Eating fats within 3 hours either side of a workout.
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This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/170959240 -
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This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924
What about dietary intake of the 2 groups? Where they completely equal as far as % of surplus?
Thats what I was looking for. It doesn't appear to be so...
https://www.purdue.edu/swo/nutrition/KnowItAll/HealthyWeightGain/EffectOfSupplTiming&ResistanceExcerciseOfSkeletalMuscleHypertrophy.pdf0 -
This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924
Just note, that study was one referenced by a paper by Aragon and others and they found little evidence of timing.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24864135
Also, a confounding factor in the one you reference is that they had a pre-workout as well as post-workout supplementation meaning that protein from before was likely filling up their amino acid pool prior and during the workout so that it was there for the window. I also didn't see a results section for the abstract that would have shown better the details. We cannot know the magnitude of the effects from the abstract .
ETA Thanks Kyle for the link.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924
What about dietary intake of the 2 groups? Where they completely equal as far as % of surplus?
Thats what I was looking for. It doesn't appear to be so...
https://www.purdue.edu/swo/nutrition/KnowItAll/HealthyWeightGain/EffectOfSupplTiming&ResistanceExcerciseOfSkeletalMuscleHypertrophy.pdf
Is it just me, or does it just look like the PRE-POST group was much more athletic than the MOR-EVE. Average same height but out weighed them by 4kg and 1kg less BF to boot. The results seem to indicate that the PRE-POST group probably outworked the MOR-EVE group.
ETA also the PRE-POST was ave 21in age(basically 18-24) and the MOR-EVE was ave 24 in age (20-28).0 -
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I honestly love this debate lol! We can obviously go in circles with this, but I think we all agree that sans optimal training and overall nutrition, a focus on peri-workout nutrition is futile. My comment about lifestyle and comparing to elite athletes was to only serve as context. Does one need to be an elite athlete to be concerned with PWO nutrition and nutrient timing? Of course not. Does PWO nutrition and nutrient timing play a significant role in our (average athletes) quest for optimal strength/muscle/aesthetic/performance goals? I think we can all agree no. However, regardless of statistical significance, if one believes that they are to gain any type of edge from any activity, then that is indeed optimal for the individual.
Bottom line: what is optimal for you may not be optimal for me, and vice versa.0 -
dieselbyte wrote: »I honestly love this debate lol! We can obviously go in circles with this, but I think we all agree that sans optimal training and overall nutrition, a focus on peri-workout nutrition is futile. My comment about lifestyle and comparing to elite athletes was to only serve as context. Does one need to be an elite athlete to be concerned with PWO nutrition and nutrient timing? Of course not. Does PWO nutrition and nutrient timing play a significant role in our (average athletes) quest for optimal strength/muscle/aesthetic/performance goals? I think we can all agree no. However, regardless of statistical significance, if one believes that they are to gain any type of edge from any activity, then that is indeed optimal for the individual.
Bottom line: what is optimal for you may not be optimal for me, and vice versa.
Oh, we can certainly go in circles forever but I know I'm not an elite athlete. Will I still do a post workout drink? Sure. Does it really work? Not sure...0 -
Nutrient timing is very important? Sorry, I'll defer to Brad Schoenfeld and Alan Aragon for this one.dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/?report=classic0 -
tigersword wrote: »
Nutrient timing is very important? Sorry, I'll defer to Brad Schoenfeld and Alan Aragon for this one.dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/?report=classic
Not surprising to see Aragon come up on this subject again. He certainly has done a lot of research on this.0 -
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dieselbyte wrote: »I honestly love this debate lol! We can obviously go in circles with this, but I think we all agree that sans optimal training and overall nutrition, a focus on peri-workout nutrition is futile. My comment about lifestyle and comparing to elite athletes was to only serve as context. Does one need to be an elite athlete to be concerned with PWO nutrition and nutrient timing? Of course not. Does PWO nutrition and nutrient timing play a significant role in our (average athletes) quest for optimal strength/muscle/aesthetic/performance goals? I think we can all agree no. However, regardless of statistical significance, if one believes that they are to gain any type of edge from any activity, then that is indeed optimal for the individual.
