The cost of getting lean: Is it really worth the trade-off?
MireyGal76
Posts: 7,334 Member
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/cost-of-getting-lean?
I read the above article, and found that (in general) it irritated me. I figured I'd post it here to get some dialogue going.
I think that there is some good stuff in here, but I also think that there's some really inaccurate info relationing to what a lifestyle needs to be like for people who want to be leaner.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think from all areas of the weight loss / body fat spectrum.
I read the above article, and found that (in general) it irritated me. I figured I'd post it here to get some dialogue going.
I think that there is some good stuff in here, but I also think that there's some really inaccurate info relationing to what a lifestyle needs to be like for people who want to be leaner.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think from all areas of the weight loss / body fat spectrum.
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I thought it was a pretty good article. At least most of what it said has been true in my own personal experience. The best takeaway from the article is this, "Figure out your goals and priorities.". Once somebody has done that and gotten educated on the fitness process everything else falls into place.0
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The comments about the effort required to maintain sleep are very odd.0
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I thought it was fairly realistic....but then again, I've never put the work in for 6 pack abs either, and being at 16% body fat doesn't surprise me when I read what it takes, because that's what I do for the most part \m/0
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I actually liked it (admittedly I skimmed since it is super long so not saying every single thing was dead on). In general, it seemed to be pretty appropriate and I liked that it did not talk in absolutes saying you will PROBABLY need to eat less junk as apposed to the typical "you can never eat junk food again" type statements you usually see.
The only thing I saw that did bother me was the bit about trying to get super lean/fit means "So forget having a sex life, social life, parenthood, school, and probably a regular job" because I don't think thats necessarily true or fair. Maybe for some people it turns out that way but I see all sorts of people on here who have met some really strenuous goals while still being a parent and holding a job and having a seemingly normal life (admittedly you never know what goes on behind closed doors but I can't imagine they are all putting on a false persona). I think it comes down to time management and prioritizing well.
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I agree with the general premise that the leaner one gets, the more difficult it becomes to keep getting there. But I disagree with some of there premise about getting there. I'm pretty lean, flexed with good lighting, you can readily see good abs. In general not flexed I've got a little bit of definition. Honestly it doesn't feel like i do much work to stay here. Do I know I'd need to tighten up to keep going, yes. Do I think I need to go to the extreme they make it seem like is required...no. I enjoy where I am. I feel good, look good and train hard. I eat well and never feel guilty or deprived.0
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I don't think the article says enough about the health risks of very low body fat. Especially (I think) for women. (I'm not a man, so I'm less versed on that topic.
) Otherwise, it seemed largely accurate. I think the two myths it addresses at the beginning are the most noteworthy part: on Black Friday last year I turned on a "Fitness Blender HIIT and abs workout" to do with my sisters (neither of whom workout regularly). We were about ten minutes in and my older sister was definitely feeling it. "Okay, Thanksgiving is gone!" she said, meaning she surely MUST have burned through her thanksgiving meal by now. I didn't say anything, but the Fitness Blender calorie burn estimate for that workout is about 300-500 calories (for the whole 45 minutes, depending on your weight, effort, etc., obviously). I think this is an example of myth one, that with a few small changes, we can get big results. It was also a reminder to me about how perceived effort =/= actual burn, and how much easier it is to eat a lot of food than it is to burn it off, especially if you don't educate yourself about calorie counts and approximate burns. 0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Getting lean and staying there is a lot harder than people think. Given that I live in a small country with crap weather, the effort involved for the two weeks where you can take your t-shirt off just isn't worth it.
^This. The body isn't meant to stay at ultra-lean levels, and at some point, it becomes detrimental to one's health (both physically and mentally). Unless it is your job, being 5% or below year round doesn't make sense. I also disagree with the absolutes in the article about eating out, social life etc. There is no need to bring tupperware everywhere you go to achieve low bf levels, nor is it necessary to workout 2-3 times per day, everyday.0 -
MireyGal76 wrote: »http://www.precisionnutrition.com/cost-of-getting-lean?
I read the above article, and found that (in general) it irritated me. I figured I'd post it here to get some dialogue going.
I think that there is some good stuff in here, but I also think that there's some really inaccurate info relationing to what a lifestyle needs to be like for people who want to be leaner.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think from all areas of the weight loss / body fat spectrum.
I agree with you to a point. I watch people here put in a lot of effort...and get lean but I also watch people here and irl put in medium effort and get lean and stay lean. THis article makes it sound like it's a full time job when it's not for all...
some people put in some effort and get lean (you for example) and it doesn't seem that hard for you from the outside looking in..
