The Clean Eating Myth
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isulo_kura wrote: »The thing is not even the 'Clean eating' people can decide what eating clean actually is. I see many so called clean eaters eating cheese, protein powders and many other things that are the definition of processed in my mind.
This argument like many on MFP is just a fallacy because as normal it's one or the other. I eat a lot of foods the clean eaters would see as clean but hey I also sometimes eat 'non clean' foods. Why does it need to be one or the other? It's this obsession about putting labels on everything. Why do you have to be 'paleo', 'clean' or anything else why not just say I eat foods I like that fit in with my goals/lifestyle?
i tend to agree …
and I will stop bringing it up when the clean eaters agree to stop acting like their food choice is someone superior to everyone else's ….or when the Paleo people admit that the Paleo Diet has absolutely nothing to do with how Paleolitchic People eat.
I don't have a name for what I do, I just eat food and hit macro/micro/calorie targets.
I thought you were an IIFYMer
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »isulo_kura wrote: »The thing is not even the 'Clean eating' people can decide what eating clean actually is. I see many so called clean eaters eating cheese, protein powders and many other things that are the definition of processed in my mind.
This argument like many on MFP is just a fallacy because as normal it's one or the other. I eat a lot of foods the clean eaters would see as clean but hey I also sometimes eat 'non clean' foods. Why does it need to be one or the other? It's this obsession about putting labels on everything. Why do you have to be 'paleo', 'clean' or anything else why not just say I eat foods I like that fit in with my goals/lifestyle?
i tend to agree …
and I will stop bringing it up when the clean eaters agree to stop acting like their food choice is someone superior to everyone else's ….or when the Paleo people admit that the Paleo Diet has absolutely nothing to do with how Paleolitchic People eat.
I don't have a name for what I do, I just eat food and hit macro/micro/calorie targets.
I thought you were an IIFYMer
eh, I guess ….I mean I hit my macros and fill in from there …but I have never considered what I do IIFYM, I guess I am ...0 -
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
The answer to the question as it was asked is: Person A or Person B may lose more weight, or they may lose exactly the same amount of weight, but either way, it does not prove or disprove anything about eating clean.
it proves my point that clean eating is not superior and you lose just as much weight eating clean as you would by following a moderate approach.
It doesn't prove anything. To prove it you need to keep all the variables constant and change only one thing: eating clean or not. Right from the off you've used two different people so you're not keeping the variables constant. As I said, it would be impossible to prove this one way or the other.
The closest thing we have in this thread to a proper example (i.e. someone who has tried both methods and lost more weight using the clean eating method, with documentation to prove it) is @tedboosalis7. Obviously his results weren't done in the same time period so even that isn't a true experiment, but it's the closest thing anyone can offer. All the people posting saying they've lost or maintainted weight eating junk don't prove anything because how do they know how much they would have lost or how healthy they would be if they didn't eat the junk?
I don't think you should be posting in threads like this until you get your issues with food under control. You always go off on a tangent about junk food and bla, bla, bla…it is very tiresome..
Actually, if you read my OP I said two males, same height, same weight, same activity level, and same deficit, so they were the same.
later in the thread I changed the example for fun to a male and a female.
Please read the entire thread before making comments about things you do not understand.
ETA - to the part I bolded. I eat ice cream every day and other "unclean" foods and my blood work is nearly perfect at my yearly physical every year, thank you very much. So my blood work proves you can eat unclean and be "healthy"…
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
The answer to the question as it was asked is: Person A or Person B may lose more weight, or they may lose exactly the same amount of weight, but either way, it does not prove or disprove anything about eating clean.
it proves my point that clean eating is not superior and you lose just as much weight eating clean as you would by following a moderate approach.
It doesn't prove anything. To prove it you need to keep all the variables constant and change only one thing: eating clean or not. Right from the off you've used two different people so you're not keeping the variables constant. As I said, it would be impossible to prove this one way or the other.
