The Clean Eating Myth
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
Please explain how earlier you said the person eating clean would lose more weight in a hypothetical situation but now when certain variables are eliminated you say it would be better to have some relevance to real life, how convenient. You're trying to wiggle out of a situation because it doesn't benefit you.
You're not making sense again (surprise surprise). I said that in a real-life situation the person eating clean would be able to have a higher calorie deficit whilst maintaining optimum nutrition for good health, and would therefore lose more weight.
But that observation was deemed to be off topic.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
The real life relevance is that no one can eat 'clean' (whatever that is) forever.
I'm skeptical that even those who claim they do, really eat clean 100% of the time.
(Really? you don't eat cake on someone's birthday? You don't indulge on vacation? You never eat out?)
I think the real life relevance is that in reality, the type A person doesn't exist. They claim that they do, but when caught with (gasp, coffee creamer), there is some excuse......
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LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
You believe he weighed out 1500 calories of cake each day and ate nothing else, and gained weight over a long period?Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
You are simply taking his word for everything he said but there is no proof to back up his claims.
Yes, I believe he is truthful, just as I believe you are telling the truth and others who have posted here... if we have to suspect everyone of lying, there would be no point to any of these discussions at all. Anyone could fake their diary, photoshop their photos, how do we know?
So why don't we all agree to trust one another.
I have no response to that.
How ironic that you are questioning someone's honesty by yourself making an allegation that is untrue.0 -
No person A will lose more weight ***Period*** What everyone fails to take into consideration is that person A who eats a balanced diet and probably has slow releasing complex carbs in their diet will be able to expend more energy than person B eating donuts. While person B will have a burst of energy up front that will be short lived and the workout will end quicker than person A's who is on a steady energy release path.
Please re-read my original post, I specifically said that Person B hits their macros/micros, eats some nutrient dense foods, and fills in rest with treats like ice cream.
That does not change my answer. I have done a clean diet and I have done a somewhat clean diet with some level of crap. I can state without repudiation that I cannot workout with the same intensity and focus when there is crap even in smallish quantities. I am not saying that is bad or good; because I certainly enjoy my crap food; but I do know without doubt; I feel more sluggish and unable to perform at the same level; which mean I burn less calories.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
Please explain how earlier you said the person eating clean would lose more weight in a hypothetical situation but now when certain variables are eliminated you say it would be better to have some relevance to real life, how convenient. You're trying to wiggle out of a situation because it doesn't benefit you.
You're not making sense again (surprise surprise). I said that in a real-life situation the person eating clean would be able to have a higher calorie deficit whilst maintaining optimum nutrition for good health, and would therefore lose more weight.
But that observation was deemed to be off topic.
I'm curious about this. I thought (for good health) it wasn't safe to have too high of a calorie deficit?0 -
No person A will lose more weight ***Period*** What everyone fails to take into consideration is that person A who eats a balanced diet and probably has slow releasing complex carbs in their diet will be able to expend more energy than person B eating donuts. While person B will have a burst of energy up front that will be short lived and the workout will end quicker than person A's who is on a steady energy release path.
Please re-read my original post, I specifically said that Person B hits their macros/micros, eats some nutrient dense foods, and fills in rest with treats like ice cream.
That does not change my answer. I have done a clean diet and I have done a somewhat clean diet with some level of crap. I can state without repudiation that I cannot workout with the same intensity and focus when there is crap even in smallish quantities. I am not saying that is bad or good; because I certainly enjoy my crap food; but I do know without doubt; I feel more sluggish and unable to perform at the same level; which mean I burn less calories.
Curious, are you never able to have a crap food - whether a rest day, 8 hours before your next workout, or ever, ever, ever because you know you will feel differently the next time you do get to a work out?0 -
No person A will lose more weight ***Period*** What everyone fails to take into consideration is that person A who eats a balanced diet and probably has slow releasing complex carbs in their diet will be able to expend more energy than person B eating donuts. While person B will have a burst of energy up front that will be short lived and the workout will end quicker than person A's who is on a steady energy release path.