Others like me put in medium effort and we start to get lean then it requires max effort and we don't want to...
lifestyle choices don't have to be impacted as much as the article insinuated tho...my sister is very lean and can get a six pack with what I call medium effort and she still has lots of fun with friends, family etc.
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It sounds fairly reasonable and pretty accurate to my experience with getting to athletic levels, and also with my experience of not getting even leaner. It's also nice that they don't try to tell people "you, too can have sixpack abs."
The one thing they seemed to leave out or gloss over is that at any time you can always just change your mind and set a new course. For example once you get to the highest healthy category, your habits may have become such that it's easy to get even leaner.
Also, I get the feeling they do not want anyone to count calories until they're trying to get super lean, and instead try to aim for eating styles that will have normal people not overeating.
And yeah the sleep thing is weird. Why the hell would you recommend someone getting less than 7 hours of sleep?0 -
It seems generally accurate. Personal choice on where you want to be, and what you have to do to achieve the goal you set for your self. There are a lot of factors that consider in to whether or not you can achieve a certain look, or even if you would want to. At 63, all I really want is to be healthier, and perhaps extend my life a bit. I have very little concern about being as lean as I possibly could be, but, if I were 40 years younger, that might be a consideration. Each person's goals may be different, so it is helpful to realize what it would take to achieve your goals. Definitely, not the worst article I have read, and may be helpful to some people. It kind of reinforces, for me, that what I am doing for my goals is pretty much on track.0
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MireyGal76 wrote: »http://www.precisionnutrition.com/cost-of-getting-lean?
I read the above article, and found that (in general) it irritated me. I figured I'd post it here to get some dialogue going.
I think that there is some good stuff in here, but I also think that there's some really inaccurate info relationing to what a lifestyle needs to be like for people who want to be leaner.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think from all areas of the weight loss / body fat spectrum.
I agree with you to a point. I watch people here put in a lot of effort...and get lean but I also watch people here and irl put in medium effort and get lean and stay lean. THis article makes it sound like it's a full time job when it's not for all...
some people put in some effort and get lean (you for example) and it doesn't seem that hard for you from the outside looking in..
Others like me put in medium effort and we start to get lean then it requires max effort and we don't want to...
lifestyle choices don't have to be impacted as much as the article insinuated tho...my sister is very lean and can get a six pack with what I call medium effort and she still has lots of fun with friends, family etc.
There is a pretty wide scale difference between maintaining low single digits and low teens though (in men). Same goes for women, although obviously higher on the bf side of things.0 -
I was really driven to get to a healthy BF% but once I achieved that I knew I just don't have the motivation to make the compromises required for me to get very lean. If I could make a wish and have a six pack that would be great. If only it worked that way!
But I want to enjoy my food, enjoy social occasions that involve food and I really don't enjoy "dieting" or cutting.
I am driven to improve my cycling and strength so that's where my focus goes. As my performance in those areas improves then my body will be adapting as well and I will get a little leaner. My goals for the year are all about performance and not weight or body composition.
I'm sure the vanity aspects would have been more important to me when I was single and in my 20's but as I'm married and in my 50's I'm invisible anyway so being happy in my own skin is good enough.
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dieselbyte wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Getting lean and staying there is a lot harder than people think. Given that I live in a small country with crap weather, the effort involved for the two weeks where you can take your t-shirt off just isn't worth it.
^This. The body isn't meant to stay at ultra-lean levels, and at some point, it becomes detrimental to one's health (both physically and mentally). Unless it is your job, being 5% or below year round doesn't make sense. I also disagree with the absolutes in the article about eating out, social life etc. There is no need to bring tupperware everywhere you go to achieve low bf levels, nor is it necessary to workout 2-3 times per day, everyday.
^ Essentially my feelings on the article.0 -
I think I struggle with the statements surrounding the WOMEN 16-19% category (which is where I think I fall into).
In particular - Tradeoffs:
- may struggle in social situations, especially those involving food
- May not have time for social opportunities outside of exercise
- May have to give up other hobbies and interests outside of fitness
And in the WOMEN <16%:
The only listed benefit is - May feel pride at achieving an athletic goal
but the tradeoffs are:
- will have difficulty socializing in most typical situations where food is involved
- may lose out of fun events with family and friends
- big time commitment to measure and weigh and track all foods
- hyper focus on diet and exercise may contribute to disordered eating
- time require for exercise. May crowd out all other pursuits and interests.
MY COMMENTS:
These statements make it seem like in order to be lean, you need to give up your entire life and be just a gym junkie. And it seems like it promotes others into thinking that if you are lean, that MUST be what your life is like.
