Bulking for old guys
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DeguelloTex
Posts: 6,658 Member
From the beginners' sticky:
"A much better plan, especially for first time bulkers, is to set a reasonable, moderate surplus and keep things simple. I prefer a surplus of 400-500 calories per day for males and 300-400 calories per day for females. I feel that is right about the efficiency sweet spot, where you are taking advantage of pretty much your maximum muscle gain rate while also minimizing fat gain as much as possible."
So you're talking about a pound a week here. I'm kind of doubting that, say, a 50+ guy is going to be putting on enough muscle to justify that kind of surplus. More like half a pound to a pound a month of muscle, from what I've read. So, best case in that scenario is three pounds of fat for each pound of muscle. Seems... harsh.
I was thinking of a much lower surplus... 250 a week, maybe less. Where am I going wrong and how can I find that sweet spot if, as is almost certainly going to be the case, I can't put on enough muscle to justify a 400-500 calorie a day surplus?
"A much better plan, especially for first time bulkers, is to set a reasonable, moderate surplus and keep things simple. I prefer a surplus of 400-500 calories per day for males and 300-400 calories per day for females. I feel that is right about the efficiency sweet spot, where you are taking advantage of pretty much your maximum muscle gain rate while also minimizing fat gain as much as possible."
So you're talking about a pound a week here. I'm kind of doubting that, say, a 50+ guy is going to be putting on enough muscle to justify that kind of surplus. More like half a pound to a pound a month of muscle, from what I've read. So, best case in that scenario is three pounds of fat for each pound of muscle. Seems... harsh.
I was thinking of a much lower surplus... 250 a week, maybe less. Where am I going wrong and how can I find that sweet spot if, as is almost certainly going to be the case, I can't put on enough muscle to justify a 400-500 calorie a day surplus?
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You have put your finger on one of the reasons it's even more crucial for us old farts to preserve as much lean mass as possible while dieting down.
It doesn't come back anywhere near as fast as it used to.
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Have a look at the website the stickie comes from. Waldo is a member on here and although not over 50 (I don't think anyway), he's not a teenager or young guy in his twenties.
The only real way you'd know is to try it, you might surprise yourself
edit: okay, just creeped his profile and it says 51. Go figure - bulking must knock off a good 10/15 years too!0 -
I will go on the record as saying that I will not be opposed in principle to having access to another couple hundred calories a day. I just want to be reasonably sure that they'll be useful.
I'm looking at potential workout day meals with a surplus because, even though I might not be quite there body fat-wise, yet, I'm in the area code if not the ZIP code and it's fun to window shop. How in the hell I ate enough over that to get so frickin' fat, I'm not sure. 400 surplus calories will put me at 3749 on workout days, if Excel can be believed.0 -
You'll be shocked with what your body does with the food, assuming you're training hard.0
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Could be. I would definitely be shocked if my body does the same thing with the food that a 20 year old's does, though.0
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I'm 30 and it's still shocking.0
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You are right to be concerned. Because at 50 you have a very different physiology than a younger guy. Not sure it even makes sense to go up a great deal. After all if you were to gain 5 pounds of lean tissue in the year the amount of extra calories would amount to few bites of Apple per day. I am not sure that the conventional wisdom as to bulking applies to older guys. I just don't think it's as easy for us to gain muscle. And it's definitely harder to drop fat.0
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30 was 40% of my life ago. You were 9 when I was 30. I probably feel like 30 about like you feel like 9. Probably less so, once you factor in all the totaled motorcycles and various other scars.keithcw_the_first wrote: »I'm 30 and it's still shocking.
I'm looking at 150. 250 max. It just doesn't make any sense to me to eat as if my body will respond the same way as one half its age, though I'm willing to be persuaded.galengentry wrote: »You are right to be concerned. Because at 50 you have a very different physiology than a younger guy. Not sure it even makes sense to go up a great deal.
I haven't had any trouble dropping fat, but I'm only down to about 20% BF, so that could change at any time.
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I really think you are letting your age limit you. If MFPs profiles are to be believed, you are the same age as the guy who wrote the info contained in the stickie.
I'm 40 this year and I can run rings round people (guys and girls) half my age, at work. Positive thinking goes a long way.
