Stronglifts for Hypertrophy?
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I'm familiar with Lyle, I've read most of his stuff. Also, I've read pretty much every meta-analysis on lifting/hypertrophy that pubmed has, but it still has the limitations of not being aligned or consider all/the same factors. I will check those studies you linked and the discussions tomorrow. Thanks again.
I linked them as you said that you had not heard of Shoenfeld so you had not read his articles and studies - he has a few - Shoenfeld is pretty well known and considered one of the experts in the field of hypertrophy from an evidence based perspective. And I said in my post that there were limitations (which was really also a fyi for you as you had mentioned the studies you had read and seemed to be basing your conclusions on them) - as does Shoenfeld in his articles and studies - and the evidence and knowledge is constantly evolving, in this field it seems in particular. Its a confusing and interesting stage. Which sort of comes back to LolBro's comment - don't major in the minors.0 -
stronglift can def build size for beginners for sure, a lot more efficiently than other hypertrophy programs around...and thats how I gained my size initially.. for advanced lifters, better to stick with hypertrophy program within 10-15 rep range0
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@terizius knowing you're about the details, this is a great video to watch. Also, after watching go to his link. Long detailed articles about strength training. He uses science too
http://youtu.be/MeFXMX9Al8w 0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »My input : Lift heavy things over and over. Stop majoring in the minors (especially if you're not an intermediate to advanced lifter).
What about my shrugs/forearm curls/reverse forearm curl/preacher curl day? Then I finish it off with some calf raises. Is that the same?
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keithcw_the_first wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »My input : Lift heavy things over and over. Stop majoring in the minors (especially if you're not an intermediate to advanced lifter).
What about my shrugs/forearm curls/reverse forearm curl/preacher curl day? Then I finish it off with some calf raises. Is that the same?
The same in regards to what?0 -
That's a joke fail on my part.
I meant "Do these minor isolation exercises count as majoring in the minors?"
That's not actually part of my routine.0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »That's a joke fail on my part.
I meant "Do these minor isolation exercises count as majoring in the minors?"
That's not actually part of my routine.
Gotcha. I don't think isolations are useless at all, but I do think that many people put far too much emphasis on them when they should be focusing the majority of their efforts on the prime movers.0 -
Yes; certainly not useless. I do feel like I see people doing behind the back barbell forearm curls and moving the bar two inches, and I wonder if there is a better use of their time.0
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For me personally.....I try to do the best of both worlds.
One day out of the week, I will do an upper body heavy day.
So I pick a few compound type exercises for back, shoulders, chest......
Keep rep range in the 4 - 6 area, for about 4 - 5 sets.
Then during the week, I break out the muscle groups....
Do lighter weight, and higher reps....and more exercises....
So for example on back.
My heavy day will be weighted pull-ups, followed up by bent over barbell rows, then underhand grip lat pulls.
That's it.
During the week for back
I will do weighted pullups, but lighter weight, so only body weight + a max of 45lbs. 4 sets x 8 - 10 reps
Bent over barbell rows, again lighter weight, maybe just 135 lbs. 4 x 8 - 10 reps
Lat pull downs. 4 x 8 - 10
Seated cable rows. 4 x 10 - 15 with a squeeze and hold on the contraction
close grip lat pulls. 4 x 15 - 20 pretty light weight.
Take a look at sprinters legs vs the legs of marathon runners.0 -
@Sarauk2sf I pulled up Schoenfelds site today while having dinner to begin reading his work. I started at the bottom and interestingly, the article was about why bodybuilders are bigger than powerlifters. Essentially, they (Schoenfeld and Contreras) were discussing if strength or hypertrophy programs are better for those seeking hypertrophy. They state:
"Can we simultaneously train for both powerlifting and bodybuilding and thereby achieve a win/win situation? In other words, by incorporating a bit of both can you maximize strength and size?
The authors of this article believe that you can't."
They address volume and time under tension, but it seems quite clear from the article that of someone is bulking for the purpose of muscular hypertrophy, it is best to stick with a "hypertrophy" routine rather than a strength/powerlifting routine.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/why-bodybuilders-are-more-jacked-than-powerlifters0 -
This leads back to my original question. What would be the difference between two identical people with one performing a hypertrophy based program and the other a strength based program on the same number of surplus calories.. Lets say each gain 15 lbs over 3 months.
In theory, a hypertrophy program would see a greater % of weight gain go to muscles due to the fact that muscle size is increasing.
The strength program isn't going to be as effective as the hypertrophy program for muscle size, so where does the extra weight go?
