Define "healthy" food...
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In the end we will see who lives the longest!!
I have known people who ate "clean, healthy, whatever you want to call it', exercised every day, dropped dead of a heart attack or gets cancer, etc. I have also known people who are over weight, ate "unhealthy, bad, junk food, whatever you want to call it", never exercised, lived to be over 90 yrs to 100 yrs old. 0 -
chivalryder wrote: »chivalryder wrote: »tiffaniedemayo wrote: »I have to agree with "Goldthistime": I define healthy food as nutrient dense foods, with limited amounts of salt, sugar and fat. Meaning vegetables, lean meats, fruits and whole grains. I define junk as nutrient sparse food with lots of salt sugar or fat. Meaning chips, cheezies, candy, donuts, onion rings etc.
ok - so here is the question ...if you had a diet containing both and hit your goals does that mean that buy eating chips, cheezies, or whatever combination thereof then makes your day "unhealthy"?
No, for 99.9% of the population, it doesn't matter. For the 0.1% of the population (or less) that is seriously training to compete at an elite level of athletic competition, then yes, it would matter.
I don't believe anyone here fits into the latter.
No one?yopeeps025 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »The problem is that health and nutrition cannot be considered or discussed in a vacuum...context and dosage are incredibly important to the discussion. As individual food items are concerned, I do think there are obviously "healthier" choices and lesser choices and I do think that getting overall proper nutrition is very important to one's overall health...but I also think that some Doritos can easily fit into an overall balanced and overwhelmingly "healthful" diet without consequence.
That to me seems to be where people get so hung up...it's like they think if they have a soda that somehow negates the 6-8 servings of vegetables they had earlier or something. Context and dosage, context and dosage....
I am with you wolf man..
like I pointed out in my original OP ..if I hit my calorie/micro/macro goal for the day but within that day I had about 400-500 calories of ice cream cookies, etc, does that mean it was unhealthy?? No, it just means that I used those foods to round out my day ...
ice cream has some micro nutrients. Cookies umm I have to see the labels.
but if you already hit the micros what difference does it make???
I would be surprised if people really hit all there micro nutrients alot. If you did and you still had calories to spare I guess why not eat something with little to no nutrients in it.
Ummm multi vitamin?
Lets not go there, please. Multi-Vitamins are recently controversial on how effective they are, compared to actual food. They also don't supply you will all the micro nutrients you need. They're designed to supplement a well balanced diet, not to fix it.
Oh you mean that study that was done where the people that ran the study stated that the results were not valid due to the fact that the subject didn't even follow the plan. That study?
Does it matter? We're talking about food, and it should be a known fact that multi-vitamins are supplements, not a replacement, and that no generic mix-up of various micro nutrients are going to give you exactly what you need. Multi vitamins are a completely different subject.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »I would say how I define healthy food is somewhat complex. On a basic level, I define healthy foods as those that provide notable amounts of macro and micronutrients. Now, even though something like broccoli is not high in macronutrients, because of its micronutrient density I would still consider it healthy. Likewise, I would consider lean meats to be healthy in general. However, a lot of foods that are high in macronutrients but low in micronutrients I would not consider to be very healthy.
On a deeper level, I'm with a few of the posters here that have also defined healthy vs unhealthy in terms of the ingredients in the food. In most cases, I would not consider something to be healthy if it is loaded with lots of artificial sweeteners and other non-natural ingredients. Most of my diet from day to day is free of foods packed with this stuff. But if I'm at a party or some other place where refreshments are served that include these foods, I often will eat some. Aside from simply giving me calories, I still consider foods like commercial doughnuts unhealthy, although I sure do like the taste!
Another thing: homemade vs commercial. I eat pizza, but I consider most of the pizza I eat healthy. Why? Because the dough has been homemade from whole grain flour that has been soured, and the mozzarella cheese is not full fat. The tomato sauce and pepperoni I add to it I would neither consider to be healthy or unhealthy, but the main sources of calories (flour and cheese) are healthy IMO. The way I see it, my homemade pizza is far from commercial pizza.
Likewise, I eat cake and cookies very often, but these are homemade. They are certainly lower in fat and sugar than commercial ones. While I don't exactly consider these homemade sweets junk or unhealthy, I wouldn't call it "healthy" overall either.
Note: While I have talked about some foods being lower in fat as what I consider being healthier, by no means am I eating a particularly low fat diet. I just get a lot of my fat from other foods where it's naturally found in (nuts and cheddar cheese being examples).