In saying that, no one is forcing you to try a 4/500 cal surplus - just see what works for you, if that's a 100 or 200 brilliant. You're maybe just having a moment today, but from what you've written in here, it really sounds like you're letting your perceived old age dictate your goals. Man, 51 is young!0 -
I'm not letting it dictate my goals. I'm letting it frame what's a realistic way to reach those goals.
It seems like you're making the case that a 51 year old's body takes advantage of a caloric surplus in the same way and to the same extent that a 20 year old's does, and I'm having a hard time reconciling that with testosterone levels and any number of other things.
Do you think that an average 51 year old man can put on muscle as quickly as an average 20-25 year old man, all other things being equal? If so, do you have any links or references that would support this idea? If not, why would a 51 year old man eat at the same caloric surplus as the 20-25 year old man?
I'm not saying anyone is forcing me to try a 400-500 calorie surplus. I'm asking for someone, anyone, to provide some evidence as to why it would make sense when I haven't read anything, anywhere that even implies that a 51 year old can add muscle at the same rate as someone younger and have read much that directly states it won't happen. If I can't add muscle at the same rate, eating at the same rate is nothing but a ticket to more fat, it seems to me. What's the argument to the contrary?0 -
I'll leave this here. Look at it as inspiration! I know I do.
http://www.goheavy.net/records/viewrecordset.aspx?recordsetguid=3615c5df-025c-4b37-8a99-8394242e6a210 -
I'm not clear what powerlifting has to do with caloric surplus and body fat percentages.
I guess I just can't make my question clear enough for people to get what I'm asking.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not clear what powerlifting has to do with caloric surplus and body fat percentages.
I guess I just can't make my question clear enough for people to get what I'm asking.
Try implementing the surplus at what you said at 250. Do this for a month or two and reassess your gains. If gains are there try adding another 100 and then another 100. Trial and error would allow you post back to us that us that are 45+ and over and reap the rewards. I am a woman (45+) and would like to read your blog about the "old guy's journey to muscle gains"...
And my husband is 56 years and can attest to the muscle gains at this surplus (actually he is in better shape and looks so much better than he did in 20's...seriously)... Just saying.. I do not have blog about it, but I do have his data..0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not letting it dictate my goals. I'm letting it frame what's a realistic way to reach those goals.
It seems like you're making the case that a 51 year old's body takes advantage of a caloric surplus in the same way and to the same extent that a 20 year old's does, and I'm having a hard time reconciling that with testosterone levels and any number of other things.
Do you think that an average 51 year old man can put on muscle as quickly as an average 20-25 year old man, all other things being equal? If so, do you have any links or references that would support this idea? If not, why would a 51 year old man eat at the same caloric surplus as the 20-25 year old man?
I'm not saying anyone is forcing me to try a 400-500 calorie surplus. I'm asking for someone, anyone, to provide some evidence as to why it would make sense when I haven't read anything, anywhere that even implies that a 51 year old can add muscle at the same rate as someone younger and have read much that directly states it won't happen. If I can't add muscle at the same rate, eating at the same rate is nothing but a ticket to more fat, it seems to me. What's the argument to the contrary?
No, of course I don't think a 20 yr old and 50 yr old would have the same results. I also don't think a female can get as good a result as a guy. The point I was making, is that you're the SAME age as the guy giving the advice.
While you're worrying about test levels, have a care for us little ladies with a fraction of what you have XD
Honestly, if I was you, I'd try both - only way to know what you can get your body to do for you.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not letting it dictate my goals. I'm letting it frame what's a realistic way to reach those goals.
It seems like you're making the case that a 51 year old's body takes advantage of a caloric surplus in the same way and to the same extent that a 20 year old's does, and I'm having a hard time reconciling that with testosterone levels and any number of other things.
Do you think that an average 51 year old man can put on muscle as quickly as an average 20-25 year old man, all other things being equal? If so, do you have any links or references that would support this idea? If not, why would a 51 year old man eat at the same caloric surplus as the 20-25 year old man?
I'm not saying anyone is forcing me to try a 400-500 calorie surplus. I'm asking for someone, anyone, to provide some evidence as to why it would make sense when I haven't read anything, anywhere that even implies that a 51 year old can add muscle at the same rate as someone younger and have read much that directly states it won't happen. If I can't add muscle at the same rate, eating at the same rate is nothing but a ticket to more fat, it seems to me. What's the argument to the contrary?
No, of course I don't think a 20 yr old and 50 yr old would have the same results. I also don't think a female can get as good a result as a guy. The point I was making, is that you're the SAME age as the guy giving the advice.