Just thinking out loud here..0 -
@Sarauk2sf I pulled up Schoenfelds site today while having dinner to begin reading his work. I started at the bottom and interestingly, the article was about why bodybuilders are bigger than powerlifters. Essentially, they (Schoenfeld and Contreras) were discussing if strength or hypertrophy programs are better for those seeking hypertrophy. They state:
"Can we simultaneously train for both powerlifting and bodybuilding and thereby achieve a win/win situation? In other words, by incorporating a bit of both can you maximize strength and size?
The authors of this article believe that you can't."
They address volume and time under tension, but it seems quite clear from the article that of someone is bulking for the purpose of muscular hypertrophy, it is best to stick with a "hypertrophy" routine rather than a strength/powerlifting routine.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/why-bodybuilders-are-more-jacked-than-powerlifters
And one paragraph down from what you quoted.
Now in no way does this imply that you shouldn't periodize your routine and incorporate periods of heavier weight and lower rep ranges - quite the opposite - it's a highly beneficial strategy.
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^^Absolutely, I fully agree (and do it myself) but the question was Stronglifts for bulking.. Over and over again, Stronglifts is recommended for those who are new to bulking and want a program to start with. As I said, I've recommended it myself. I'm now questioning that advice if someone is bulking for hypertrophy (and who isn't..)0
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Its can be done aslong as progressive overload is involved
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^^Absolutely, I fully agree (and do it myself) but the question was Stronglifts for bulking.. Over and over again, Stronglifts is recommended for those who are new to bulking and want a program to start with. As I said, I've recommended it myself. I'm now questioning that advice if someone is bulking for hypertrophy (and who isn't..)
I realize that the original question was about bulking for stronglifts, but the conversation digressed along the way. Going back to my original post - if you are new to lifting, then it is a good program (with the some possible addition of a few specific assistance lifts) - we go back to the amount of stimulus you need for muscle gain. New lifters do not need much at all. If you are not new to lifting, then we get back to a mixed rep routine.
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This leads back to my original question. What would be the difference between two identical people with one performing a hypertrophy based program and the other a strength based program on the same number of surplus calories.. Lets say each gain 15 lbs over 3 months.
In theory, a hypertrophy program would see a greater % of weight gain go to muscles due to the fact that muscle size is increasing.
The strength program isn't going to be as effective as the hypertrophy program for muscle size, so where does the extra weight go?
Just thinking out loud here..
Making the (big) assumption that the muscle size is increasing more on the hyper program, then it would be fat. That obviously assumes the same calorie burn as well obviously (your caloric burn is likely higher on a hypertrophy routine).0 -
I am discussing this conversation with my wife now (who is doing Stronglifts). I made the point that even if its not the best program for hypertrophy, there are still numerous reasons to recommend it. Its very simple to perform and easy to remember (though there is a learning curve to get the lifts right). Its a pretty quick workout, at least until the weights get heavy. But, for bulking, even for a beginner, it would make more sense to change it to a 4 x 10 or something similar..0
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Making the (big) assumption that the muscle size is increasing more on the hyper program, then it would be fat. That obviously assumes the same calorie burn as well obviously (your caloric burn is likely higher on a hypertrophy routine).
Is it a big assumption? As Bret and Brad clearly point out in the article, bodybuilders are much better at building muscle than powerlifters due to the way they lift. And yes, everything equalized so that each are on the same caloric surplus...0 -
Making the (big) assumption that the muscle size is increasing more on the hyper program, then it would be fat. That obviously assumes the same calorie burn as well obviously (your caloric burn is likely higher on a hypertrophy routine).
Is it a big assumption? As Bret and Brad clearly point out in the article, bodybuilders are much better at building muscle than powerlifters due to the way they lift. And yes, everything equalized so that each are on the same caloric surplus...
Did you look at the study I linked earlier? You are talking parts of the article out of context.
And by big assumption - the main assumption being that the strength routine v the hyper are very different in terms of volume/poundage and progressive overload over the time.0 -
I am discussing this conversation with my wife now (who is doing Stronglifts). I made the point that even if its not the best program for hypertrophy, there are still numerous reasons to recommend it. Its very simple to perform and easy to remember (though there is a learning curve to get the lifts right). Its a pretty quick workout, at least until the weights get heavy. But, for bulking, even for a beginner, it would make more sense to change it to a 4 x 10 or something similar..
More sense in what way? For hypertrophy? I do not think it would make any appreciable difference. Neither would Lyle from the looks of it.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/beginning-weight-training-part-1.html/0
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