5/3/1 folks... goals and assistance work
Replies
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arditarose wrote: »solarpower03 wrote: »You just focus on becoming stronger on the big 4 lifts. If you are focusing on assistance etc, then Wendler says 'Majoring in minors'. However, I tend to do BBB while bulking and bodybuilder work when cutting.
Ugh I'm so tempted to just to BBB all the time.
I kind of like BBB most as I hate jumping places for multiple exercises in other assistance routine
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.
What event(s) do you run? Do you have an off-season / in-season? If you can manage the $20/month, join Jim's site because you'll see some of what I'm talking about and see how 5/3/1 has evolved even more from the Beyond book.
Have you considered just going full body and training 3-days?
Triathlons, typically 1 race every 3-4 weeks May - October. I do minimal lifting during race season... typically just upper body work once or twice a week, taking a month or so off after the season ends to decompress. I lift seriously November(ish) - April(ish), but also do a fair bit of cardio during the winter because I enjoy it (mostly pick-up basketball a few times a week, mountain biking, and running)
I've only read the original 5.3.1 ebook. I keep thinking about getting the newer versions/editions, but then I think that I need to stop reading/thinking and just do the lifts that I know I should be doing.
I started out on stronglifts, and found that was too much leg work too frequently, especially when cutting. But that was several years ago now.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.
What event(s) do you run? Do you have an off-season / in-season? If you can manage the $20/month, join Jim's site because you'll see some of what I'm talking about and see how 5/3/1 has evolved even more from the Beyond book.
Have you considered just going full body and training 3-days?
Triathlons, typically 1 race every 3-4 weeks May - October. I do minimal lifting during race season... typically just upper body work once or twice a week, taking a month or so off after the season ends to decompress. I lift seriously November(ish) - April(ish), but also do a fair bit of cardio during the winter because I enjoy it (mostly pick-up basketball a few times a week, mountain biking, and running)
I've only read the original 5.3.1 ebook. I keep thinking about getting the newer versions/editions, but then I think that I need to stop reading/thinking and just do the lifts that I know I should be doing.
I started out on stronglifts, and found that was too much leg work too frequently, especially when cutting. But that was several years ago now.
I would definitely get the Beyond 5/3/1 ebook because he has new stuff in there that I'm sure you'll dig. Things like First Set Last, Joker Sets, the Beyond template, Spinal Tap template, etc. Really a lot of good stuff in there.
I think that's one of the reasons I really like the 5/3/1 principles. It's a complete training system that can evolve and be managed to fit just about any training goal. Other programs are just that, "programs", and they are too rigid.0 -
i'm on the 531 as well, and I try to do more volume work on my accessory lifts to gain strength so they can support my main lifts. I usually rotate the accessory work to different types.
Squat- front squats, SLDL, Leg curls, Leg extenstions
Bench- Incline bench, DB bench, Flyes, pullups
deadlift- SLDL, Romanian Deadlift, good mornings, pendlay rows
OHP- shoulder press, Pullups, DB rows, and behind the neck press0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.
IMO, you should just do the one big lift a day ie squat day - you should be just doing squats, no bench or other big lifts as the whole premise is to recover completely for a week so that you give 110% on your chest day, assuming you are lifting close to your max. Many people for example tend to add more squats sets on squats day but as a 'paused' variant. You would do 5x5 paused squats instead of 5x10 as in BBB. This helped me tremendously to build strength.0 -
solarpower03 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.
IMO, you should just do the one big lift a day ie squat day - you should be just doing squats, no bench or other big lifts as the whole premise is to recover completely for a week so that you give 110% on your chest day, assuming you are lifting close to your max. Many people for example tend to add more squats sets on squats day but as a 'paused' variant. You would do 5x5 paused squats instead of 5x10 as in BBB. This helped me tremendously to build strength.
Or just go to a 3-day Full Body plan. Something as simple as...