But it's not.
Yes, I have visible abs, and visible muscles, and lower body fat. But I am also an active mom, who eats WELL at family gatherings (and most other times). I enjoy probably way too many processed foods, and eat a fair bit of junk food too. I do NOT spend my life in the gym. Maybe I am the exception to the rule, and maybe I'm blessed with some sort of crazy genetics, but it feels like it's implying to others that my body is the only thing I care about.
I want people to know that, in my case, I am able to be a good mother, and have a healthy relationship with food. I do not exercise 45-60 minutes daily, but I am very active with my kids.
I guess I just don't think it's being balanced enough to those with lower body fats.0 -
Also in the Do More / Do less sections... again it talks about this rigid requirement for eating, crazy exercise, and sleep... you can't eat to satisfaction levels, you have to be exact about your proteins and all that stuff, you need to exercise at least an hour a day...
People need to know that maybe some people need to do that to achieve visible abs, or a lean look... but not everybody.
I don't want people to look at me and go... oh well... she must sacrifice her quality time with her family and kids, and be a disordered eater in order to have a body like that... because really, that's bulldung.0 -
I think precision nutrition tends to over-generalize things sometimes to a fault. There's some individual snippets of information that I don't necessarily agree with but with most fitness related articles there are things that I don't necessarily agree with.
Evaluating it in it's entirety I think it's a reasonable article.
The general idea that it gets more difficult the leaner you get I think is very accurate. That's the basic premise that I think they are trying to get at. And as you get leaner and leaner you have to basically manage variables more tightly. Hunger goes up (I disagree with their statements about cravings although it's possible that they're indirectly attacking this from an insulin sensitivity standpoint -- no idea though really), energy expenditure has a tendency to go downwards, leptin levels decrease which stimulates both hunger and possible metabolic decreases, and you basically have the deck stacked against you the leaner you get.
So consequently the behaviors you are required to maintain get progressively more demanding, and it's a trade-off that isn't worth it to many people and nor should it be.
Genetics also play a big role here in terms of how challenging it may be from person to person.
For example I would speculate that someone with a lower setpoint would probably not feel like they are suffering as badly when maintaining a relatively low body-fat percentage in comparison to someone going from obese to lean.
I'm curious what you found incorrect?0 -
I just skimmed it but in general I didn't think it was too bad. If you are a healthy weight going further then that to look a certain way is really up to you and one must realize that sometimes genetics is perhaps going to make it nearly impossible. Like for me a thigh gap would be an exercize in shear obession and likely completely futile. To some extent you have to do the best with the body you have been given. That's not to say that going for a certain look or level of fitness is wrong but it's also not wrong to just be happy being healthy. Also, for women especially, we must make sure that our body fat does not go so low that it effects our fertility. Even if you do not want children fertility issues can be the first red flag to health problems and things being out of balance.0
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LolBroScience wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »http://www.precisionnutrition.com/cost-of-getting-lean?
I read the above article, and found that (in general) it irritated me. I figured I'd post it here to get some dialogue going.
I think that there is some good stuff in here, but I also think that there's some really inaccurate info relationing to what a lifestyle needs to be like for people who want to be leaner.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think from all areas of the weight loss / body fat spectrum.
I agree with you to a point. I watch people here put in a lot of effort...and get lean but I also watch people here and irl put in medium effort and get lean and stay lean. THis article makes it sound like it's a full time job when it's not for all...
some people put in some effort and get lean (you for example) and it doesn't seem that hard for you from the outside looking in..
Others like me put in medium effort and we start to get lean then it requires max effort and we don't want to...
lifestyle choices don't have to be impacted as much as the article insinuated tho...my sister is very lean and can get a six pack with what I call medium effort and she still has lots of fun with friends, family etc.
There is a pretty wide scale difference between maintaining low single digits and low teens though (in men). Same goes for women, although obviously higher on the bf side of things.
Definitely and there's also going to be a pretty hefty variance from person to person in terms of how you feel maintaining a given level of leanness.
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MireyGal76 wrote: »Also in the Do More / Do less sections... again it talks about this rigid requirement for eating, crazy exercise, and sleep... you can't eat to satisfaction levels, you have to be exact about your proteins and all that stuff, you need to exercise at least an hour a day...
People need to know that maybe some people need to do that to achieve visible abs, or a lean look... but not everybody.
I don't want people to look at me and go... oh well... she must sacrifice her quality time with her family and kids, and be a disordered eater in order to have a body like that... because really, that's bulldung.
