Inflammation, A Hopefully Constructive Discussion
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mamapeach910 wrote: »Yesterday in one of the many threads on sugar, someone mentioned eliminating it as improving her inflammation. I asked her what her inflammation was caused by, but she never returned to the thread.
Several people were kind enough to point me to very helpful studies linking a sort of chronic low-level state of inflammation to metabolic syndrome. Okay, cool, I can get that. What I'd like to understand and sort of flesh out in this discussion is how that feels to someone, symptomatically.
I don't have and never have had insulin resistance or metabolic syndrome, and the only noticeable symptom my Google-fu could manage to find was fatigue. What else have you experienced that would make you call it inflammation?
To give you some idea why I find the word "inflammation" rather odd to throw around... I have psoriatic arthritis and experience painful episodes where my joints actually get red and inflamed. I think of LITERAL inflammation when I hear the word.
I'd like to understand how other people experience systemic inflammation at a low level.
I didn't have time to read the whole thread so here is my two-cents' worth. I understand inflammation as you do - to be things like arthritis and side-effects of infections or irritations. When my asthma flares up due to bronchitis or allergies I consider that as inflammation and it is very uncomfortable, as are the treatments (steroids, rescue inhalers.) I also think there is good inflammation (muscle soreness after a workout) and bad inflammation (arthritis, asthma, etc.)0 -
I may* have endometriosis, which is an inflammatory disease. I have noticed that with the elimination of processed soy, I experience much less pain.
*I've had two surgeries to remove suspect masses in my abdomen and in the second one, had an ovary removed. Different surgeons performed each procedure...one said, "You've got endometriosis!" the other said, "You don't have endometriosis!" So...there's that.0 -
Woah, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. "Inflammation" is how our bodies heal and prevent infection. Too much of it is damaging and too little is also damaging. It is thought that for some reason these days many people have slightly too much inflammation (possibly 2/2 to diet, stress, pollution, etc.) and this can lead to all sorts of problems.
Many diseases that we used to think were simply due to aging are actually related to chronic inflammation (eg heart disease, macular degeneration, etc.). This is another reason why it's important for long term health to get used to eating whole foods and not just CICO.0 -
Didn't read anyone else's responses, but throwing this out there. Both my mother and our cat take glucosamine, which I assume is some form of sugar (glucose... right?), for their joint inflammation / arthritis. So I've definitely heard that sugar, probably not twinkies or coca-cola, but prescribed glucosamine, does something for inflammation. Not claiming to know anything, just things I've heard and observed.0
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mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
I find this very interesting and I’m glad you brought it up. I’ve had chronic back pain for many years now, as well as occasional knee pain and IT band soreness, and I call that inflammation, although doctors haven’t diagnosed it as anything. It usually manifests as stiffness in some areas (upper back), fairly acute pain in others (lower back), or severe muscular soreness (IT band).
Because anti-inflammatories didn’t help much, I tried a severely restricted diet with a caloric deficit for a while. I cut out all bread, most starches, meat, sugar (at least of the added variety). I guess it was a low carb vegetarian diet. I did this for 6-8 months and it did squat all, except probably cause me to lose some muscle mass. I’m in much better shape when I lift heavy weights, get deep tissue massage (sometimes bruise-inducingly painful), foam roll daily, and stretch a lot. Running has been rough for me lately, so I might switch to the rowing machine again. Lower impact, but still gets the blood flowing.
Major props on your persistence and dedication. I had a good friend with fibro and she really benefitted from deep tissue massage and foam rolling. I hope you find your happy place
I have severe back pain and diagnosed degenerative disc disease. Between that and the PsA, my doctor has told me that anything high impact is a no-go for me. So running is out.
I'm surprised to hear your friend did well with deep tissue massage! The idea scares me... though... I'll confess this here... it's really silly... when I'm in a bad flare, my muscles spasm, and I actually have my children take turns punching the spasming muscles until they stop. It's the only thing that helps.
Major props to you too for your progress with weight training! I can't wait to progress further. I know it helps me a lot. Exercise really is the best thing, even though the thought of doing it seems daunting when you're in pain.
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TheSingingMom wrote: »This is an interesting article on inflammation. Unfortunately, he does not cite his sources.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-tell-if-youre-inflamed-objective-and-subjective-inflammatory-markers/#axzz3YtgWDG1a
One of the things that struck me is the following statement:
"Ultimately, though? It comes down to the simple question you must ask yourself: how do you feel?
