Complete Beginner-Can I really gain on a deficit?
Brynich
Posts: 65 Member
Hi everyone! So I've been reading quite a bit of posts and threads and I've seen it mentioned quite frequently that you absolutely cannot gain muscle on a deficit.....that is, unless you are a beginner. Is this true? If so, would the gains be appreciable or just marginal? How different would the gains be for a complete beginner while: (a) on a deficit; versus (b) maintaining; versus (c) on a lean bulk? Thanks for your time and any help and/or advice.
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I don't know about muscle gains, but strength gains? Definitely.
To pull from my own experience. I started on a deficit and strength training about 2.5 months ago. When I started I did 3x8 with 40kg on bench press. Last Thursday I hit a PB at 3x8 with 57.5kg.0 -
Here's a pretty good run down for you:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/0 -
if you are a complete beginner to lifting then yes, you can experience "newbie gains" while eating in a deficit, but those are going to peter out after about 3-6 months, and if you keep eating in a deficit, beyond stated period, you will lose some muscle mass…so the "gains" are going to be pretty minimal.
For the rest of us, that have been lifting for a wile, we will not gain any muscle mass in a deficit.
Remember:
calorie surplus = muscle gain
calorie deficit = fat loss
An analogy that I like to use is if you were building a house out of X materials and ran out of X materials could you build said house by tearing it down and building it at the same time? You cannot build something out of nothing, and same goes for building muscle in a calorie deficit.
As far as strength gains, yes you can get those in a deficit. just remember that strength gains do not equally muscle gains. You can train your body to lift more efficiently but this does not mean that you have build new muscle.
whether you could cut or bulk depends on your current stats. What is your weight/height/age/gender/ and current body fat%? If you are +15% body fat you should cut down to sub 15%, I would say AT LEAST 11-12% before you bulk…
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newb muscle gains are possible in a deficit, but also minimal. You can make excellent strength gains in a deficit of energy though.
Deficit of energy = catabolic state...you really can't gain appreciable muscle when you are catabolic
surplus of energy = anabolic state...if you're pumping iron you will put on muscle..if not, you will just get fat.0 -
You could if you were deadly accurate on logging and really understand how to do it but the progress will be so slow you might go nuts depending on where you are. If you have fat to lose then just cut and lift to preserve then start bulking when you hit your goal. Bulk with a small surplus to maximize muscle while minimizing fat regain then cut and repeat. This will probably be much more satisfying than trying to do both at the same time since you will actually see more progress at one time. Recomping is like watching paint dry.0
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ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »Here's a pretty good run down for you:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
Thank you for this link. I'll get started on it right now.if you are a complete beginner to lifting then yes, you can experience "newbie gains" while eating in a deficit, but those are going to peter out after about 3-6 months, and if you keep eating in a deficit, beyond stated period, you will lose some muscle mass…so the "gains" are going to be pretty minimal.
For the rest of us, that have been lifting for a wile, we will not gain any muscle mass in a deficit.
Remember:
calorie surplus = muscle gain
calorie deficit = fat loss
An analogy that I like to use is if you were building a house out of X materials and ran out of X materials could you build said house by tearing it down and building it at the same time? You cannot build something out of nothing, and same goes for building muscle in a calorie deficit.
As far as strength gains, yes you can get those in a deficit. just remember that strength gains do not equally muscle gains. You can train your body to lift more efficiently but this does not mean that you have build new muscle.
whether you could cut or bulk depends on your current stats. What is your weight/height/age/gender/ and current body fat%? If you are +15% body fat you should cut down to sub 15%, I would say AT LEAST 11-12% before you bulk…
Would these "newbie" gains be both strength and hypertrophy or just mainly strength? What's a reliable method to estimate body fat% since I heard those fat calipers are horribly inaccurate? I am about 155-157 pounds (weight fluctuates due to water weight I assume), 6 ft, 20 y-o, male, idk about the body fat%. Idk if I should just continue cutting or if I'm ready to start bulking. According to my BMI I'm in about the exact center of the healthy scale however everyone tells me I'm skinny and even say that I "look like a stick". This is odd, but I look skinny when I stand, but a little fat-ish when I sit. You can kind of see my ribs a little, especially if I stretch but I feel like I have a little pouch on my abdominal region. When I stand and look in the mirror I can somewhat see an outline of abs however I don't know if it really is abs or if it's just my mind playing tricks on me and it's really just weirdly shaped fat (It feels kind of soft and kind of hard at the same time). I also have what I believe to be a bit of loose skin on my abdominal area if that makes a difference. I really don't know if this description is helping at all but I could upload a pic if necessary.