That's really cool that you've found that balance, but most of the people I know who have extra low body fat do fit a lot of their descriptions for those trade offs. They spend hours planning meals, and checking supplements, and planning workouts, and never come out for a drink after work, and if they do come out for a drink they spend the whole time looking at the menu and frowning. If they do order food then the orders are hilariously fussy, asking for their food to be cooked without anything the restaurant usually uses, and asking for off-menu items in its place.
That doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them really focused- I admire their dedication, even if I couldn't do all that. Everyone is different I guess.0 -
Assuming the article is meant for a larger, general audience, I thought it was pretty good. I didn't like some of the absolutes, but the general point of it was good.
The whole trade-off thing is hard, because it will vary depending on the preferences/tendencies of the person. For example, some people's social life centers on consumption, which will be REALLY hard to balance with higher-level goals. Genetics will also come into play for many. For example, I've been in the low double-digits body fat, caliper tested as low as 10%, but was FAR from having visible abs because I carry all my fat in my stomach. So for me, to go from looking decent to looking good (at least what I consider decent and good) would require a level of dedication and consistency that I'm not sure I can/want to do based on other priorities in life. That tradeoff likely wouldn't be worth it for me.0 -
MireyGal76 wrote: »I think I struggle with the statements surrounding the WOMEN 16-19% category (which is where I think I fall into).
In particular - Tradeoffs:
- may struggle in social situations, especially those involving food
- May not have time for social opportunities outside of exercise
- May have to give up other hobbies and interests outside of fitness
And in the WOMEN <16%:
The only listed benefit is - May feel pride at achieving an athletic goal
but the tradeoffs are:
- will have difficulty socializing in most typical situations where food is involved
- may lose out of fun events with family and friends
- big time commitment to measure and weigh and track all foods
- hyper focus on diet and exercise may contribute to disordered eating
- time require for exercise. May crowd out all other pursuits and interests.
MY COMMENTS:
These statements make it seem like in order to be lean, you need to give up your entire life and be just a gym junkie. And it seems like it promotes others into thinking that if you are lean, that MUST be what your life is like.
But it's not.
Yes, I have visible abs, and visible muscles, and lower body fat. But I am also an active mom, who eats WELL at family gatherings (and most other times). I enjoy probably way too many processed foods, and eat a fair bit of junk food too. I do NOT spend my life in the gym. Maybe I am the exception to the rule, and maybe I'm blessed with some sort of crazy genetics, but it feels like it's implying to others that my body is the only thing I care about.
I want people to know that, in my case, I am able to be a good mother, and have a healthy relationship with food. I do not exercise 45-60 minutes daily, but I am very active with my kids.
I guess I just don't think it's being balanced enough to those with lower body fats.
I think your ability to maintain the level of body-fat that you currently maintain is very atypical and not representative of the what the vast majority of females would be capable of doing without significant restrictions on their food habits and social life.
And I don't say that in any way to take away from the hard work you have put in, and continue to put in on a regular basis.0 -
What's not mentioned in here is PED's. Yeah, I know they are trying to avoid discussion and that we'd all love to BELIEVE everyone on a Fitness magazine or cover is "clean", but that's more than likely NOT the case.
My 2 cents: staying lean for me when I competed was tough, especially socially. You can visibly see when water retention or even that small gain in fat blurred out your lines, so I abstained from a lot of hanging out with friends due to that fact that all they wanted to do was party (as all of us really want to do at some point in our lives). I did have to pay much more attention to what I consumed and the gym was practically my home. If people were looking for me, home wasn't the first place they checked. So yes, from experience and just based on how much difference there is in energy storage versus energy release by the body, it does take much more effort to stay lean, along with more planning and how your behavior may change (not in personality, but socially).
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Interesting article.
"The super-lean” stage is only a temporary stage, at least for people I know.
It is not sustainable.
I've known people entering (and briefly maintaining at this stage) for things like body building contests and pre-fight weigh ins (for wrestlers and fighters)
But these athletes don't intend to stay at this stage longer than necessary (the bodybuilding show or the weigh in) It is grueling physically *and* mentally.
I don't think it is a long term goal for most people. It shouldn't be, in my opinion.
Regarding the effort that it takes to stay at each stage: I disagree that there's a clear cut amount of effort that applies to everybody. For example, once I get into the lean stage, I can slack more than most people I know and stay at that level.
And 10 years ago, it took me virtually no effort at all to be at the lean stage. That was just where my body would naturally gravitate towards.
And I've had friend's that made much more efforts with eating and working out and were barely staying out of the overweight stage.
A good point that this article makes is that what is truly important is: What does the payoff mean to YOU?