The closest thing we have in this thread to a proper example (i.e. someone who has tried both methods and lost more weight using the clean eating method, with documentation to prove it) is @tedboosalis7. Obviously his results weren't done in the same time period so even that isn't a true experiment, but it's the closest thing anyone can offer. All the people posting saying they've lost or maintainted weight eating junk don't prove anything because how do they know how much they would have lost or how healthy they would be if they didn't eat the junk?
Oh no, he is by far the only example. And his results are specious because there's no evidence he was accurately counting calories.
We can pull in @lemurcat12, and there's also me. I've eaten just like Ted and gained weight.
In fact, since clean eaters keep mentioning health... I was eating "clean" and developed a progressive autoimmune disease.
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I don't think you should be posting in threads like this until you get your issues with food under control. You always go off on a tangent about junk food and bla, bla, bla…it is very tiresome..
Actually, if you read my OP I said two males, same height, same weight, same activity level, and same deficit, so they were the same.
later in the thread I changed the example for fun to a male and a female.
Please read the entire thread before making comments about things you do not understand.
I've read it all and I understand it completely, but you don't seem to. It doesn't matter if the two people are the same height, weight, activity etc. There's still no way you can guarantee that the CO is the same for both people , so the experiment is a dud from the off. Of course there are already studies showing that different people with the same calorie deficits lose different amounts of weight. (And no, I'm not going to look them up for you.)
My comments about junk food do not qualify as "going off on a tangent" in a thread about eating clean. And if no-one with food issues was allowed to post this forum would be entirely empty.-1 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »
Oh no, he is by far the only example. And his results are specious because there's no evidence he was accurately counting calories.
We can pull in @lemurcat12, and there's also me. I've eaten just like Ted and gained weight.
In fact, since clean eaters keep mentioning health... I was eating "clean" and developed a progressive autoimmune disease.
The difference is that Ted was in a calorie deficit, assuming his calorie counting was accurate (we have no reason to think it wasn't.) If I've understood you correctly from previous posts, you weren't. You said that you ate clean but ate too many calories and therefore gained weight.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
The answer to the question as it was asked is: Person A or Person B may lose more weight, or they may lose exactly the same amount of weight, but either way, it does not prove or disprove anything about eating clean.
it proves my point that clean eating is not superior and you lose just as much weight eating clean as you would by following a moderate approach.
It doesn't prove anything. To prove it you need to keep all the variables constant and change only one thing: eating clean or not. Right from the off you've used two different people so you're not keeping the variables constant. As I said, it would be impossible to prove this one way or the other.
The closest thing we have in this thread to a proper example (i.e. someone who has tried both methods and lost more weight using the clean eating method, with documentation to prove it) is @tedboosalis7. Obviously his results weren't done in the same time period so even that isn't a true experiment, but it's the closest thing anyone can offer. All the people posting saying they've lost or maintainted weight eating junk don't prove anything because how do they know how much they would have lost or how healthy they would be if they didn't eat the junk?
I lost the weight and improved my health because I ate at a calorie deficit. The same would have happened if I had eaten 'clean' but also ate at a calorie deficit. As for health-my blood panels are great, so don't see how eating 'clean' would really make a difference there. Looking at my last blood panel results-there's not really anything I could improve on.0 -
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Sarasmaintaining wrote: »
I lost the weight and improved my health because I ate at a calorie deficit. The same would have happened if I had eaten 'clean' but also ate at a calorie deficit. As for health-my blood panels are great, don't know how they could improve anymore by changing what I eat?
That's nice but it doesn't prove anything related to this discussion. You don't know what "would have happened" if you'd eaten clean, or in what other ways your health might have improved. Normal blood panels are not the be-all and end-all of good health.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
The answer to the question as it was asked is: Person A or Person B may lose more weight, or they may lose exactly the same amount of weight, but either way, it does not prove or disprove anything about eating clean.
it proves my point that clean eating is not superior and you lose just as much weight eating clean as you would by following a moderate approach.