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ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »Here's a pretty good run down for you:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
Thank you for this link. I'll get started on it right now.if you are a complete beginner to lifting then yes, you can experience "newbie gains" while eating in a deficit, but those are going to peter out after about 3-6 months, and if you keep eating in a deficit, beyond stated period, you will lose some muscle mass…so the "gains" are going to be pretty minimal.
For the rest of us, that have been lifting for a wile, we will not gain any muscle mass in a deficit.
Remember:
calorie surplus = muscle gain
calorie deficit = fat loss
An analogy that I like to use is if you were building a house out of X materials and ran out of X materials could you build said house by tearing it down and building it at the same time? You cannot build something out of nothing, and same goes for building muscle in a calorie deficit.
As far as strength gains, yes you can get those in a deficit. just remember that strength gains do not equally muscle gains. You can train your body to lift more efficiently but this does not mean that you have build new muscle.
whether you could cut or bulk depends on your current stats. What is your weight/height/age/gender/ and current body fat%? If you are +15% body fat you should cut down to sub 15%, I would say AT LEAST 11-12% before you bulk…
Would these "newbie" gains be both strength and hypertrophy or just mainly strength? What's a reliable method to estimate body fat% since I heard those fat calipers are horribly inaccurate? I am about 155-157 pounds (weight fluctuates due to water weight I assume), 6 ft, 20 y-o, male, idk about the body fat%. Idk if I should just continue cutting or if I'm ready to start bulking. According to my BMI I'm in about the exact center of the healthy scale however everyone tells me I'm skinny and even say that I "look like a stick". This is odd, but I look skinny when I stand, but a little fat-ish when I sit. You can kind of see my ribs a little, especially if I stretch but I feel like I have a little pouch on my abdominal region. When I stand and look in the mirror I can somewhat see an outline of abs however I don't know if it's just it really is or if it's just my mind playing tricks on me and it's really just weirdly shaped fat (It feels kind of soft and kind of hard at the same time). I really don't know if this description is helping at all but I could upload a pic if necessary.
Gaining strength involves muscle hypertrophy and CNS programming to gain efficiencies. If you are still working on the neuro programming part then your body isn't going to put on much muscle. You should put on some extra muscle but not much until after you max out the CNS gains.
Fat calipers can be very reliable and even if not completely accurate they will at least help you track your relative progress if you are consistent in your method of measuring yourself. You could also use a BF scale to track relative gains and loses in fat.
Since you are already a good weight I would start right away bulking until about 15-18% fat range then start your cut.
Good luck to you.
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Edited To Add: Front Photo (N.B. I just ate so I don't even know if this is a proper reflection of my current state)
These are some pics that I took. I hope this helps to better show what I was trying to describe earlier. Am I lean enough to start bulking? Or should I cut some more?0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Gaining strength involves muscle hypertrophy and CNS programming to gain efficiencies. If you are still working on the neuro programming part then your body isn't going to put on much muscle. You should put on some extra muscle but not much until after you max out the CNS gains.
Fat calipers can be very reliable and even if not completely accurate they will at least help you track your relative progress if you are consistent in your method of measuring yourself. You could also use a BF scale to track relative gains and loses in fat.
Since you are already a good weight I would start right away bulking until about 15-18% fat range then start your cut.
Good luck to you.
Thanks for the response! How long does the neuro-programming stage last (and how would I know when it is completed?), and is it thus a waste to eat in a surplus while in this phase (i.e would most of the calories go to fat gain)? I'll look into getting a fat caliper then, but from my pics do you think you could estimate my fat percentage?
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Gaining strength involves muscle hypertrophy and CNS programming to gain efficiencies. If you are still working on the neuro programming part then your body isn't going to put on much muscle. You should put on some extra muscle but not much until after you max out the CNS gains.