- day 1
squat 5/3/1
press @ 85% x 5 x 5
accessory
core
- day 2
deadlift 5/3/1
bench 5/3/1
accessory
core
- day 3
squat @ 85% x 5 x 5
press @ 5/3/1
accessory
core
Do some kind of plyo jumps (speed / power development) before you squat / deadlift like 3 sets of 3-5 reps after each warm-up set. This lets you squat twice per week and gives you time to recover.0 -
the thing i love about 5/3/1 is that it can be adjusted for so many different goals. during your race/sports season? scale back to lifting twice a week. building up to race season? 2-3 times a week. off-season? lift four times a week.
lots of options out there, that you have to be smart about choosing.0 -
Capt_Apollo wrote: »the thing i love about 5/3/1 is that it can be adjusted for so many different goals. during your race/sports season? scale back to lifting twice a week. building up to race season? 2-3 times a week. off-season? lift four times a week.
lots of options out there, that you have to be smart about choosing.
and therein lies the challenge.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »solarpower03 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.
IMO, you should just do the one big lift a day ie squat day - you should be just doing squats, no bench or other big lifts as the whole premise is to recover completely for a week so that you give 110% on your chest day, assuming you are lifting close to your max. Many people for example tend to add more squats sets on squats day but as a 'paused' variant. You would do 5x5 paused squats instead of 5x10 as in BBB. This helped me tremendously to build strength.
Or just go to a 3-day Full Body plan. Something as simple as...
- day 1
squat 5/3/1
press @ 85% x 5 x 5
accessory
core
- day 2
deadlift 5/3/1
bench 5/3/1
accessory
core
- day 3
squat @ 85% x 5 x 5
press @ 5/3/1
accessory
core
Do some kind of plyo jumps (speed / power development) before you squat / deadlift like 3 sets of 3-5 reps after each warm-up set. This lets you squat twice per week and gives you time to recover.
I really like the idea here. My priorities are squat and bench, so I tweaked it a bit. Thoughts?
Day 1 -
- squat 5/3/1
- paused bench, 5x5
- 1-2 accessory lifts
Day 2 -
- RDL 5/3/1
- OHP 5/3/1
- 1-2 accessory lifts
Day 3 -
- bench 5/3/1
- front squat, 5x5
- 1-2 accessory lifts
This has me benching and squatting 2x week, and accessory work can be tweaked depending on needs, goals, working out at home vs gym, or even simply how I'm feeling that day.
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I really like the idea here. My priorities are squat and bench, so I tweaked it a bit. Thoughts?
Day 1 -
- squat 5/3/1
- paused bench, 5x5
- 1-2 accessory lifts
Day 2 -
- RDL 5/3/1
- OHP 5/3/1
- 1-2 accessory lifts
Day 3 -
- bench 5/3/1
- front squat, 5x5
- 1-2 accessory lifts
This has me benching and squatting 2x week, and accessory work can be tweaked depending on needs, goals, working out at home vs gym, or even simply how I'm feeling that day.
Yeah that's cool, I just prioritize the press over the bench but that's just preference. Couple comments.
- paused bench: Try doing this at 70% or 75% of your TM. It might be easy at first but progressing this 5lbs every three weeks will catch-up quickly.
- front squat: Make sure you're using this as a % (80% - 85%) of your Front Squat TM and follow the same progression +10lbs after 3weeks.
The weight does catch-up fast so don't be afraid to take a conservative TM.0 -
Thanks. I've been doing front squats for a couple of months, and while I have no idea what my max is, I have a sense of what a reasonably starting training weight might be. Paused bench... no idea there... did them for the 3rd time every today.0
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Thanks. I've been doing front squats for a couple of months, and while I have no idea what my max is, I have a sense of what a reasonably starting training weight might be. Paused bench... no idea there... did them for the 3rd time every today.
As long as you keep the FS weight manageable, because it's incredible how fast the weight gets heavy. With the paused bench as long as you know your Bench Press TM, just take 70% or 75% of that to start with.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Thanks. I've been doing front squats for a couple of months, and while I have no idea what my max is, I have a sense of what a reasonably starting training weight might be. Paused bench... no idea there... did them for the 3rd time every today.