It doesn't prove anything. To prove it you need to keep all the variables constant and change only one thing: eating clean or not. Right from the off you've used two different people so you're not keeping the variables constant. As I said, it would be impossible to prove this one way or the other.
The closest thing we have in this thread to a proper example (i.e. someone who has tried both methods and lost more weight using the clean eating method, with documentation to prove it) is @tedboosalis7. Obviously his results weren't done in the same time period so even that isn't a true experiment, but it's the closest thing anyone can offer. All the people posting saying they've lost or maintainted weight eating junk don't prove anything because how do they know how much they would have lost or how healthy they would be if they didn't eat the junk?
I don't think you should be posting in threads like this until you get your issues with food under control. You always go off on a tangent about junk food and bla, bla, bla…it is very tiresome..
Actually, if you read my OP I said two males, same height, same weight, same activity level, and same deficit, so they were the same.
later in the thread I changed the example for fun to a male and a female.
Please read the entire thread before making comments about things you do not understand.
ETA - to the part I bolded. I eat ice cream every day and other "unclean" foods and my blood work is nearly perfect at my yearly physical every year, thank you very much. So my blood work proves you can eat unclean and be "healthy"…
So I eat very closely to NJD. I don't follow any regime or a particular diet. I don't call my diet anything. I love food, but understand the importance of getting variety and meeting nutrient goals. So what I do is ensure I meet my protein goals first and ensure a variety of foods to increase nutrient availability.
One interesting thing I did discover from my journey, I tend to eat more nutrient dense/more whole foods early in my day so I can incorporate things i love such as ice cream or candy. By doing this, I have been a lot more consistent with my diet.
Following this method, I am not at my lowest weight since high school (I am 32 years old). In fact, I am below my high school weight of 175 (at 172 now).
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
I don't think you should be posting in threads like this until you get your issues with food under control. You always go off on a tangent about junk food and bla, bla, bla…it is very tiresome..
Actually, if you read my OP I said two males, same height, same weight, same activity level, and same deficit, so they were the same.
later in the thread I changed the example for fun to a male and a female.
Please read the entire thread before making comments about things you do not understand.
I've read it all and I understand it completely, but you don't seem to. It doesn't matter if the two people are the same height, weight, activity etc. There's still no way you can guarantee that the CO is the same for both people , so the experiment is a dud from the off. Of course there are already studies showing that different people with the same calorie deficits lose different amounts of weight. (And no, I'm not going to look them up for you.)
My comments about junk food do not qualify as "going off on a tangent" in a thread about eating clean. And if no-one with food issues was allowed to post this forum would be entirely empty.
No, you don't understand. Saying the word DEFICIT implies that their CO is working such that it creates the deficit of 500 calories. So his hypothetical takes any differences into account.
This was stipulated in the first post:both person A & B are in a 500 calorie daily deficit.
That DOES count CO.
His scenario also specified moderation. You're making a presumption about the amount of junk consumed, methinks.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
I don't think you should be posting in threads like this until you get your issues with food under control. You always go off on a tangent about junk food and bla, bla, bla…it is very tiresome..
Actually, if you read my OP I said two males, same height, same weight, same activity level, and same deficit, so they were the same.
later in the thread I changed the example for fun to a male and a female.
Please read the entire thread before making comments about things you do not understand.
I've read it all and I understand it completely, but you don't seem to. It doesn't matter if the two people are the same height, weight, activity etc. There's still no way you can guarantee that the CO is the same for both people , so the experiment is a dud from the off.
Metabolic chamber. Done.Of course there are already studies showing that different people with the same calorie deficits lose different amounts of weight. (And no, I'm not going to look them up for you.)
Of course not. Because you haven't actually read them (you just assume they exist).
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You are simply taking his word for everything he said but there is no proof to back up his claims.
Yes, I believe he is truthful, just as I believe you are telling the truth and others who have posted here... if we have to suspect everyone of lying, there would be no point to any of these discussions at all. Anyone could fake their diary, photoshop their photos, how do we know?