To *me* there's no payoff that would be worth going into the super-lean stage.
For some athletes, like fighters, their life and livelihood depend on being at their peak physical shape. (To be able to recover etc...) And they workout for hours a day because that's their job.
It's not easy, but they do it anyway.
I am not willing to make all those sacrifices.
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MireyGal76 wrote: »I think I struggle with the statements surrounding the WOMEN 16-19% category (which is where I think I fall into).
In particular - Tradeoffs:
- may struggle in social situations, especially those involving food
- May not have time for social opportunities outside of exercise
- May have to give up other hobbies and interests outside of fitness
And in the WOMEN <16%:
The only listed benefit is - May feel pride at achieving an athletic goal
but the tradeoffs are:
- will have difficulty socializing in most typical situations where food is involved
- may lose out of fun events with family and friends
- big time commitment to measure and weigh and track all foods
- hyper focus on diet and exercise may contribute to disordered eating
- time require for exercise. May crowd out all other pursuits and interests.
MY COMMENTS:
These statements make it seem like in order to be lean, you need to give up your entire life and be just a gym junkie. And it seems like it promotes others into thinking that if you are lean, that MUST be what your life is like.
But it's not.
Yes, I have visible abs, and visible muscles, and lower body fat. But I am also an active mom, who eats WELL at family gatherings (and most other times). I enjoy probably way too many processed foods, and eat a fair bit of junk food too. I do NOT spend my life in the gym. Maybe I am the exception to the rule, and maybe I'm blessed with some sort of crazy genetics, but it feels like it's implying to others that my body is the only thing I care about.
I want people to know that, in my case, I am able to be a good mother, and have a healthy relationship with food. I do not exercise 45-60 minutes daily, but I am very active with my kids.
I guess I just don't think it's being balanced enough to those with lower body fats.
I think your ability to maintain the level of body-fat that you currently maintain is very atypical and not representative of the what the vast majority of females would be capable of doing without significant restrictions on their food habits and social life.
And I don't say that in any way to take away from the hard work you have put in, and continue to put in on a regular basis.
I think that maybe this is what I need to hear. Thank you. :flowerforyou:
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As far as the assumptions though, again that's really something I'd fault PN with as a whole and it's one of the bigger issues I take with their articles. They make too many matter-of-fact statements that don't seem to apply context.
Because of this they end up potentially saying some misleading stuff, IMO.0 -
LovelyIvy466 wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »Also in the Do More / Do less sections... again it talks about this rigid requirement for eating, crazy exercise, and sleep... you can't eat to satisfaction levels, you have to be exact about your proteins and all that stuff, you need to exercise at least an hour a day...
People need to know that maybe some people need to do that to achieve visible abs, or a lean look... but not everybody.
I don't want people to look at me and go... oh well... she must sacrifice her quality time with her family and kids, and be a disordered eater in order to have a body like that... because really, that's bulldung.
That's really cool that you've found that balance, but most of the people I know who have extra low body fat do fit a lot of their descriptions for those trade offs. They spend hours planning meals, and checking supplements, and planning workouts, and never come out for a drink after work, and if they do come out for a drink they spend the whole time looking at the menu and frowning. If they do order food then the orders are hilariously fussy, asking for their food to be cooked without anything the restaurant usually uses, and asking for off-menu items in its place.
That doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them really focused- I admire their dedication, even if I couldn't do all that. Everyone is different I guess.
I'm going to echo that, too. Having at one point been a "real" athlete and exceptionally fit, I also have to acknowledge that yeah, being that fit was pretty much a full time job and it impacted *every* aspect of my life.
Thought the article was pretty good, overall.
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What's not mentioned in here is PED's. Yeah, I know they are trying to avoid discussion and that we'd all love to BELIEVE everyone on a Fitness magazine or cover is "clean", but that's more than likely NOT the case.
My 2 cents: staying lean for me when I competed was tough, especially socially. You can visibly see when water retention or even that small gain in fat blurred out your lines, so I abstained from a lot of hanging out with friends due to that fact that all they wanted to do was party (as all of us really want to do at some point in our lives). I did have to pay much more attention to what I consumed and the gym was practically my home. If people were looking for me, home wasn't the first place they checked. So yes, from experience and just based on how much difference there is in energy storage versus energy release by the body, it does take much more effort to stay lean, along with more planning and how your behavior may change (not in personality, but socially).
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That's a great point regarding drugs.0 -
fwiw... I'm certainly not using any PEDs... unless coffee counts. LOL
Also.. I'd totally love to offer my body up for science, because I'd love to know what makes me so "unique". haha0 -
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