As long as you keep the FS weight manageable, because it's incredible how fast the weight gets heavy. With the paused bench as long as you know your Bench Press TM, just take 70% or 75% of that to start with.
Cool, thanks again for all the help/info.
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I really only use assistance lifts to help with weaknesses in my main lifts. They don't make you "stronger," per se, but they can help you lift more if you can figure out where you suck and what can help you not suck so much. For example, my biggest struggle with deadlifting is getting the bar off the floor. I can lock out like a champ (hip thrusts and kettlebell swings say hi). So I spend more time doing things like deficit deadlifts and speed pulls. I think some people pick assistance lifts based on some imagined need to hit certain body parts or because they think their lack of deadlifting talent is related to hamstring weakness instead of core weakness. Honestly, this is where having a coach kind of changed my life in the gym.0
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I really only use assistance lifts to help with weaknesses in my main lifts. They don't make you "stronger," per se, but they can help you lift more if you can figure out where you suck and what can help you not suck so much. For example, my biggest struggle with deadlifting is getting the bar off the floor. I can lock out like a champ (hip thrusts and kettlebell swings say hi). So I spend more time doing things like deficit deadlifts and speed pulls. I think some people pick assistance lifts based on some imagined need to hit certain body parts or because they think their lack of deadlifting talent is related to hamstring weakness instead of core weakness. Honestly, this is where having a coach kind of changed my life in the gym.
Good post. That's the muddiness I've been lost in of late.0 -
Thanks. I've been doing front squats for a couple of months, and while I have no idea what my max is, I have a sense of what a reasonably starting training weight might be. Paused bench... no idea there... did them for the 3rd time every today.
According to Charles Poliquin, your front squat should be 85% of your back squats. If you do more, then your back squats need to improve and vice versa.0 -
I wouldn't normally post something from Jim's site because he gives his members a lot of great information and it wouldn't be right to share the training he provides. This article is more philosophical for a lack of better words and I think is worth sharing.
"Principles of Being Strong and Being in Great Shape
This article isn’t for everyone – this is for those that want to accomplish something different/great in two areas of training: strength and conditioning. If your goal is to increase your strength in PL or OLY lifting, then this is not for you. If your specific goals are to increase your strength and accomplish something different/crazy in a conditioning movement/exercise – this is for you. There is no specific workout/routine in this article rather some principles that will help guide you in your own programming/training. Principles are always better than X’s and O’s because it will help you for the rest of your life, not for a couple weeks.
1. Recovery is paramount – this is where learning to program correctly comes into play. How you structure your week/month is going to be much different with two distinct goals. You will have to redefine your approach. Things have to spaced out appropriately or combined to be effective.
2. Do ONLY what is necessary – Too many people do too much in the weight room and don’t consider the ramifications of their choices. Everything matters: every set, every rep and every exercise. Too many people justify EVERYTHING and the result is they get NOTHING.
3. Don’t combine programs – this is a sure sign of ignorance to the training process. For example, a lifter may want to squat X and run X. So they do a specific squat program and combine it with a specific running program – thinking that it will somehow mix together perfectly. Each specific program is a recipe with its own ingredients. You can’t take a recipe for lasagna and combine it with a recipe for chocolate chip cookies and expect a good result. What one needs to do is examine the PRINCIPLES of the programs, not the specifics.
4. Be patient – adding in an additional goal will stall the progress of another. So leave yourself some time to accomplish them.
5. Have specific goals – this drives me absolutely crazy. You can’t just list “I wanna be strong and be in-shape!” That is NOT a goal, it is a *kitten* wish. And wishes/prayers/desires are pointless without dedicated action and a specific destination. When people have non-specific goals it leaves them an “out”. This allows them to fail without consequence. Failing is part of life and it should help guide you in your next attempt. Failure is inevitable, so learn how to use it to your advantage.
6. Redefine strength – unless you are a powerlifter, it’s ok to have goals in the weight room that aren’t a 1RM. They can be 5RM, 20RM or whatever you want them to be. But limiting yourself to a 1RM and not competing is something that makes no sense to me. If you can pull 600 for 10 reps and clean 275 for 10 reps, no one will call you weak.