Bottom line: what is optimal for you may not be optimal for me, and vice versa.
I agree wholeheartedly and I enjoy the debate too. I hope it highlights that there is no one size fits all and although the research does not prove the topic conclusively one way or another, at least those who have posted have their head in the game and are using research to attempt to optimize training given best available information rather than relying on something that 'somebody' was heard to have said (AKA bro science) the myth, not Lol Bro Science the person Lol.0 -
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dieselbyte wrote: »I honestly love this debate lol! We can obviously go in circles with this, but I think we all agree that sans optimal training and overall nutrition, a focus on peri-workout nutrition is futile. My comment about lifestyle and comparing to elite athletes was to only serve as context. Does one need to be an elite athlete to be concerned with PWO nutrition and nutrient timing? Of course not. Does PWO nutrition and nutrient timing play a significant role in our (average athletes) quest for optimal strength/muscle/aesthetic/performance goals? I think we can all agree no. However, regardless of statistical significance, if one believes that they are to gain any type of edge from any activity, then that is indeed optimal for the individual.
Bottom line: what is optimal for you may not be optimal for me, and vice versa.
I agree wholeheartedly and I enjoy the debate too. I hope it highlights that there is no one size fits all and although the research does not prove the topic conclusively one way or another, at least those who have posted have their head in the game and are using research to attempt to optimize training given best available information rather than relying on something that 'somebody' was heard to have said (AKA bro science) the myth, not Lol Bro Science the person Lol.
That's why I really like this section. Unfortunately it seems like slowly the people that respond to threads with their emotions are slowly creeping in. We need to build a wall. Or a fence.
At least this is still one of the most calm sections of the general area. Groups are usually the most calm. I mean gelato and ice cream, what are you going to do there? Start a food fight?
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that's what I do, I don't worry about intake of fats before or after working out....if you are spreading your "healthy" fats throughout your day you should be just fine. Spot on postnever heard anything like it
the closest I've heard is eating protein within 30 mins of strength training helps with muscle repair, supposedly
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Beautifully put from the guy with the muscles!How do you get that I'm disagreeing with you on having to have your bases covered for total daily nutrition, I never said anything remotely close to that. That's such an obvious prerequisite that I don't think it needs to be discussed in depth. I also never said that all protein synthesis occurs in the immediate post workout meal. But yes, I'd say nutrient timing is important for optimal results over the long term. If you're busting your *kitten* in the gym, why would you not dial in your diet for optimal results. I'm just stating what I and many others have found to be true in real life. To each his own I guess. Things you find to be true in your 30's may not be as applicable once you hit your 40's, then everything matters.
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Oh you were doing so well until you referred to the "general population' as being "mediocre"...I'm part of the general population and believe you me I'm anything but "mediocre"....And we're in mutual agreement on having the major bases covered. I'm contending that once those are looked after, why not address the minors to reach optimal results? I'd rather base my efforts on the results of an elite athlete rather than a mediocre general population. And in referencing age, I meant that as you age smaller details take on greater effect. I think similar rules apply to younger lifters, but they can get away with ignoring the finer points because they have the benefit of youth on their side.
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Oh you were doing so well until you referred to the "general population' as being "mediocre"...I'm part of the general population and believe you me I'm anything but "mediocre"....And we're in mutual agreement on having the major bases covered. I'm contending that once those are looked after, why not address the minors to reach optimal results? I'd rather base my efforts on the results of an elite athlete rather than a mediocre general population. And in referencing age, I meant that as you age smaller details take on greater effect. I think similar rules apply to younger lifters, but they can get away with ignoring the finer points because they have the benefit of youth on their side.
That's not what he meant. No need to bend what he said and take it personally.0
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