Another thing: Dietary restrictions. I do have a somewhat sensitive digestive system. When it comes to something like eggs, I can't sit down and eat 2 eggs one day and 2 eggs the next. So while I consider eggs to be healthy, it wouldn't be healthy for me to eat 4 eggs over a two day time period.
so full fat mozzarella cheese is not healthy???
Got to it before I could...
I will play with low fat cheese and dairy in order to fit other fats into my diet sometimes. But, there is nothing wrong with full fat cheese. Or butter. Or oil. It's all dietary fat. What's your reasoning here?
Why is it ok to get fat from cheddar cheese and not mozz?
How do you know that your cookies and cakes are lower in fat or sugar than the bakery's down the street?0 -
oh did you go to my profile to try and find dirt on me? exactly why i locked it up bud. try harderjofjltncb6 wrote: »Also, am hoping for more forum and nutrition lessons from grey avi's with locked down food diaries.
Why would I expect to find "dirt" on you? I would expect your diary is a shining example for all others to follow. I was just hoping to pick up a few things about the right way to do this.0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »Two pages left...
...and I still don't know if we get extra credit for exceeding any of our micronutrient requirements.
Water soluble micro nutrients no.
For fat soluble micro nutrients it can become dangerous.
So more micronutrients isn't always a good thing then?
Or in other words, sometimes more micronutrients aren't inherently healthier? And may actually be unhealthy?0 -
yepIn the end we will see who lives the longest!! I have known people who ate "clean, healthy, whatever you want to call it', exercised every day, dropped dead of a heart attack or gets cancer, etc. I have also known people who are over weight, ate "unhealthy, bad, junk food, whatever you want to call it", never exercised, lived to be over 90 yrs to 100 yrs old.
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oh so you were hoping to learn from someone with a grey avi were you?jofjltncb6 wrote: »
oh did you go to my profile to try and find dirt on me? exactly why i locked it up bud. try harderjofjltncb6 wrote: »Also, am hoping for more forum and nutrition lessons from grey avi's with locked down food diaries.
Why would I expect to find "dirt" on you? I would expect your diary is a shining example for all others to follow. I was just hoping to pick up a few things about the right way to do this.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »Also, am hoping for more forum and nutrition lessons from grey avi's with locked down food diaries.
so only people with open profiles can answer?? This is a forum is it not!! Should we knock first?? I'm guessing you go to the gym, as do i. I'm guessing you find things that work for you, as do i!! And then you give others your opinion, which is all it is!! An opinion
I am just amused by the correlation between those preaching loudest about the One True Way™ seem to be the ones less likely to share...but that's just a personal thing.
Anyone can answer, obviously. And yes, it is a forum...which much to the chagrin of others means that some people may comment on subtopics that have already been "answered".
That said, while everyone is entitled to share their opinions, it doesn't mean that everyone is equally correct in their assertions.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »Two pages left...
...and I still don't know if we get extra credit for exceeding any of our micronutrient requirements.
Water soluble micro nutrients no.
For fat soluble micro nutrients it can become dangerous.
So more micronutrients isn't always a good thing then?
Or in other words, sometimes more micronutrients aren't inherently healthier? And may actually be unhealthy?
exceeding the daily recommend micro nutrients for fat soluble vitamins everyday yes can be dangerous. Lol two micro nutrients that I found were interesting in that class were calcium and vitamin D and the why for those for bones.
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http://dynamicduotraining.com/ask-the-experts-round-table-discussions/15-nutrition-myths-you-want-to-knowallow-the-experts-to-tell/
Apologies for the copy pasta:
Eric Helms-
The Myth of “Good” and “Bad” Foods
I think one of the most pervasive, and possibly detrimental mind sets is that of seeing foods as either “good” or “bad”. This is a rather seductive way of looking at foods because it is simplistic. Look at a food, identify it as friend or foe, and then go with the “good” option not the “bad” option and you’ll be healthy, fit, lean and sexy! It’s that easy! But of course, that’s not the case.
One of the problems with this mindset is that it fits perfectly into the behavioral paradigm that leads to obesity in the first place; the all or nothing mindset. One thing I find to be a commonality among folks who struggle with weight gain and permanent weight loss, is that they lose the middle ground. They bounce between being “on the diet” and falling off the band wagon and lapsing into cycles of overeating. We have no problem losing weight, we have trouble keeping the weight off. We crash diet and lose 20-30lbs in a few months, and then it all comes back on when we can’t maintain the crash diet approach.