Please re-read my original post, I specifically said that Person B hits their macros/micros, eats some nutrient dense foods, and fills in rest with treats like ice cream.
That does not change my answer. I have done a clean diet and I have done a somewhat clean diet with some level of crap. I can state without repudiation that I cannot workout with the same intensity and focus when there is crap even in smallish quantities. I am not saying that is bad or good; because I certainly enjoy my crap food; but I do know without doubt; I feel more sluggish and unable to perform at the same level; which mean I burn less calories.
What are you labeling "crap" food?
And your n=1 does not prove anything. I have no issues with energy and workouts and I more than likely eat the foods that you are labeling as "crap"....
Finally, my OP did not ask for your personal experience, I asked for a discussion based on parameters that I laid out.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »jessupbrady wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
lOL typical..
reference study and then when asked for said study say "I don't have the time to find them" yet, you have all day to post on here but you don't have ten minutes to find a study?FunkyTobias wrote: »
Burden of proof falls on the claimant. If you want to claim they exist, then it's up to you to provide them.
Furthermore, you can't be "arsed [sic] to spend all day looking for them", but you expect us to?
Oh looky here, I found it. Article + link to study.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2015/05/12/why-you-cant-lose-weight-but-your-best-friend-can-on-the-same-diet/
Forbes is not a peer reviewed source...
The link to the study itself is included in the article. Guess you didn't read that far (second paragraph):
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2015/05/06/db14-1881
Interesting quote from the article:
"Contrary to the popular idea that cutting 3,500 calories equates to losing a pound, the researchers found the loss of one pound equated to anywhere from 1,560 to 3,000 calories depending on the person."
I get people lose differently.... but, how does this study answer the original question about clean eating vs non-clean eating.
I would make the assumption that this would just mean the original question would assume that both people had the "thrifty" phenotype?
It doesn't answer the question. The question is impossible to answer due to all the uncontrollable variables. Unless theoretically you put the same person in a metabolic chamber, maintained the same calorie defict, did clean and non clean eating and repeated several times and then compared the weight loss.
But even then it wouldn't be accurate because his metabolism and other variables may change in accordance with the amount of weight he loses over time.
calorie deficit?
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No person A will lose more weight ***Period*** What everyone fails to take into consideration is that person A who eats a balanced diet and probably has slow releasing complex carbs in their diet will be able to expend more energy than person B eating donuts. While person B will have a burst of energy up front that will be short lived and the workout will end quicker than person A's who is on a steady energy release path.
Please re-read my original post, I specifically said that Person B hits their macros/micros, eats some nutrient dense foods, and fills in rest with treats like ice cream.
That does not change my answer. I have done a clean diet and I have done a somewhat clean diet with some level of crap. I can state without repudiation that I cannot workout with the same intensity and focus when there is crap even in smallish quantities. I am not saying that is bad or good; because I certainly enjoy my crap food; but I do know without doubt; I feel more sluggish and unable to perform at the same level; which mean I burn less calories.
Re-read the OP again. I think you missed the part about activity level being the same.jessupbrady wrote: »No person A will lose more weight ***Period*** What everyone fails to take into consideration is that person A who eats a balanced diet and probably has slow releasing complex carbs in their diet will be able to expend more energy than person B eating donuts. While person B will have a burst of energy up front that will be short lived and the workout will end quicker than person A's who is on a steady energy release path.
Please re-read my original post, I specifically said that Person B hits their macros/micros, eats some nutrient dense foods, and fills in rest with treats like ice cream.
That does not change my answer. I have done a clean diet and I have done a somewhat clean diet with some level of crap. I can state without repudiation that I cannot workout with the same intensity and focus when there is crap even in smallish quantities. I am not saying that is bad or good; because I certainly enjoy my crap food; but I do know without doubt; I feel more sluggish and unable to perform at the same level; which mean I burn less calories.
Curious, are you never able to have a crap food - whether a rest day, 8 hours before your next workout, or ever, ever, ever because you know you will feel differently the next time you do get to a work out?
