building muscle whilst slimming down
Pelamblue
Posts: 177 Member
Hi there I'm new to all this but decided it was time I had in front of me what I really do eat .
I do as much weight training as I possibly can, being the father of a 8 month old little girl does restrict me to a degree but my wife is fantastic and lets me have my gym time. My goal is to build muscle and loose my little pot belly. I don't do that much CV work with regards to running, cycling, etc but instead 'superset' my weight sessions to really get my blood pumping.
I feel this is better for me personally as I have a low attention span, and it seems to be working.
I do as much weight training as I possibly can, being the father of a 8 month old little girl does restrict me to a degree but my wife is fantastic and lets me have my gym time. My goal is to build muscle and loose my little pot belly. I don't do that much CV work with regards to running, cycling, etc but instead 'superset' my weight sessions to really get my blood pumping.
I feel this is better for me personally as I have a low attention span, and it seems to be working.
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Replies
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A couple of basis physics rules come into play here.
1. Fat loss requires a calorie deficit
2. Muscle mass gain requires a calorie surplus
Lifting while in a calorie deficit is done to maintain muscle mass and will add a touch of strength increase to those that have not lifted before by increasing muscle efficiency. aerobic workouts are done to burn calories and increase stamina and maintain fitness.0 -
I have a decent amount of lean muscle, at the moment, I just want to expose it. There is argument that calorie counting can be the wrong thing to do as you can become consumed (excuse the pun) with how much you are eating and not what your eating. You have to get your macro's correct to have positive effect. I am trying to consume around 40% Carbs, 40% protien,and 20% fat and it seems to be working... to a degree0
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Exposing it is about fat loss. Fat loss is about calorie deficits and high intensity workouts.There is argument that calorie counting can be the wrong thing to do as you can become consumed (excuse the pun) with how much you are eating and not what your eating. You have to get your macro's correct to have positive effect.
This is wrong, or at the very least, VERY misleading.
You need a calorie deficit, period. Some people don't need to count cals to do that. Most do. Whether or not you become consumed is on you and it's not a function of calorie counting... so it's not the calorie counting that fails, it's the individual. And how much you eat is far more important than what you eat, assuming a reasonably balanced diet.
Don't overcomplicate it - start with the basics... a reasonable calorie intake, decent macros, and good workouts.0 -
You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
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Take a look at my diet if you have 5 minutes and could you tell me if I'm on the right track ?.
At the moment I feel i'm eating good, if I eat less I just feel tired and weak in my weight sessions0 -
I have a decent amount of lean muscle, at the moment, I just want to expose it. There is argument that calorie counting can be the wrong thing to do as you can become consumed (excuse the pun) with how much you are eating and not what your eating. You have to get your macro's correct to have positive effect. I am trying to consume around 40% Carbs, 40% protien,and 20% fat and it seems to be working... to a degree
Exposing the muscle will denote caloric deficit, so from a weight loss perspective, the only thing that really matters is calories. Your macro % mean nothing in regards to weightloss as those macro %s are the same (yes, the grams will be different, but that is not what you stated). If you maintain at 3000 calories, and eat 2000 calories, you will lose weight. If you eat 4000 calories, you gain weight on. Did not matter what the macro % split was for those calories. Macros come into play to coordinate your caloric intake to offer you enough protein, carbs, and fats WITHIN your caloric goal for optimal body composition (so that you maintain more muscle, lose more fat, have enough energy, keep hormones in check, etc...).0 -
mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?0 -
Just to add, although it may seem I'm new to all this, I'm actually not. I was in the forces so never really looked into all this side of things. I am now however because I want to get it correct and loose the bit of fat I have.
All help greatly appreciated
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mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?
At your current intake of calories for past week or two, what has your weightloss averaged per week? And if no loss, was it the same or did it go up?