All or nothing Black and white mindsets ignore the concepts of magnitude and frequency which are all important when it comes to long term change. Of course 1g of sugar eaten every 2 weeks will not have the same effect as 100g of sugar eaten daily, but we love to label sugar as “bad”. Even water consumed in massive excess can lead to hyponatremia and death. Sugar is not good or bad, and neither is water, they just are what they are and without attention to magnitude or frequency, labels like “good” or “bad” are misleading.
We tend to be overly reductionist in our approach to nutrition. Originally, we believed fat was the singular cause of the obesity epidemic. When the low fat craze had no impact on preventing the worsening of the obesity epidemic, we went the way of the low carb craze, and folks started consuming fat with abandon. When this didn’t turn the trend of waist expansion around, we decided that it’s not just fat or carbs, the causes are specific types of carbs and fat; specifically sugar, high fructose corn syrup and trans fat are the culprits!
The need to blame singular nutrients highlights the all or nothing, black or white attitude that is in and of itself one of the roots of unhealthy eating behavior and consequently obesity. Again, it comes down to seeking balance. The concept of balance in nutrition is inclusive of the concepts of magnitude and frequency that are needed for long term lifestyle change. Balance recognizes that it is not the small piece of chocolate that you had that wasn’t on your diet plan that was the problem, it was the carton of ice cream you had afterward!
The meal plan foods are “good”, and a piece of chocolate is “bad” and once you’d crossed over from “good” to “bad”, you said: “Screw it! I already blew it, I might as well just have cookie dough ice cream until I puke!” That is the all too common result of the all or nothing mindset in action. On the other hand, a balanced approach realizes that a small piece of chocolate is only ~100 calories, and will make a minuscule difference in terms of weight loss over time. In fact, a balanced meal plan might even allow for a daily range of calories, so that the following day could be reduced by 100 calories. Even more shockingly, a balanced meal plan might even include a piece of chocolate (blasphemy I know)!
There are truly VERY few foods that are actively bad for you. Most of the foods that we identify as “bad”, are simply low or devoid of micro-nutrients, minerals, fiber and other things like phytochemicals and protein that can be beneficial for you. These foods only become a problem when they occur frequently and with enough magnitude (frequency and magnitude!) to replace a significant enough portion of your diet that you become deficient in beneficial nutrients.
Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! It’s not as though we have a health food critic living in our esophagus that has a control box that he switches from “get leaner and healthier” to “get fatter and unhealthier” every time he spots “good” or “bad” food. Thus, a healthy diet should be inclusionary vs. exclusionary; focused around including healthy foods, not excluding “unhealthy” foods. Meet your nutrient needs, and feel free to eat things that you may have traditionally seen as “bad” in moderation; so that you are still meeting your allotted caloric intake for your weight loss goals. Don’t make the mistake of looking at foods as “good” or “bad!” Good diets can include “bad” foods and bad diets can include “good” foods. Don’t get too caught up with what you have for lunch, because it is not a singular choice that will determine the success of your health and fitness goals, it is the balanced lifestyle you commit to long term!
This!! ^^^
the only problem with this is interpretation. people use this as an excuse to eat a bowl of ice cream everyday (not that there is anything inherently wrong with that) when they have deficiencies in other areas, because MA ACE CREME! how much is too much is what it comes down to, and no one really knows, so why not minimize the stuff that has less of a micro profile as much as possible?
People not applying the concept, does not make the concept incorrect.
You can have deficiencies eating 'clean' or 'unprocessed' foods.0 -
OP just defines healthy from a macronutrient level and doesn't seem to consider the micronutrient level. Food to me is more than a measure of calories.0
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now your pickin up what im droppin, albeit i dont go to a huge extreme to hit every micro thats pretty much my thought process specifically in the terms of healthy vs unhealthy (minus the juicing, im just not a fan of liquid dieting even if it provides a greater micro profile)
i also agree with your last paragraph in that humans are very resilient, however in this day and age where food is plentiful doesnt it make sense to get the most out of every bite?
For me that would be a way to drive myself crazy for no purpose. If you don't think there is extra credit from getting more nutrients than we need, then I think it makes sense to take into account factors other than maximizing nutrient intake. Those might include pleasure and satisfaction, and will be understood differently depending on the person.