While you're worrying about test levels, have a care for us little ladies with a fraction of what you have XD
Honestly, if I was you, I'd try both - only way to know what you can get your body to do for you.
+1.
46 year old women here and I have gains. I know it is not fifty + club but I think a mature (and helathy) body can do more. IMO based on mine and my husbands results.
Again, test the levels. And not everyone surplus will be same. Trial and error.
I wish my husband had an account here so I could share his "old guy" stats.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not clear what powerlifting has to do with caloric surplus and body fat percentages.
I guess I just can't make my question clear enough for people to get what I'm asking.
Try implementing the surplus at what you said at 250. Do this for a month or two and reassess your gains. If gains are there try adding another 100 and then another 100. Trial and error would allow you post back to us that us that are 45+ and over and reap the rewards. I am a woman (45+) and would like to read your blog about the "old guy's journey to muscle gains"...
And my husband is 56 years and can attest to the muscle gains at this surplus (actually he is in better shape and looks so much better than he did in 20's...seriously)... Just saying.. I do not have blog about it, but I do have his data..
Are you talking about the 400-500 surplus? How much fat and muscle did he gain at that surplus? weeks. That data would be completely awesome.DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not clear what powerlifting has to do with caloric surplus and body fat percentages.
I guess I just can't make my question clear enough for people to get what I'm asking.
Try implementing the surplus at what you said at 250. Do this for a month or two and reassess your gains. If gains are there try adding another 100 and then another 100. Trial and error would allow you post back to us that us that are 45+ and over and reap the rewards. I am a woman (45+) and would like to read your blog about the "old guy's journey to muscle gains"...
And my husband is 56 years and can attest to the muscle gains at this surplus (actually he is in better shape and looks so much better than he did in 20's...seriously)... Just saying.. I do not have blog about it, but I do have his data..
I'm not quite ready to start eating at a surplus, but I am decreasing my deficit to get to maintenance in the next 4-6 weeks.
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Right, but for the same reason different advice is given for men and women, it seems like it would make sense for different advice to be given to older or younger lifters.DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not letting it dictate my goals. I'm letting it frame what's a realistic way to reach those goals.
It seems like you're making the case that a 51 year old's body takes advantage of a caloric surplus in the same way and to the same extent that a 20 year old's does, and I'm having a hard time reconciling that with testosterone levels and any number of other things.
Do you think that an average 51 year old man can put on muscle as quickly as an average 20-25 year old man, all other things being equal? If so, do you have any links or references that would support this idea? If not, why would a 51 year old man eat at the same caloric surplus as the 20-25 year old man?
I'm not saying anyone is forcing me to try a 400-500 calorie surplus. I'm asking for someone, anyone, to provide some evidence as to why it would make sense when I haven't read anything, anywhere that even implies that a 51 year old can add muscle at the same rate as someone younger and have read much that directly states it won't happen. If I can't add muscle at the same rate, eating at the same rate is nothing but a ticket to more fat, it seems to me. What's the argument to the contrary?
No, of course I don't think a 20 yr old and 50 yr old would have the same results. I also don't think a female can get as good a result as a guy. The point I was making, is that you're the SAME age as the guy giving the advice.
While you're worrying about test levels, have a care for us little ladies with a fraction of what you have XD
Honestly, if I was you, I'd try both - only way to know what you can get your body to do for you.
That the author is now 51 doesn't mean that his advice was targeted to 50+, though.
I plan on trying both, or more. The current "plan" is to get to maintenance, see how much water gain there is from creatine, then go to a 150 calorie surplus for a month or so. At that point, evaluate gained fat and go from there.
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keithcw_the_first wrote: »I'll leave this here. Look at it as inspiration! I know I do.
http://www.goheavy.net/records/viewrecordset.aspx?recordsetguid=3615c5df-025c-4b37-8a99-8394242e6a21DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not clear what powerlifting has to do with caloric surplus and body fat percentages.
I guess I just can't make my question clear enough for people to get what I'm asking.
My point is that, regardless of age, people are capable of doing some incredible things given training and a caloric surplus. I would have thought that would be clear. While it doesn't specifically address your point of BF% and caloric surplus I think it speaks to your concerns about aging out of the area where appreciable, significant gains can continue to be made.
Your question was plenty clear.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not clear what powerlifting has to do with caloric surplus and body fat percentages.