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Scooby Workshop: http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/. You'll figure out your BMR, TDEE and I'd suggest a 15% deficit. Figure out how active you are (including activity outside of just exercise) and that will give you the level to use. For example, I lift 3x40 minutes, play field hockey for a minimum of 2-1/2 hours and I walk the dog every day for 20-30 minutes and am generally active regularly - that puts me at the 5-7 hour per week level.0
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it stayed exactly the same. 104Kgmustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?
At your current intake of calories for past week or two, what has your weightloss averaged per week? And if no loss, was it the same or did it go up?
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it stayed exactly the same. 104Kgmustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?
At your current intake of calories for past week or two, what has your weightloss averaged per week? And if no loss, was it the same or did it go up?
Then you are eating at basically maintenance (less any water retention from lifting).
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mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1080242/a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants/p1
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I've just be to that website.. Many thanks that's helped clear things up with regards to calorie intakemymodernbabylon wrote: »Scooby Workshop: http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/. You'll figure out your BMR, TDEE and I'd suggest a 15% deficit. Figure out how active you are (including activity outside of just exercise) and that will give you the level to use. For example, I lift 3x40 minutes, play field hockey for a minimum of 2-1/2 hours and I walk the dog every day for 20-30 minutes and am generally active regularly - that puts me at the 5-7 hour per week level.
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You can't gain muscle while in a calorie deficit, which is necessary to lose fat. Strength training and consuming sufficient protein will help retain muscle mass, so you don't lose muscle along with fat while maintaining a calorie deficit.
In terms of wanting to know how many calories to consume, you will need to figure out your BMR and calories burned from normal daily activity. If you eat more calories than you burn in a day, you will gain weight, less and you will lose weight. A pound of stored fat is equal to about 3500 calories, so a deficit of 3500 calories per week will result in a weight loss of one lb per week. This is a good calculator, in my opinion, for figuring out calorie requirements: http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html0 -
it stayed exactly the same. 104Kgmustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?
At your current intake of calories for past week or two, what has your weightloss averaged per week? And if no loss, was it the same or did it go up?
Then you are eating at basically maintenance (less any water retention from lifting).
Agree. You will need to drop your calories some to lose weight. How many calories will be up to you, but try to keep weightloss in the .5-1% bodyweight per week average range. I also notice that even though you don't eat at your protein goal, your goal setting is really high. 1g/lb of bodyweight is more than adequate, so you might want to tweak your goal settings to adjust. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets/p1
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it stayed exactly the same. 104Kgmustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?
At your current intake of calories for past week or two, what has your weightloss averaged per week? And if no loss, was it the same or did it go up?
Then you are eating at basically maintenance (less any water retention from lifting).
Agree. You will need to drop your calories some to lose weight. How many calories will be up to you, but try to keep weightloss in the .5-1% bodyweight per week average range. I also notice that even though you don't eat at your protein goal, your goal setting is really high. 1g/lb of bodyweight is more than adequate, so you might want to tweak your goal settings to adjust. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets/p1
I took your advise. It says I should be consuming 171g of protein, but then my fat intake shoots up to 30% ???
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it stayed exactly the same. 104Kgmustgetmuscles1 wrote: »You are going to need to pick a good program also. Sounds like you are just making it up as you go. Good way to spin your wheels unless you have some experience in program design. Beginners can see results with almost anything they do but this will fade after a few months.
Eat at maintenance or below to reduce body fat. If you dont want to count calories thats fine but you still have to be in a deficit. The best way to do that is with actual math. You could guess or estimate but you might not be in a deficit, might be in too big of one or not meet your macros.
Some people seem to think counting calories is bad for some reason. Because they heard it on the internet one time but they think counting macros is fine. It is exactly the same thing.
So how do I work out what my calorie intake should be ?
At your current intake of calories for past week or two, what has your weightloss averaged per week? And if no loss, was it the same or did it go up?
Then you are eating at basically maintenance (less any water retention from lifting).