I mean, this seems like an obvious marker, but a lot of people ignore it in pursuit of numbers. If you feel run down, lethargic, unhappy, your workouts are suffering, you struggle to get out of bed, you’re putting on a little extra weight around the waist, sex isn’t as interesting, etc., etc., etc., you may be suffering from some manner of systemic, low-grade inflammation. Conversely, if you’re full of energy, generally pleased and/or content with life, killing it in the gym, bounding out of bed, lean as ever or on your way there, and your sex drive is powerful and age appropriate, you’re probably good.
And really, isn’t that the most important health marker of all?"
This is sort of what caused all the controversy yesterday. As many people here have answered they have seen an improvement or worsening of certain medical conditions with dietary changes. Those people have seen those changes in themselves and that is all that matters for them.
I think that systemic inflammation is a complex issue and that the medical community is still learning a lot about it. I think one of the problems with trying to pin it down to one set of symptoms is that there isn't just one set of symptoms that can indicate systemic inflammation. It feels different to different people. One person might have a flare up of arthritis. Another might have an IBS episode. A third might have fibromyalgia and on and on.
It can be difficult to pin down because whatever food affects one person might not affect the next person the same way.
No, I think you missed the point entirely.
Inflammation is a very broad term.
For some, it's connected with a condition that will pass when they lose weight.
For some, it's connected with a condition that will be eliminated when they eliminated a food that's causing an allergic reaction.
For some, it's connected to a life-long disease that's progressive and needs to be managed.
For the last category, the good-day/bad-day "feels" arbiter is just bro-science at its finest.
If anything, in this thread I've learned that "inflammation" is different things for different people and you can't say any one thing about it.
Actually systemic inflammation is something that can be measured (there are some markers that identify it). And yes, there are studies that prove a connection between diet and inflammation.
For instance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25437888
That... wasn't what I was asking.
Have you read the thread? I have a slew of autoimmune diseases. My inflammatory markers get measured on the regular.
I was asking how it FELT to people, what symptoms they experienced.
FTR, according to that abstract, I must have a high quality diet. My markers came back measuring quite nicely on my last series of testing.
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My water aerobics instructor and I were discussing this on Monday. She has a problem with systemic inflammation that basically makes all of her joints hurt. She has tested negative for the usual suspects like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis so her doctor has recommended an elimination diet to see if that helps. The first thing he suggested she eliminate are foods from the nightshade family, which means no tomatoes, peppers (both chilis and bell, plus spices like paprika), eggplant, etc.
I had joint pain for a long time before my PsA was diagnosed. And it was weird to me that I had all this hand and foot pain and didn't see any joint changes like my sister had from osteoarthritis. I and my doctor thought it was just my weight, though I did try an elimination of nightshades for a while. No response.
Then my nails went funky on me, and some Googling told me that my nail problem was psoriasis. I have never had any skin issues from psoriasis. I just started having lifting and pitting of my nails.
Additionally, there are other sero-negative forms of autoimmune arthritis besides psoriatic arthritis. I would really urge your friend to go see a rheumatologist.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »That... wasn't what I was asking.
Have you read the thread?
Don't mind me...just gonna sit and eat some popcorn.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
I find this very interesting and I’m glad you brought it up. I’ve had chronic back pain for many years now, as well as occasional knee pain and IT band soreness, and I call that inflammation, although doctors haven’t diagnosed it as anything. It usually manifests as stiffness in some areas (upper back), fairly acute pain in others (lower back), or severe muscular soreness (IT band).
Because anti-inflammatories didn’t help much, I tried a severely restricted diet with a caloric deficit for a while. I cut out all bread, most starches, meat, sugar (at least of the added variety). I guess it was a low carb vegetarian diet. I did this for 6-8 months and it did squat all, except probably cause me to lose some muscle mass. I’m in much better shape when I lift heavy weights, get deep tissue massage (sometimes bruise-inducingly painful), foam roll daily, and stretch a lot. Running has been rough for me lately, so I might switch to the rowing machine again. Lower impact, but still gets the blood flowing.
Major props on your persistence and dedication. I had a good friend with fibro and she really benefitted from deep tissue massage and foam rolling. I hope you find your happy place
I have severe back pain and diagnosed degenerative disc disease. Between that and the PsA, my doctor has told me that anything high impact is a no-go for me. So running is out.
I'm surprised to hear your friend did well with deep tissue massage! The idea scares me... though... I'll confess this here... it's really silly... when I'm in a bad flare, my muscles spasm, and I actually have my children take turns punching the spasming muscles until they stop. It's the only thing that helps.