So why don't we all agree to trust one another.0 -
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »
Oh no, he is by far the only example. And his results are specious because there's no evidence he was accurately counting calories.
We can pull in @lemurcat12, and there's also me. I've eaten just like Ted and gained weight.
In fact, since clean eaters keep mentioning health... I was eating "clean" and developed a progressive autoimmune disease.
The difference is that Ted was in a calorie deficit, assuming his calorie counting was accurate (we have no reason to think it wasn't.) If I've understood you correctly from previous posts, you weren't. You said that you ate clean but ate too many calories and therefore gained weight.
If Ted wasn't losing weight, he wasn't in a deficit. There are a ton of variables in ones weight loss. And since he was prediabetic, it's potential, he has some IR. So having a high carb/junk food diet, could have led to elevated insulin levels, lowering his over calories out.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
You are simply taking his word for everything he said but there is no proof to back up his claims.
Yes, I believe he is truthful, just as I believe you are telling the truth and others who have posted here... if we have to suspect everyone of lying, there would be no point to any of these discussions at all. Anyone could fake their diary, photoshop their photos, how do we know?
So why don't we all agree to trust one another.
So how can you say Ted's situation applies but Sara's does not?
I saw greater weight loss/fat loss when I incorporated the foods I love.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »
Of course not. Because you haven't actually read them (you just assume they exist).Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Of course there are already studies showing that different people with the same calorie deficits lose different amounts of weight. (And no, I'm not going to look them up for you.)
I saw them a few days ago, but can't be arsed to spend all day looking for them again. You can find them yourself if you really want to! And no, I'm not lying.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »
Of course not. Because you haven't actually read them (you just assume they exist).Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Of course there are already studies showing that different people with the same calorie deficits lose different amounts of weight. (And no, I'm not going to look them up for you.)
I saw them a few days ago, but can't be arsed to spend all day looking for them again. You can find them yourself if you really want to! And no, I'm not lying.
Burden of proof falls on the claimant. If you want to claim they exist, then it's up to you to provide them.
Furthermore, you can't be "arsed [sic] to spend all day looking for them", but you expect us to?
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If all things could be completely equal between two people (including micros and macros) and in every way possible (body measurements, health, mind, fitness, etc.) except the source of food, I would say they would lose exactly the same at the same rate.
Hitting micros and macros, to me, means a healthy diet. And there is no way this could be obtained eating 1500 calories of cake. (I hate this example as anti-clean. anti-clean does not mean anti-healthy.)
I think the reason people lose at different rates is how they personally respond to a diet. It may not even be about the "micros" or the "toxins"; a lot of it just about the individual's determination and desire to maintain a specific diet type. that is why there are so many different types of diets that individuals are successful with.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
I don't think you should be posting in threads like this until you get your issues with food under control. You always go off on a tangent about junk food and bla, bla, bla…it is very tiresome..
Actually, if you read my OP I said two males, same height, same weight, same activity level, and same deficit, so they were the same.
later in the thread I changed the example for fun to a male and a female.
Please read the entire thread before making comments about things you do not understand.
I've read it all and I understand it completely, but you don't seem to. It doesn't matter if the two people are the same height, weight, activity etc. There's still no way you can guarantee that the CO is the same for both people , so the experiment is a dud from the off. Of course there are already studies showing that different people with the same calorie deficits lose different amounts of weight. (And no, I'm not going to look them up for you.)
My comments about junk food do not qualify as "going off on a tangent" in a thread about eating clean. And if no-one with food issues was allowed to post this forum would be entirely empty.
again, reading fail. I specifically said that BOTH people are in a calorie deficit of 500 calories, so my example does guarantee that.
Please post said studies that you are referencing.
To the bolded part, no the forum would not be empty as most that post here have a healthy relationship with food and do not assign moral values to the foods that they eat.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »
Of course not. Because you haven't actually read them (you just assume they exist).Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Of course there are already studies showing that different people with the same calorie deficits lose different amounts of weight. (And no, I'm not going to look them up for you.)