Agree. You will need to drop your calories some to lose weight. How many calories will be up to you, but try to keep weightloss in the .5-1% bodyweight per week average range. I also notice that even though you don't eat at your protein goal, your goal setting is really high. 1g/lb of bodyweight is more than adequate, so you might want to tweak your goal settings to adjust. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets/p1
I took your advise. It says I should be consuming 171g of protein, but then my fat intake shoots up to 30% ???
These are not hard numbers by any means, these are just guidelines and if you feel you need to increase your protein a tad, that's fine. Just realize, that protein is the only macro your body does not have a reserve for (unless you want to count muscle as reserve, and who in their right mind would want to). And when you up protein, you take way from the others. So try to keep protein pretty consistent. You can play around with carbs and fat settings week by week on how you feel. Remember, it's overall calories that will dictate weightloss, not because you ate higher fat% this week (thus lowering carb%). Both are needed for different things. It might take you a few weeks to dial in better your tolerance for each to your body... (i.e...if you feel hungry all the time or you are having some hormonal issues, up your fat%. If you feel your workouts suffer due to low energy, up the carb%).
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Yes, you can gain muscle (strength and mass) while you lose fat. You won’t be optimizing either one of these, but you can do both at the same time. The trick is to really work on your eating and make sure your macros support what you’re doing. That isn’t easy and is slightly different for each person.
In general, you need to lift heavy. I’d stop the super sets and focus on full-body workouts. Heavy, moderate to low reps (5), compound movements (squat, deadlift, rows/pull ups, bench press, overhead press). Get a good rest between sets and really push yourself to go as heavy as you can. Do this two to three times per week based on how well you recovery.
You need to eat well. Fuel and building materials. So, get enough fat and carbs to stay energized throughout your lifting sessions. And make sure you’re getting enough protein to build muscle. You can tweak this to a point where your total calorie intake is at a deficit (I target 200 - 300 calories below when I’m tracking). You may also want to look at the timing of your meals (again thinking of food as a fuel) to maximize your energy during workouts.
If you want to incorporate any cardio on the off days, I’d just do some walking or light biking. This won’t be catabolic (muscle damaging) and will let you burn a little fat (especially if done in a fasted state, like after you wake and before you eat breakfast). If you find your fat loss plateau, you can mix in a HIIT session now and then to spike your metabolism, but don’t go whole hog or you’ll start compromising muscle gains.
Beyond that, drink plenty of water and get plenty of sleep.
The heavy lifting should help you increase your testosterone, which will put you in an anabolic state (building muscle mass/strength). Because you have adequate protein and you’re getting good rest, the stimulus will add muscle. The slight deficit in calories will force your body to release fat stores to make up the difference. Despite what people tell you, your body wants to use fat first and only goes to muscle when the deficit is too high (starving mode).
Enjoy!0 -
herrspoons wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Yes, you can gain muscle (strength and mass) while you lose fat. You won’t be optimizing either one of these, but you can do both at the same time. The trick is to really work on your eating and make sure your macros support what you’re doing. That isn’t easy and is slightly different for each person.
I'd argue that, unless you're very lean already or obese and training naïve, it's an incredibly inefficient way of going about things, and that better results will be yielded from focusing on one goal at the expense of the other.
As I said, it isn’t the optimal way, but it can be done. Most bodybuilders choose to bulk and cut because it gets them mass faster. If he’s providing appropriate stimulus, protein and rest/recovery, he will gain strength and mass. The muscles aren’t going to refuse to adapt just because he’s running 200 calories short. He might have energy/fatigue to manage, which is why meal timing can be important.0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Yes, you can gain muscle (strength and mass) while you lose fat. You won’t be optimizing either one of these, but you can do both at the same time. The trick is to really work on your eating and make sure your macros support what you’re doing. That isn’t easy and is slightly different for each person.
I'd argue that, unless you're very lean already or obese and training naïve, it's an incredibly inefficient way of going about things, and that better results will be yielded from focusing on one goal at the expense of the other.
