, full life.
cliche moment of the day: what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.0 -
Yep, been there done that. Vicious cycle: Self-loathing -> mindless binging to numb negative feelings -> more self-loathing because of binging behavior and resulting fat body -> more mindless binging. It's taken YEARS of mental work to overcome this and I still slip sometimes.0
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I see it along those lines too. Some one with dysmorphia may not necessarily hate themselves, just how they can't be "perfect". Yet someone with self hate can have a "perfect" body, a great life, great family, etc.They're different in that with dysmorphia, the person is not seeing reality - they see themselves as obese when they are healthy, for example. Self-loathers see themselves as they are, but they can't stop comparing themselves to others that are 'better' and hating themselves for not making the grade. Even if they improve themselves to meet or beat their original goals, they just move the goalposts so they are always on the losing side, no matter how much they accomplish.
I think it's going to be interesting to learn more about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I got reported for posting this because it's unkind to tell people that they wont be handed their self esteem when they reach goal weight, because it's something they have to cultivate along the way. We're supposed to be encouraging and we're supposed to tell people that losing weight fixes everything.
You were reported for being realistic? That's a little ridiculous.
losing weight doesn't fix everything. Losing weight fixes being overweight and maybe helps prevent or better certain health problems. I've been anywhere between 110 lbs and 235 (when I was pregnant) within the past five years and my self esteem was only marginally higher at my lightest than at my heaviest. Things like being in a bad relationship at a young age where even at a size 3 your boyfriend negatively comments on your physical appearance can throw your perspective off. It did for me.
Being thin does not magically make one love themself.0 -
Thanks. This may be the next book on my list.
Incidentally, Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life is the title of an excellent book by Jon Kabat-Zinn. Highly recommended for anyone who wants a more balanced perspective on life.People in this situation need to learn to love themselves before they'll ever be happy. Money or the perfect body do not bring instant happiness in these cases. To paraphrase Buckaroo Bonzai, "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are."
The fact is that money or the perfect body or the perfect job, home, or partner do not bring happiness to anyone, ever. Happiness always comes from within. It is an inner experience. And we create our own experience -- not in some magical woo-woo kind of way, as in the "law of attraction," but in the practical sense that our worlds consist of our inner responses.
And it's possible to alter those responses. Mindfulness meditation is one way. Counseling is one way. There are many ways. But thinking that circumstances like a perfect body will make us happy is a perfect recipe for unhappiness.
Why? Because it leads in one of two directions:
1) I've reached my ideal weight and I'm still not happy. I have to keep losing, exercising, or whatever. (That way lies eating disorders and other obsessions.)
2) I recognize that my body is as good as it's going to get, and I'm still not happy. I need more money, a better job, etc., etc. Then I'll be happy. (That way lies endless frustration. Because happiness is always within.)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
pattycakes80 wrote: »when you are unhappy, you look to the find the reason why.
depending on how long you have been overweight, chances are you were bullied for a long period of time as a result. the younger, the more dangerous, as you aren't able to process the shame as a fault in the person bullying you, but more as a flaw within yourself.
you define your unhappiness as fat.
I relate to this so much.
And thank you OP for sharing the knowledge. I suffer from Bipolar/Anxiety and that goes hand in hand with self loathing and self hatred. It's been an uphill battle ever since I was very young (I told my mom when I was 10 I hated myself- I was bullied hard).
Now here I am trying to overcome my insecurities, self hatred, anything that can hold me back and just stick with it. I'm going to see my psychiatrist on the 2nd and I can't wait to tell her about this journey so far. I just hope I can finally disconnect the sadness I feel from the way I look on the outside. My boyfriend always tells me "Your weight is temporary but your life is not- So smile and love yourself"0 -
Psychology isn't my profession nor something I'm trained in, so I wouldn't even bother with trying to treat someone. What I'm trying to learn is how to spot it more accurately so I have an idea of steps to take if it's something I run into.Patttience wrote: »You should not go looking for people who might be self-loathing. But the obvious way to know if someone has issues with these sort of feelings is if they say a lot of punishing negative sounding things about themselves. Don't be quick to jump on someone says something like oh i'm stupid. Everyone says stuff like that. But people who are self loathing say very strong stuff about themselves to themselves and often. Whether they say it out loud in a gym or similar is hard to say. Many people keep these feelings to themselves.
I think as a fitness instructor you should not get into this business of directing people at all on psychological matters unless they confide in you that they are struggling with depression anxiety or self esteem issues. Or if a person looks really sad, you could ask them if they are ok and you can say you are concerned about them. They might then open up and then you can suggest they get professional help. If they brush you off, there's nothing much you can do. Don't pay too much attention to them. They might come and talk to you another time if they perceive you to be a supportive person.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
I got reported for posting this because it's unkind to tell people that they wont be handed their self esteem when they reach goal weight, because it's something they have to cultivate along the way. We're supposed to be encouraging and we're supposed to tell people that losing weight fixes everything.
Kind of seems like you have a flagging stalker at this point.
I'd agree that it's something you need to learn to develop, and it's definitely something I'm currently struggling with. My loss has been really slow, and it's frustrating, and I keep comparing myself to others who look better than I do at my current weight or people who have lost faster, etc. And I focus on those over all the progress I've made.
And as to a fitness trainer "treating people", I don't think that is the point. If you recognize that this is a common problem, you can really focus on trying to build up and compliment clients and try to change the self hate talk during your process of coaching them. And if clients are bad, then maybe you could suggest they see a professional.0
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