I do think it's best if one generally finds that the foods they want to eat line up with the foods they think are nutrient dense or add to the health of their diet, for the most part, and to some extent what you eat molds your taste, but I always think it's weird when people post questions like "what's better, spinach or kale?" -- I mean, eat both, if you like both, no need to identify a small number of "best" foods and eat them, variety seems better to me -- or say that pie is bad because not as nutrient dense as broccoli. Who ever chooses between pie and broccoli in reality? Maybe pie doesn't fit in your day, maybe you think it's aggressively bad for you (I do not), and maybe you think you need something with protein instead, but clearly there are contexts in which foods are eaten that ranking them on a "most nutrient dense" to "least nutrient dense" doesn't cover. Among other things, broccoli may score better than milk on your own personal scoring of foods, but if all you've had all day are vegetables, the milk is likely a healthier choice (unless you are lactose intolerant, perhaps).0 -
oh so you were hoping to learn from someone with a grey avi were you?jofjltncb6 wrote: »
oh did you go to my profile to try and find dirt on me? exactly why i locked it up bud. try harderjofjltncb6 wrote: »Also, am hoping for more forum and nutrition lessons from grey avi's with locked down food diaries.
Why would I expect to find "dirt" on you? I would expect your diary is a shining example for all others to follow. I was just hoping to pick up a few things about the right way to do this.
Yup.
And in exchange for the wisdom I gained, I could offer instruction on how to upload a picture. Everybody wins!
ETA: Because >2000 posts and no avi picture means you're forumming wrong...and I want to help you to forum the right way.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »Not sure who is worse or more annoying the hysterical "sugar is the devil" crowd or the "ermagerd processed, chemicalz, toxins" in the food hypochondriacs.
But there are ingredients we use in the U.S. that are banned in other countries because they've been proven harmful. Does it really make someone a hypochondriac to say 'I don't want to eat that' or 'that is an unhealthy food' simply because it contains known carcinogens, or other toxic chemicals (or ermagerd chemicalz). I don't think it's bad to have a healthy fear of unnatural things in food.
The problem when this is discussed here is that you will now get the "EVERYTHING HAS CHEMICALS!" people who proceed to show you what, exactly is in a blueberry and how "you can't pronounce it so it's bad for you!" It's nit-picky really when you think about it. I personally stay away from things like Red Dye #5, BPA, rBGH/rBST and the like but that's just me and it in no way makes me a "food hypochondriac".
How is Red Dye #5 bad for you?
What is it?
I was trying to work that out myself. My google-fu failed me.0 -
http://dynamicduotraining.com/ask-the-experts-round-table-discussions/15-nutrition-myths-you-want-to-knowallow-the-experts-to-tell/
Apologies for the copy pasta:
Eric Helms-
The Myth of “Good” and “Bad” Foods
I think one of the most pervasive, and possibly detrimental mind sets is that of seeing foods as either “good” or “bad”. This is a rather seductive way of looking at foods because it is simplistic. Look at a food, identify it as friend or foe, and then go with the “good” option not the “bad” option and you’ll be healthy, fit, lean and sexy! It’s that easy! But of course, that’s not the case.
One of the problems with this mindset is that it fits perfectly into the behavioral paradigm that leads to obesity in the first place; the all or nothing mindset. One thing I find to be a commonality among folks who struggle with weight gain and permanent weight loss, is that they lose the middle ground. They bounce between being “on the diet” and falling off the band wagon and lapsing into cycles of overeating. We have no problem losing weight, we have trouble keeping the weight off. We crash diet and lose 20-30lbs in a few months, and then it all comes back on when we can’t maintain the crash diet approach.
All or nothing Black and white mindsets ignore the concepts of magnitude and frequency which are all important when it comes to long term change. Of course 1g of sugar eaten every 2 weeks will not have the same effect as 100g of sugar eaten daily, but we love to label sugar as “bad”. Even water consumed in massive excess can lead to hyponatremia and death. Sugar is not good or bad, and neither is water, they just are what they are and without attention to magnitude or frequency, labels like “good” or “bad” are misleading.
We tend to be overly reductionist in our approach to nutrition. Originally, we believed fat was the singular cause of the obesity epidemic. When the low fat craze had no impact on preventing the worsening of the obesity epidemic, we went the way of the low carb craze, and folks started consuming fat with abandon. When this didn’t turn the trend of waist expansion around, we decided that it’s not just fat or carbs, the causes are specific types of carbs and fat; specifically sugar, high fructose corn syrup and trans fat are the culprits!