Fat calipers can be very reliable and even if not completely accurate they will at least help you track your relative progress if you are consistent in your method of measuring yourself. You could also use a BF scale to track relative gains and loses in fat.
Since you are already a good weight I would start right away bulking until about 15-18% fat range then start your cut.
Good luck to you.
Thanks for the response! How long does the neuro-programming stage last (and how would I know when it is completed?), and is it thus a waste to eat in a surplus while in this phase (i.e would most of the calories go to fat gain)? I'll look into getting a fat caliper then, but from my pics do you think you could estimate my fat percentage?
There is always some CNS programming going on, it never really stops, but the initial gains will be rather short. I'm not sure exactly since it will vary from person to person, but probably the first three or so will be the major gains there. You will see some hypertrophy as well but not as much once the neuro gains taper off. You will know when you've lost the neuro gains because your strength gains will dry up rather quickly and you will start to hit plateaus. This is the indication that you are past those initial CNS gains and that you will have to fight for hypertrophy, which is much slower to gain.
Sorry, I'm not really good at guessing body fat from photos but there are some who do a good job at it and they might chime in.
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from the pics I am guessing 14-15%….
anyone else …?0 -
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Thanks everyone. So I should get my bf down by another 5% or so before I consider bulking? Also, was I right about that being a semi-outline of abs, or is it really just a pocket of fat/flab?0
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Thanks everyone. So I should get my bf down by another 5% or so before I consider bulking? Also, was I right about that being a semi-outline of abs, or is it really just a pocket of fat/flab?
you have an outline of upper abs that you can kinda see and also slight oblique line…but there is definitely still some fat on the lower part which is why we are thinking 14-16% …
Yes, cut down to about 10-11% body fat…
when you hit about 10-11 your upper abs should show unflexed and the lower prat will be pretty flat…
some people may have more visible abs than other at 10-11 …genetics does come into play as to how your abs "look" wen visible..
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as reference point I started my bulk right about at 12%….which is where I was in my profile pic that is up now...0
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Thanks everyone. So I should get my bf down by another 5% or so before I consider bulking? Also, was I right about that being a semi-outline of abs, or is it really just a pocket of fat/flab?
This sucks, but I think that's some extra skin. So it's hard to tell your bf%.
I'd say start bulking now. Add some mass and hope that skin tightens up over time.
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1.) I'd start lifting- STAT. I woulnd't even worry so much about cutting down to a lower body fat- eat at minantance and lift the hell out of a program.
2.) this really REALLY needs to be addressed. This is odd, but I look skinny when I stand, but a little fat-ish when I sit.
this is a disturbing comment. Why? because it's something teenage girls say when they start getting all weird about their weight.
You know why you look fatish when you sit- because you're a human being- not a wax satue.
I have amazing quads-and a pretty spectacular *kitten* (well- it's pretty good to me- I'm saying spectacular because reports of those words are told to me as such) But I digress- when I sit down- it's out right elephant legs. It's a reality.
We are made of flexible not inert materials. You WILL always have wrinkles when you sit down- you are not a wax statue so just go head and get right on over that concept if you ever want to have any success at this whole body image thing.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
There is always some CNS programming going on, it never really stops, but the initial gains will be rather short. I'm not sure exactly since it will vary from person to person, but probably the first three or so will be the major gains there. You will see some hypertrophy as well but not as much once the neuro gains taper off. You will know when you've lost the neuro gains because your strength gains will dry up rather quickly and you will start to hit plateaus. This is the indication that you are past those initial CNS gains and that you will have to fight for hypertrophy, which is much slower to gain.
Sorry, I'm not really good at guessing body fat from photos but there are some who do a good job at it and they might chime in.
The major CNS programming will last the first three what? weeks? months? Does that mean that it is essentially a waste of time to run a hypertrophy oriented program (such as All Pro's) during this time period when the CNS is being reprogrammed, as opposed to running a strength oriented program (such as Starting Strength)?Thanks everyone. So I should get my bf down by another 5% or so before I consider bulking? Also, was I right about that being a semi-outline of abs, or is it really just a pocket of fat/flab?
you have an outline of upper abs that you can kinda see and also slight oblique line…but there is definitely still some fat on the lower part which is why we are thinking 14-16% …
Yes, cut down to about 10-11% body fat…
when you hit about 10-11 your upper abs should show unflexed and the lower prat will be pretty flat…
some people may have more visible abs than other at 10-11 …genetics does come into play as to how your abs "look" wen visible..