Major props to you too for your progress with weight training! I can't wait to progress further. I know it helps me a lot. Exercise really is the best thing, even though the thought of doing it seems daunting when you're in pain.
I'll throw in a suggestion for deep tissue massage too. Husbands friend suffers from fibro and swears by it for symptom alleviation0 -
Mine is lymphatic. A portion of my lymph system is damaged, and it inhibits drainage of fluids from my legs. If it gets bad enough, sores develop on the skin and break, and the fluid will leak out that way. If it progresses beyond that, the tissue in my legs will begin to harden.
I went through an elimination diet for different reasons, but noticed along the way that some of the changes were also helping with my legs. I was already at my maintenance weight, so weight loss wasn't a factor. There's been some correlation found between low carb and easing lymphedema symptoms, but no structured studies for it. It's difficult because the majority of cases are a side effect of cancer treatment, so no where near the top of the priority list of things anyone wants to study to help those people. When it is studied, it's rare that primary (the kind I have) is any more than a footnote.0 -
Deep tissue massage is tricky, yes it can help sort out the deep knots and ease tension but it can be excruciating for someone already in pain, particularly if they get you on a tender point0
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Mine is lymphatic. A portion of my lymph system is damaged, and it inhibits drainage of fluids from my legs. If it gets bad enough, sores develop on the skin and break, and the fluid will leak out that way. If it progresses beyond that, the tissue in my legs will begin to harden.
I went through an elimination diet for different reasons, but noticed along the way that some of the changes were also helping with my legs. I was already at my maintenance weight, so weight loss wasn't a factor. There's been some correlation found between low carb and easing lymphedema symptoms, but no structured studies for it. It's difficult because the majority of cases are a side effect of cancer treatment, so no where near the top of the priority list of things anyone wants to study to help those people. When it is studied, it's rare that primary (the kind I have) is any more than a footnote.
That sounds really painful.
Part of this whole thing between diet and medical conditions does seem to be that, outside of diabetes, there really doesn't seem to be much controlled scientific study done for specific diseases.
I've learned a lot from this thread, mostly that... what works for one person won't work for another. And that inflammation is a REALLY broad term.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »My water aerobics instructor and I were discussing this on Monday. She has a problem with systemic inflammation that basically makes all of her joints hurt. She has tested negative for the usual suspects like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis so her doctor has recommended an elimination diet to see if that helps. The first thing he suggested she eliminate are foods from the nightshade family, which means no tomatoes, peppers (both chilis and bell, plus spices like paprika), eggplant, etc.
I had joint pain for a long time before my PsA was diagnosed. And it was weird to me that I had all this hand and foot pain and didn't see any joint changes like my sister had from osteoarthritis. I and my doctor thought it was just my weight, though I did try an elimination of nightshades for a while. No response.
Then my nails went funky on me, and some Googling told me that my nail problem was psoriasis. I have never had any skin issues from psoriasis. I just started having lifting and pitting of my nails.
Additionally, there are other sero-negative forms of autoimmune arthritis besides psoriatic arthritis. I would really urge your friend to go see a rheumatologist.
Thanks. I will see her later today in class so I will mention this.
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My first sign was my shoulders, than knees, feet,fingers, toes, lower back, at one point my left arm was frozen at the elbow, than my lungs. It progressively went to every single joint. There was about 3 months between first sign and actually seeing the rheumy. I had no redness or hot to touch, just swelling and pain. At the worse my CRP markers were 126.8 (5 is considered high) and again not red or hot, just swollen.
I actually have appointment on Monday with the rheumatologist. Regular checkup, but lately my pelvis has been hurting so I am interested in some other approaches. Lord know I cant possibly add any more Meds. So I am going to ask him about diet. He is older so it will be interesting to hear his opinion. Thanks for bringing this up:)0 -
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mamapeach910 wrote: »Mine is lymphatic. A portion of my lymph system is damaged, and it inhibits drainage of fluids from my legs. If it gets bad enough, sores develop on the skin and break, and the fluid will leak out that way. If it progresses beyond that, the tissue in my legs will begin to harden.
I went through an elimination diet for different reasons, but noticed along the way that some of the changes were also helping with my legs. I was already at my maintenance weight, so weight loss wasn't a factor. There's been some correlation found between low carb and easing lymphedema symptoms, but no structured studies for it. It's difficult because the majority of cases are a side effect of cancer treatment, so no where near the top of the priority list of things anyone wants to study to help those people. When it is studied, it's rare that primary (the kind I have) is any more than a footnote.