I guess I just can't make my question clear enough for people to get what I'm asking.
Try implementing the surplus at what you said at 250. Do this for a month or two and reassess your gains. If gains are there try adding another 100 and then another 100. Trial and error would allow you post back to us that us that are 45+ and over and reap the rewards. I am a woman (45+) and would like to read your blog about the "old guy's journey to muscle gains"...
And my husband is 56 years and can attest to the muscle gains at this surplus (actually he is in better shape and looks so much better than he did in 20's...seriously)... Just saying.. I do not have blog about it, but I do have his data..
Are you talking about the 400-500 surplus? How much fat and muscle did he gain at that surplus? weeks. That data would be completely awesome.DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not clear what powerlifting has to do with caloric surplus and body fat percentages.
I guess I just can't make my question clear enough for people to get what I'm asking.
Try implementing the surplus at what you said at 250. Do this for a month or two and reassess your gains. If gains are there try adding another 100 and then another 100. Trial and error would allow you post back to us that us that are 45+ and over and reap the rewards. I am a woman (45+) and would like to read your blog about the "old guy's journey to muscle gains"...
And my husband is 56 years and can attest to the muscle gains at this surplus (actually he is in better shape and looks so much better than he did in 20's...seriously)... Just saying.. I do not have blog about it, but I do have his data..
I'm not quite ready to start eating at a surplus, but I am decreasing my deficit to get to maintenance in the next 4-6 weeks.
We too were concerned about the bulk and cutting. So we took a carefully laid plan over a year and did a crap load of research.
Us old people tend to not want to go too far off the ledge.. he started right out of the gate 300 surplus for 60 days. This was after a 30 pound weight loss.
Was this freaky yes and he he did gain weight/fat (he kept his fat cloths).. There is marked distinction between the two of you. The fat gain did not concern him at all. You are trying to actually adhere to muscle gains without trying to start a bulk with moderate calorie surplus.
I tracked his stats (I am an excel, and database *kitten*) and the data is not here on MFP... He refused to track his food (I did it off line).. That is where we differ, I am way too analytical for him sometimes... But it worked and he is all the more happy today..LOL
edited to add: start your "bulk" (or surplus) in fall/winter. Summer time is really hard to do this and you can cut again late winter into spring time...
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
Right, but for the same reason different advice is given for men and women, it seems like it would make sense for different advice to be given to older or younger lifters.DeguelloTex wrote: »I'm not letting it dictate my goals. I'm letting it frame what's a realistic way to reach those goals.
It seems like you're making the case that a 51 year old's body takes advantage of a caloric surplus in the same way and to the same extent that a 20 year old's does, and I'm having a hard time reconciling that with testosterone levels and any number of other things.
Do you think that an average 51 year old man can put on muscle as quickly as an average 20-25 year old man, all other things being equal? If so, do you have any links or references that would support this idea? If not, why would a 51 year old man eat at the same caloric surplus as the 20-25 year old man?
I'm not saying anyone is forcing me to try a 400-500 calorie surplus. I'm asking for someone, anyone, to provide some evidence as to why it would make sense when I haven't read anything, anywhere that even implies that a 51 year old can add muscle at the same rate as someone younger and have read much that directly states it won't happen. If I can't add muscle at the same rate, eating at the same rate is nothing but a ticket to more fat, it seems to me. What's the argument to the contrary?
No, of course I don't think a 20 yr old and 50 yr old would have the same results. I also don't think a female can get as good a result as a guy. The point I was making, is that you're the SAME age as the guy giving the advice.
While you're worrying about test levels, have a care for us little ladies with a fraction of what you have XD
Honestly, if I was you, I'd try both - only way to know what you can get your body to do for you.
That the author is now 51 doesn't mean that his advice was targeted to 50+, though.
I plan on trying both, or more. The current "plan" is to get to maintenance, see how much water gain there is from creatine, then go to a 150 calorie surplus for a month or so. At that point, evaluate gained fat and go from there.
That's a great plan. Not sure if you had a nosy round his site (strengthunbound) but that's basically what he advises. Gradually increase to maintenance, gradually increase surplus, see what works for you. 400 surplus seems to be the sweet spot he's found for himself. He advises 300 to 400 for women but I've found 250 works for me.
Good luck with it anyway, I think you'll surprise yourself. I know I feel better than I did when I was in my teens, twenties, early thirties
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