Thanks for clearing that up. Approximately how many pounds do you think I would need to lose to get to 10-11% body fat? Would losing 15 pounds be enough? 20?LeadingMuscle wrote: »Thanks everyone. So I should get my bf down by another 5% or so before I consider bulking? Also, was I right about that being a semi-outline of abs, or is it really just a pocket of fat/flab?
This sucks, but I think that's some extra skin. So it's hard to tell your bf%.
I'd say start bulking now. Add some mass and hope that skin tightens up over time.
I think there's some extra skin there as well, however there is without a doubt a good amount of fat left there. I believe it has started to tighten already though. That's one of the reasons why I was contemplating if I should start bulking, to give it some time to catch up.1.) I'd start lifting- STAT. I woulnd't even worry so much about cutting down to a lower body fat- eat at minantance and lift the hell out of a program.
2.) this really REALLY needs to be addressed. This is odd, but I look skinny when I stand, but a little fat-ish when I sit.
this is a disturbing comment. Why? because it's something teenage girls say when they start getting all weird about their weight.
You know why you look fatish when you sit- because you're a human being- not a wax satue.
I have amazing quads-and a pretty spectacular *kitten* (well- it's pretty good to me- I'm saying spectacular because reports of those words are told to me as such) But I digress- when I sit down- it's out right elephant legs. It's a reality.
We are made of flexible not inert materials. You WILL always have wrinkles when you sit down- you are not a wax statue so just go head and get right on over that concept if you ever want to have any success at this whole body image thing.
1) Wouldn't that be recomp, which is supposed to be painfully slower than bulking->cutting or vice versa?
2) Truth be told, I wasn't really stressing over this all too much. I was describing it in case it would help in determining my BF%. Strangely enough however, it didn't dawn on me that this was normal and that it happens to lean people as well. I just chalked it up to my extra-fat and skin. In any case, thank you for that as now I can completely remove that issue from my mind.0 -
Normally I'd say yes- but you haven't been lifting - you can make solid progress eating at maintenance and lifting regularly- recomping at the upper levels is when it sucks.0
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
There is always some CNS programming going on, it never really stops, but the initial gains will be rather short. I'm not sure exactly since it will vary from person to person, but probably the first three or so will be the major gains there. You will see some hypertrophy as well but not as much once the neuro gains taper off. You will know when you've lost the neuro gains because your strength gains will dry up rather quickly and you will start to hit plateaus. This is the indication that you are past those initial CNS gains and that you will have to fight for hypertrophy, which is much slower to gain.
Sorry, I'm not really good at guessing body fat from photos but there are some who do a good job at it and they might chime in.
The major CNS programming will last the first three what? weeks? months? Does that mean that it is essentially a waste of time to run a hypertrophy oriented program (such as All Pro's) during this time period when the CNS is being reprogrammed, as opposed to running a strength oriented program (such as Starting Strength)?
It depends really. Novice programs take advantage of the CNS adaptation and still add some decent muscle. It's not like you won't put on muscle at all while you are maxing out CNS efficiencies, it just won't be as easy as once those neurological gains are reduced. I'm not familiar with All Pro but I would work on strength before body building since it helps to condition you body while building strength. Don't forget that strength and gains are related.
However, the choice is based on your goals so you might want to jump right into All Pro but if you aren't seeing gains you want remember that you can always go to a strength program and then back to building. It's not like it's a one way trip.
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I realize it's only been like 2 days- but don't over think it- it's lifting not brain surgery- there is some trial and error- and you have to really REALLY release yourself to the nothing that YOU control this process- you have to TRUST the process- but you're in control of it- but it's like steering a boat- you can't be micromanaging the rudders- you have to stand at the helm- point the ship in the direction and go.