As I said, it isn’t the optimal way, but it can be done. Most bodybuilders choose to bulk and cut because it gets them mass faster. If he’s providing appropriate stimulus, protein and rest/recovery, he will gain strength and mass. The muscles aren’t going to refuse to adapt just because he’s running 200 calories short. He might have energy/fatigue to manage, which is why meal timing can be important.
Don't agree. You are correct that the muscle's are going to refuse to adapt as long as you are providing increased stimuli; however utilizing existing muscle better and increasing their mass are two different things. In a deficit, you are already handicapping the body by not providing it enough energy to use to do something that is costly to the body (it's trying to do what it can with what you have with the deficit already). Plus, when you are in a deficit, you are shifting your hormonal profile to one that is generally catabolic, not anabolic. So in a caloric deficit, can you build muscle...sure, but you will also lose some as its a ever ongoing process. It's the overall net result that will be close to 0 to very little lost if you are doing it right (again, after newbie gains are done). Research Eric Helms on the matter. I know he has discussed this some.
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So what you are both saying if I understand this correctly is to train heavy to gain, but at the expense of some muscle loss cut the calories to loose the weight??
But the way very interesting and incietful in what you are both sayino... Thankyou
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I’ve done quite a bit of research on the matter, applied it to my own training (successfully) and seen it work on others. We’re not talking about major deficit, but rather 200 - 300 calories per day on average. The heavy lifting increases active testosterone (especially in men) and having adequate fuel for the lifting sessions and adequate protein for the muscle repair/building and there is no reason for the body to go into a catabolic state. The fat burning is going to occur on the low intensity cardio and rest days when the slight deficit allows for moderate fat usage.
This is not an optimized model for either fat loss or muscle gain, but a compromise approach that allows for a moderate amount of each. The thing about newbie gains is that it takes a while to lose that newbieness. It could be 9 months to a year before he sees a plateau and will have to adjust his eating and/or training.
In either case, assume you’re right. The lifting will help him hold on to muscle while losing some fat (assuming a modest deficit). Beyond lifting heavy, eating good macros at a slight deficit and getting plenty of rest, is there anything you’d add or change? I believe he can accomplish both if he stays committed and disciplined in his training and fueling.0 -
Y'know threads like these are why I keep coming back to these forums - thanks you all for sharing your info.
So using the same info - you could build muscle eating at maintenance or slightly over, once you reach your goal weight?0 -
To the above... yes you can.0
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Interesting - I have certainly gained strength over the last year lifting while in a defecit, but I haven't gained any muscle, that I can measure anyway. Looking forward to trying it when I get the last 8-10 lbs shed.0
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Interesting - I have certainly gained strength over the last year lifting while in a defecit, but I haven't gained any muscle, that I can measure anyway. Looking forward to trying it when I get the last 8-10 lbs shed.
What is your average daily deficit? What is you protein intake? And what is your lifting program?0 -
329cal - 20-25% - NROL0
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329 cals might be too much of a deficit to gain muscle (how much weight are you losing per week?).
The protein seems about right, but you might get better gains at 25 - 30%.
NROL is a good program, and if you’re seeing strength gains, you definitely could get some additional mass.
You can tweak these things now to see how it goes, or you can focus on the loss, get that 8 - 10 lbs down and then hit the hypertrophy lifting hard on a maintenance or slightly over. My response to the OP was that you can do both, it just isn’t optimized to one or the other. You may be close enough to the fat loss goal that you can optimize fat loss then switch to a bulking phase.0 -
Appreciate it - I'm 170-72 right now and want to get it down to 165. Losing about 1/2 per week on average - of course Dec was a wash because of the holidays. My mfp protein goal is 140ish and most days I make 130. Usually miss it on the weekend - probably missing the whey shake I have at work M-F. I'm just about finished the Strength 1 portion so perhaps my weight goal and finishing the program will coincide and I can go back and do hypertrophy.0
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