I call shenanigans on this as well.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
Please explain how earlier you said the person eating clean would lose more weight in a hypothetical situation but now when certain variables are eliminated you say it would be better to have some relevance to real life, how convenient. You're trying to wiggle out of a situation because it doesn't benefit you.
You're not making sense again (surprise surprise). I said that in a real-life situation the person eating clean would be able to have a higher calorie deficit whilst maintaining optimum nutrition for good health, and would therefore lose more weight.
But that observation was deemed to be off topic.
Again, you make no sense.
How would clean eating make you able to have a higher deficit? If your TDEE is 2500 then a 500 calorie deficit is going to be 2000 regardless of clean eating or not.0 -
jessupbrady wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
Please explain how earlier you said the person eating clean would lose more weight in a hypothetical situation but now when certain variables are eliminated you say it would be better to have some relevance to real life, how convenient. You're trying to wiggle out of a situation because it doesn't benefit you.
You're not making sense again (surprise surprise). I said that in a real-life situation the person eating clean would be able to have a higher calorie deficit whilst maintaining optimum nutrition for good health, and would therefore lose more weight.
But that observation was deemed to be off topic.
I'm curious about this. I thought (for good health) it wasn't safe to have too high of a calorie deficit?
What "too high" means in this context is a subject of much debate, and best left to a separate discussion.0 -
annaskiski wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
The real life relevance is that no one can eat 'clean' (whatever that is) forever.
I'm skeptical that even those who claim they do, really eat clean 100% of the time.
(Really? you don't eat cake on someone's birthday? You don't indulge on vacation? You never eat out?)
I think the real life relevance is that in reality, the type A person doesn't exist. They claim that they do, but when caught with (gasp, coffee creamer), there is some excuse......
They can if they choose to, and they certainly can during a phase of weight reduction.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
The real life relevance is that no one can eat 'clean' (whatever that is) forever.
I'm skeptical that even those who claim they do, really eat clean 100% of the time.
(Really? you don't eat cake on someone's birthday? You don't indulge on vacation? You never eat out?)
I think the real life relevance is that in reality, the type A person doesn't exist. They claim that they do, but when caught with (gasp, coffee creamer), there is some excuse......
They can if they choose to, and they certainly can during a phase of weight reduction.
So are you saying that you don't eat clean all of the time? You eat clean for some weeks, months?
...and during that time you never used coffee creamer, ate out (restaurant or friend's house), etc?0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
The real life relevance is that no one can eat 'clean' (whatever that is) forever.
I'm skeptical that even those who claim they do, really eat clean 100% of the time.
(Really? you don't eat cake on someone's birthday? You don't indulge on vacation? You never eat out?)
I think the real life relevance is that in reality, the type A person doesn't exist. They claim that they do, but when caught with (gasp, coffee creamer), there is some excuse......
They can if they choose to, and they certainly can during a phase of weight reduction.
Why am I reminded of the 1976 song by Larry Groce: "Junk Food Junkie"0 -
No person A will lose more weight ***Period*** What everyone fails to take into consideration is that person A who eats a balanced diet and probably has slow releasing complex carbs in their diet will be able to expend more energy than person B eating donuts. While person B will have a burst of energy up front that will be short lived and the workout will end quicker than person A's who is on a steady energy release path.
Please re-read my original post, I specifically said that Person B hits their macros/micros, eats some nutrient dense foods, and fills in rest with treats like ice cream.
That does not change my answer. I have done a clean diet and I have done a somewhat clean diet with some level of crap. I can state without repudiation that I cannot workout with the same intensity and focus when there is crap even in smallish quantities. I am not saying that is bad or good; because I certainly enjoy my crap food; but I do know without doubt; I feel more sluggish and unable to perform at the same level; which mean I burn less calories.
What are you labeling "crap" food?
And your n=1 does not prove anything. I have no issues with energy and workouts and I more than likely eat the foods that you are labeling as "crap"....