Don't over think it.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
It depends really. Novice programs take advantage of the CNS adaptation and still add some decent muscle. It's not like you won't put on muscle at all while you are maxing out CNS efficiencies, it just won't be as easy as once those neurological gains are reduced. I'm not familiar with All Pro but I would work on strength before body building since it helps to condition you body while building strength. Don't forget that strength and gains are related.
However, the choice is based on your goals so you might want to jump right into All Pro but if you aren't seeing gains you want remember that you can always go to a strength program and then back to building. It's not like it's a one way trip.
Okay, can you clarify something for me please. Is it that your muscle gains (hypertrophy) will be better before or after your CNS has fully adapted?I realize it's only been like 2 days- but don't over think it- it's lifting not brain surgery- there is some trial and error- and you have to really REALLY release yourself to the nothing that YOU control this process- you have to TRUST the process- but you're in control of it- but it's like steering a boat- you can't be micromanaging the rudders- you have to stand at the helm- point the ship in the direction and go.
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Don't over think it.
I'll try to put myself fully into this process, and I realize that I can't micromanage everything. I guess it's just that I really want to ensure that I do this properly and thus want to ensure that I do everything to that I actually can control to the best of my abilities.
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^ bro you are overthinking it...eat, lift, hit calorie/macro/micro goals...repeat and adjust as necessary0
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So, I've decided to start the All Pro program this week after testing my 10RM last week and everything. I'm going to just jump into it but I'm finding it hard to get enough protein in. Can anyone recommend some advice with regards to this please?
I made that topic some time after this one. This post was made to ask if one can gain muscle while on a deficit (although I've decided to not go the deficit route), while that post was asking if I was even ready to bulk at all, and was created after I was only able to solicit one response with regards to my BF% (at the time) on this, the weight gain forum (I also figured that my thread title had nothing to do with BF% at all, thus the veterans at estimating BF% [referenced by Wheelhouse15] might not have been inclined to read this thread. So I decided to make a thread that specifically targeted that group [and in a more relevant forum] in an attempt to garner more estimations and thus make a more informed decision as to whether I should bulk or not).0 -
I think in general, it is difficult to gain muscle mass during a caloric deficit but everyone is different. For example, I have been lifting for a while and went through a dirty bulk phase and gained about 5 lbs of muscle over a year period and then just went into a cut phase and gained 5 lbs more muscle in three months while in a serious caloric deficit but I was pumping in a good amount of protein. All of this was confirmed by a complete medical body scan prior to my program and about three months in. I plan on getting another scan again in about another month to see if I will continue to gain, level out or start to lose muscle at which point I'll probably start eating maintenance or slightly below. So, it can be done, just not everyone can do it and it requires a lot of attention to your diet and program.0
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I think in general, it is difficult to gain muscle mass during a caloric deficit but everyone is different. For example, I have been lifting for a while and went through a dirty bulk phase and gained about 5 lbs of muscle over a year period and then just went into a cut phase and gained 5 lbs more muscle in three months while in a serious caloric deficit but I was pumping in a good amount of protein. All of this was confirmed by a complete medical body scan prior to my program and about three months in. I plan on getting another scan again in about another month to see if I will continue to gain, level out or start to lose muscle at which point I'll probably start eating maintenance or slightly below. So, it can be done, just not everyone can do it and it requires a lot of attention to your diet and program.
Great work, congrats on the serious gains!0 -
I think in general, it is difficult to gain muscle mass during a caloric deficit but everyone is different. For example, I have been lifting for a while and went through a dirty bulk phase and gained about 5 lbs of muscle over a year period and then just went into a cut phase and gained 5 lbs more muscle in three months while in a serious caloric deficit but I was pumping in a good amount of protein. All of this was confirmed by a complete medical body scan prior to my program and about three months in. I plan on getting another scan again in about another month to see if I will continue to gain, level out or start to lose muscle at which point I'll probably start eating maintenance or slightly below. So, it can be done, just not everyone can do it and it requires a lot of attention to your diet and program.
That sounds amazing, did you lift with a strength or hypertrophy oriented program? Also, approximately how much protein are you talking about, because at this point in time I don't even know how to get 150 g of protein in on a daily basis. Also, how big a deficit were you on (i.e. how many pounds were you expected to lose each week)? What kind of center does one have to visit to get these types of scans done?0
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