That sounds really painful.
Part of this whole thing between diet and medical conditions does seem to be that, outside of diabetes, there really doesn't seem to be much controlled scientific study done for specific diseases.
I've learned a lot from this thread, mostly that... what works for one person won't work for another. And that inflammation is a REALLY broad term.
When I was first diagnosed and the doctor was describing what was going on, he kept using the word "inflammation" and I kept thinking he either meant infection (thinking yay, antibiotics and I'm cured). There's definitely a lot of contexts for it.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
I find this very interesting and I’m glad you brought it up. I’ve had chronic back pain for many years now, as well as occasional knee pain and IT band soreness, and I call that inflammation, although doctors haven’t diagnosed it as anything. It usually manifests as stiffness in some areas (upper back), fairly acute pain in others (lower back), or severe muscular soreness (IT band).
Because anti-inflammatories didn’t help much, I tried a severely restricted diet with a caloric deficit for a while. I cut out all bread, most starches, meat, sugar (at least of the added variety). I guess it was a low carb vegetarian diet. I did this for 6-8 months and it did squat all, except probably cause me to lose some muscle mass. I’m in much better shape when I lift heavy weights, get deep tissue massage (sometimes bruise-inducingly painful), foam roll daily, and stretch a lot. Running has been rough for me lately, so I might switch to the rowing machine again. Lower impact, but still gets the blood flowing.
Major props on your persistence and dedication. I had a good friend with fibro and she really benefitted from deep tissue massage and foam rolling. I hope you find your happy place
I have severe back pain and diagnosed degenerative disc disease. Between that and the PsA, my doctor has told me that anything high impact is a no-go for me. So running is out.
I'm surprised to hear your friend did well with deep tissue massage! The idea scares me... though... I'll confess this here... it's really silly... when I'm in a bad flare, my muscles spasm, and I actually have my children take turns punching the spasming muscles until they stop. It's the only thing that helps.
Major props to you too for your progress with weight training! I can't wait to progress further. I know it helps me a lot. Exercise really is the best thing, even though the thought of doing it seems daunting when you're in pain.
It’s neat to see so many people mention deep tissue massage. It can definitely be painful as hell, both from my own experience and what said friend has told me - sometimes to the point of tears. Seeing positive results, though, makes it worth it. I think that having a registered massage therapist who knows their stuff, has experience with fibro or related conditions, and who you have a good trust relationship with is key in this context. It’s absolutely normal to find it scary. This is part of why I like foam rollers - the level of pain is completely within my control. And ouch, muscle spasms.
Anyhow, thank you for your kind words. I’m sure you’ll see progress, it sounds like you’re a tough cookie (mmm cookies). I have so much respect for people who push through obstacles to get stronger 0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Yesterday in one of the many threads on sugar, someone mentioned eliminating it as improving her inflammation. I asked her what her inflammation was caused by, but she never returned to the thread.
Several people were kind enough to point me to very helpful studies linking a sort of chronic low-level state of inflammation to metabolic syndrome. Okay, cool, I can get that. What I'd like to understand and sort of flesh out in this discussion is how that feels to someone, symptomatically.
I don't have and never have had insulin resistance or metabolic syndrome, and the only noticeable symptom my Google-fu could manage to find was fatigue. What else have you experienced that would make you call it inflammation?
To give you some idea why I find the word "inflammation" rather odd to throw around... I have psoriatic arthritis and experience painful episodes where my joints actually get red and inflamed. I think of LITERAL inflammation when I hear the word.
I'd like to understand how other people experience systemic inflammation at a low level.
This has always tripped me up too-when I hear the word 'inflammation' I think of when I get phlebitis in my legs occasionally, and it sends me to Urgent care because the swelling, redness, heat and pain which indicate inflammation, and can be a sign of blood clots (been there, done that). When the word is used on MFP in relation to sugar consumption I get very confused lol.0 -
kalegria24 wrote: »I'm intrigued with those who are speaking of fatigue. I'm working with my doctors to see why I HAVE to sleep 9+ hours a night, and still may be fatigued in the day. So far? Ain't nuthin' wrong w/ me! So later I'll look at some of the links, and see what else comes out here. Thanks!!!!
Have you had your vitamin D level checked? Most of us are deficient and it can cause fatigue/lethargy, along with a host of other issues. I'm deficient and recently started taking a high dose D3-night and day difference already 0
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