7. Your goals have to be yours – don’t take on another’s goals. Climb the mountain you created and believe in.
8. Give your body time to adapt – this goes hand in hand with “be patient.” If you are a lifter than hasn’t done much conditioning work, it will take it’s toll on your body. Give yourself time to adapt. Even a good program will take some time to adapt – don’t give up when you have one bad day/week/month. It’s all part of the process of getting better. Quitting isn’t." - Jim Wendler0 -
I'm just struggling between balancing powerlifting, oly, and Crossfit. My assistance work for 5/3/1 varies every week depending on what my oly & CF coaches program for their stuff. Typically I do a lot of core work though and posterior chain work since oly is more quad dominant. I'll never really be the best at PL or oly but they are fun and add to my Crossfit in the off-season. I really only plan on hitting PL hard for two comps throughout the year. The rest of the time, I'm just trying to maintain my strength base.
I saw big gains when I started incorporating weighted glute ham raises into my DL training. Those are a must for me! I also love pause squats (unbelted).
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If you can pull 600 for 10 reps and clean 275 for 10 reps, no one will call you weak.
If you can pull 600 for 1 rep nobody will call you weak.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.
I'm curious as to why RDL's on day four (5/3/1) vs traditional deads which you have 3x8 on day 2. I use both as "accessory work" for my Oly stuff, but typically do traditional deads in the lower rep range and RDLs for higher rep ranges.
Just curious as to the thinking here...
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kelly_e_montana wrote: »I'm just struggling between balancing powerlifting, oly, and Crossfit. My assistance work for 5/3/1 varies every week depending on what my oly & CF coaches program for their stuff. Typically I do a lot of core work though and posterior chain work since oly is more quad dominant. I'll never really be the best at PL or oly but they are fun and add to my Crossfit in the off-season. I really only plan on hitting PL hard for two comps throughout the year. The rest of the time, I'm just trying to maintain my strength base.
I saw big gains when I started incorporating weighted glute ham raises into my DL training. Those are a must for me! I also love pause squats (unbelted).
Tough one, not sure how to combine 5/3/1 and CF. I think you need to choose one to emphasize over the other. If CF is the main priority then perhaps just do a two-day 531 template and the only thing you do is the main lift and do 50 Back Raises to help with your lower back, glutes, and hamstrings and consider CF to be your assistance work. Perhaps just do CF 3 days max then, otherwise you could risk burning out, but you'll have to try it and see how you do.
5/3/1 Day 1
- Squat
- Bench Press
- Back Raises
5/3/1 Day 2
- Deadlift
- Press
Get the Beyond 5/3/1 book and follow the 5's Progression template instead of the PR sets for doing this.
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Neat thread.
I have a lot of goals, some very specific. They boil down to though, for public consumption:
- Increase strength for climbing (alpine/rock)
- Increase muscular endurance for climbing (imagine going for a walk for 6 hours, with 20-30# on you, and only being able to keep down <1500 calories)
- Increase ability in powerlifting, as it appears to be fun
- Sleep more
I do a lot of accessory work after my mains, or during my rest periods for my mains. TUT is a big factor, and I've also begun focusing on mid-back and rotator cuff muscles to fix some muscular and mobility issues.
I'll hit those accessories with things like burn outs, FSLs, pyramids without rest. For example, a standby non-coached leg session for me during fall was squats, with trap bar dls during the rest, lunges or bulgarians, if I had a lot more gas I'd get back in for squats, or I'd finish out with 6x50 hamstring curls, then 6+x50 leg extensions. The session volume for the mains would go between high volume or high weight, high volume squat sessions would be between 150 and 200 squats, high weight would be around 100-120. (Not counting warmups or bw stuff.)0 -
Neat thread.
I have a lot of goals, some very specific. They boil down to though, for public consumption:
- Increase strength for climbing (alpine/rock)
- Increase muscular endurance for climbing (imagine going for a walk for 6 hours, with 20-30# on you, and only being able to keep down <1500 calories)
- Increase ability in powerlifting, as it appears to be fun
- Sleep more
I do a lot of accessory work after my mains, or during my rest periods for my mains. TUT is a big factor, and I've also begun focusing on mid-back and rotator cuff muscles to fix some muscular and mobility issues.