The need to blame singular nutrients highlights the all or nothing, black or white attitude that is in and of itself one of the roots of unhealthy eating behavior and consequently obesity. Again, it comes down to seeking balance. The concept of balance in nutrition is inclusive of the concepts of magnitude and frequency that are needed for long term lifestyle change. Balance recognizes that it is not the small piece of chocolate that you had that wasn’t on your diet plan that was the problem, it was the carton of ice cream you had afterward!
The meal plan foods are “good”, and a piece of chocolate is “bad” and once you’d crossed over from “good” to “bad”, you said: “Screw it! I already blew it, I might as well just have cookie dough ice cream until I puke!” That is the all too common result of the all or nothing mindset in action. On the other hand, a balanced approach realizes that a small piece of chocolate is only ~100 calories, and will make a minuscule difference in terms of weight loss over time. In fact, a balanced meal plan might even allow for a daily range of calories, so that the following day could be reduced by 100 calories. Even more shockingly, a balanced meal plan might even include a piece of chocolate (blasphemy I know)!
There are truly VERY few foods that are actively bad for you. Most of the foods that we identify as “bad”, are simply low or devoid of micro-nutrients, minerals, fiber and other things like phytochemicals and protein that can be beneficial for you. These foods only become a problem when they occur frequently and with enough magnitude (frequency and magnitude!) to replace a significant enough portion of your diet that you become deficient in beneficial nutrients.
Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! It’s not as though we have a health food critic living in our esophagus that has a control box that he switches from “get leaner and healthier” to “get fatter and unhealthier” every time he spots “good” or “bad” food. Thus, a healthy diet should be inclusionary vs. exclusionary; focused around including healthy foods, not excluding “unhealthy” foods. Meet your nutrient needs, and feel free to eat things that you may have traditionally seen as “bad” in moderation; so that you are still meeting your allotted caloric intake for your weight loss goals. Don’t make the mistake of looking at foods as “good” or “bad!” Good diets can include “bad” foods and bad diets can include “good” foods. Don’t get too caught up with what you have for lunch, because it is not a singular choice that will determine the success of your health and fitness goals, it is the balanced lifestyle you commit to long term!
This!! ^^^
the only problem with this is interpretation. people use this as an excuse to eat a bowl of ice cream everyday (not that there is anything inherently wrong with that) when they have deficiencies in other areas, because MA ACE CREME! how much is too much is what it comes down to, and no one really knows, so why not minimize the stuff that has less of a micro profile as much as possible?
People not applying the concept, does not make the concept incorrect.
You can have deficiencies eating 'clean' or 'unprocessed' foods.
i agree
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jofjltncb6 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »Two pages left...
...and I still don't know if we get extra credit for exceeding any of our micronutrient requirements.
Water soluble micro nutrients no.
For fat soluble micro nutrients it can become dangerous.
So more micronutrients isn't always a good thing then?
Or in other words, sometimes more micronutrients aren't inherently healthier? And may actually be unhealthy?
Selenium is water soluble.
Selenium is a micronutrient.
Selenium in excess is not a good idea.
Balance and context, in all things.
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Not sure who is worse or more annoying the hysterical "sugar is the devil" crowd or the "ermagerd processed, chemicalz, toxins" in the food hypochondriacs.
But there are ingredients we use in the U.S. that are banned in other countries because they've been proven harmful. Does it really make someone a hypochondriac to say 'I don't want to eat that' or 'that is an unhealthy food' simply because it contains known carcinogens, or other toxic chemicals (or ermagerd chemicalz). I don't think it's bad to have a healthy fear of unnatural things in food.
This is not sarcasm or whatever you want to call it but whI have ingredients is it you're speaking of. That's a real question. Don't worry I still have plenty of time to be sarcastic and condescending in other posts. But not this one. So please tell me which toxic chemicals those are.
BVO is linked to growth defects and hearing loss and is in a lot of citrus flavored soda. That's the first that comes to mind. I would consider that to be toxic.
I realize there are 'toxic' substances in all food. Even natural food, even water. But there are some that I personally would consider more dangerous than others. I still don't think that avoiding something even the FDA (which I have very little faith in) claims can be hazardous, makes me a hypochondriac.
Got any more?
How many need to be listed before it's socially acceptable to worry about what's in your food? How many are ok? Does it just have to do with how they affect you? I kind of feel like not having deformed babies is important. Call me crazy0
This discussion has been closed.
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