I saw them a few days ago, but can't be arsed to spend all day looking for them again. You can find them yourself if you really want to! And no, I'm not lying.
lOL typical..
reference study and then when asked for said study say "I don't have the time to find them" yet, you have all day to post on here but you don't have ten minutes to find a study?0 -
So how can you say Ted's situation applies but Sara's does not?
I saw greater weight loss/fat loss when I incorporated the foods I love.
I say Ted's situation is a better example as he tried both methods, clean and dirty, and lost weight with the former but not with the latter even though he was (on paper anyway) in a calorie deficit both times. As you say it's impossible to calculate his exact calorie deficit without taking into account the impact of the type of CI on the CO (you said: "having a high carb/junk food diet, could have led to elevated insulin levels, lowering his over calories out") but doesn't that just give even more credence to the clean eating philosophy?
Other people who say they have gained weight eating clean haven't said they were in a calorie deficit. I think a lot of newcomers get confused when some clean eating people say they don't have to count calories. That just means they aren't writing them down; it doesn't mean they aren't in a deficit.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
So how can you say Ted's situation applies but Sara's does not?
I saw greater weight loss/fat loss when I incorporated the foods I love.
I say Ted's situation is a better example as he tried both methods, clean and dirty, and lost weight with the former but not with the latter even though he was (on paper anyway) in a calorie deficit both times. As you say it's impossible to calculate his exact calorie deficit without taking into account the impact of the type of CI on the CO (you said: "having a high carb/junk food diet, could have led to elevated insulin levels, lowering his over calories out") but doesn't that just give even more credence to the clean eating philosophy?
Other people who say they have gained weight eating clean haven't said they were in a calorie deficit. I think a lot of newcomers get confused when some clean eating people say they don't have to count calories. That just means they aren't writing them down; it doesn't mean they aren't in a deficit.
Clean =/= low carb. In Ted situation, if he did have an issue with carbs, then bacon (not clean) would have been perfect for his situation.
One with IR or another medical condition would have to alter their macro's (not specifically the types of foods) to address their situation. Those with PCOS need low carb. Those with hypoglycemia need higher carb. Clean vs not clean have no baring.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Sarasmaintaining wrote: »
I lost the weight and improved my health because I ate at a calorie deficit. The same would have happened if I had eaten 'clean' but also ate at a calorie deficit. As for health-my blood panels are great, don't know how they could improve anymore by changing what I eat?
That's nice but it doesn't prove anything related to this discussion. You don't know what "would have happened" if you'd eaten clean, or in what other ways your health might have improved. Normal blood panels are not the be-all and end-all of good health.
What are you going by then?
-my blood panels are good
-I have no health problems at all
-my blood pressure is good
-I sleep well
-I have a great sex life with my husband
-I can walk 2 miles without getting winded
-I can keep up with my three kids
-I have a healthy bmi
-I have a healthy bf%
-my doctor says I'm very low risk for heart disease
-my last ob-gyn appointment came back with normal test results
-I can open a jar without having to ask someone for help
-this past winter I got sick one time, with a cold
-I'm on no medication
-I have a happy, balanced outlook towards life
-my mental health is great (no issues with anxiety, depression, stress etc)
How exactly are you defining 'good' health?
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lOL typical..
reference study and then when asked for said study say "I don't have the time to find them" yet, you have all day to post on here but you don't have ten minutes to find a study?FunkyTobias wrote: »
Burden of proof falls on the claimant. If you want to claim they exist, then it's up to you to provide them.
Furthermore, you can't be "arsed [sic] to spend all day looking for them", but you expect us to?
Oh looky here, I found it. Article + link to study.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2015/05/12/why-you-cant-lose-weight-but-your-best-friend-can-on-the-same-diet/0 -
GuitarJerry wrote: »It's easier to lose while "clean eating" due to the volume of food. But, not because clean eating is "better".
Not always. If you are practicing IF or generally don't eat high volume, then eating "dirty" might be more beneficial. In fact, how often do you see a thread labeled, "Help, I can't eat 1200 calories"?
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