I'll hit those accessories with things like burn outs, FSLs, pyramids without rest. For example, a standby non-coached leg session for me during fall was squats, with trap bar dls during the rest, lunges or bulgarians, if I had a lot more gas I'd get back in for squats, or I'd finish out with 6x50 hamstring curls, then 6+x50 leg extensions. The session volume for the mains would go between high volume or high weight, high volume squat sessions would be between 150 and 200 squats, high weight would be around 100-120. (Not counting warmups or bw stuff.)
You mentioned FSL, are you doing 5/3/1? If so, you should re-read the post above I quoted from Jim Wenler. You're really doing a lot and I would say most of it is unnecessary. If you want to do all that endurance work, then perhaps look at an "Undulating Periodization" method. If you train 3-day Full Body, for example, you could do something like Full-Body Endurance, Full-Body Strength, Full-Body Power.
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No, not doing 5/3/1, I really like the FSL idea, and something I was doing before I knew of it being called FSL. I'm contemplating 5/3/1 after the DL comp, to prep for a comp in may.
Considering how I'm feeling right now, I think it's time to dial it back a bit until my next set of bloodwork. I'm feeling off. Significantly.
This work has been excellent for my climbing though, for a fat @#$% I'm climbing decently. I need to fix this rotator cuff thing though. Blah, it's always something.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »kelly_e_montana wrote: »I'm just struggling between balancing powerlifting, oly, and Crossfit. My assistance work for 5/3/1 varies every week depending on what my oly & CF coaches program for their stuff. Typically I do a lot of core work though and posterior chain work since oly is more quad dominant. I'll never really be the best at PL or oly but they are fun and add to my Crossfit in the off-season. I really only plan on hitting PL hard for two comps throughout the year. The rest of the time, I'm just trying to maintain my strength base.
I saw big gains when I started incorporating weighted glute ham raises into my DL training. Those are a must for me! I also love pause squats (unbelted).
Tough one, not sure how to combine 5/3/1 and CF. I think you need to choose one to emphasize over the other. If CF is the main priority then perhaps just do a two-day 531 template and the only thing you do is the main lift and do 50 Back Raises to help with your lower back, glutes, and hamstrings and consider CF to be your assistance work. Perhaps just do CF 3 days max then, otherwise you could risk burning out, but you'll have to try it and see how you do.
5/3/1 Day 1
- Squat
- Bench Press
- Back Raises
5/3/1 Day 2
- Deadlift
- Press
Get the Beyond 5/3/1 book and follow the 5's Progression template instead of the PR sets for doing this.
I've been doing 5/3/1 and powerlifting for a year and am fine with combining. It's just a struggle since I don't do my own programming on CF. They actually work fine together. I have 4 seasons in my year and just break down my training that way. I can't plan my days out though since my coaches won't tell me in advance, so I have to switch the lifting around in the week. It's fine. I'm having a lot of success with it. It's just a pain because I can't plan in advance at all.
When I have meet coming up, I back off CF for 2 months.0 -
sorry double posted.
[/quote]
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kelly_e_montana wrote: »
I've been doing 5/3/1 and powerlifting for a year and am fine with combining. It's just a struggle since I don't do my own programming on CF. They actually work fine together. I have 4 seasons in my year and just break down my training that way. I can't plan my days out though since my coaches won't tell me in advance, so I have to switch the lifting around in the week. It's fine. I'm having a lot of success with it. It's just a pain because I can't plan in advance at all.
When I have meet coming up, I back off CF for 2 months.
Have you looked at how Juggernaut Training Systems or other elite training facilities that train CF, PL, Oly? My understanding is that CF athletes training for an even don't actually train traditional CF WODS. I've watched various CF events and most of the athletes, especially the strong ones in the Clean / DL ladders, have a background in Oly or PL.0
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