Finally, my OP did not ask for your personal experience, I asked for a discussion based on parameters that I laid out.
In my experience people don't realise how 'crap' they actually feel until they're forced (quite often by some health issue) to try another way. And one person's potential for feeling good may be much higher than someone else's.
I'm curious, have you ever actually tried substituting the junk for extra 'real' food?
To use an analogy, my friend smokes two packs a day, has more energy than most people and and says she feels fine. I tell her if she quit smoking she'd be bloody Wonderwoman.0 -
and btw, how much do you workout, and what type?0
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tedboosalis7 wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
You believe he weighed out 1500 calories of cake each day and ate nothing else, and gained weight over a long period?Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
You are simply taking his word for everything he said but there is no proof to back up his claims.
Yes, I believe he is truthful, just as I believe you are telling the truth and others who have posted here... if we have to suspect everyone of lying, there would be no point to any of these discussions at all. Anyone could fake their diary, photoshop their photos, how do we know?
So why don't we all agree to trust one another.
I have no response to that.
I didn't eat 1500 calories of cake each day. I was creating a position of eating just cake (which someone did - Twinkie diet reference) versus eating a nutritious diet. The Twinkie guy lost the weight - but he also qualified his results by adding that he didn't know what the long-term ramifications of his undertaking did to him - or would do to anyone.
That's the point I've been making in making that statement. You can eat 1500 calories of cake and lose weight - but there's a whole minefield there in doing so - and it's not sustainable long-term. Hence why everyone refuses to do it.
I was weighing it all out and I was submitting diaries to my PTs at the time I was eating a diet that was more full of processed food than not. Many people could testify under oath to this - and many people saw me eat when I was eating poorly (nutrition-wise) that I wasn't eating enough in volume. I was not a closet eater. I wouldn't sit and eat 10 cookies in one sitting with no one watching. I would eat one cookie - and it was a normal sized portion, in a day.
Disappointed to read and see an implication that I am untruthful in my previous remarks when I was not.
if you did not do it then why do you keep telling everyone else to do it?
The twinkie diet guy lost weight AND had improved blood panels, so not sure how he was not healthier post twinkie diet...
The problem with discussions like these is that people want to use ridiculous comparison points like 1500 calories of cake VS 1500 calories of clean food.
He admitted that the long-term ramifications for his diet were very inconclusive - he did so in interviews. Short-term, yes - long-term, not so fast. That assumes he would have to maintain his diet by increasing his caloric intake to a "maintenance" level - which is where I go and suggest that anyone doing so is just putting themselves in a no-win position health-wise - it's not sustainable.
I am making a point by positing the above - no one in their right mind would ever eat 1500 calories of cake and only cake for one year because of the health ramifications of doing so.
That's why I tie good dietary nutrition to CICO. Inevitably, people will flee choices like the one I am made above for a more rounded dietary profile.
I am doing so to make a point. You validate the point that you (or anyone) would ever do that - or has done it. That's the point.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
My answer is that it would be more useful to think of the subject of clean eating in terms that actually have some relevance to real life.
Please explain how earlier you said the person eating clean would lose more weight in a hypothetical situation but now when certain variables are eliminated you say it would be better to have some relevance to real life, how convenient. You're trying to wiggle out of a situation because it doesn't benefit you.
You're not making sense again (surprise surprise). I said that in a real-life situation the person eating clean would be able to have a higher calorie deficit whilst maintaining optimum nutrition for good health, and would therefore lose more weight.
But that observation was deemed to be off topic.
Again, you make no sense.
How would clean eating make you able to have a higher deficit? If your TDEE is 2500 then a 500 calorie deficit is going to be 2000 regardless of clean eating or not.
I don't think that poster understands what a calorie deficit means.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »No person A will lose more weight ***Period*** What everyone fails to take into consideration is that person A who eats a balanced diet and probably has slow releasing complex carbs in their diet will be able to expend more energy than person B eating donuts. While person B will have a burst of energy up front that will be short lived and the workout will end quicker than person A's who is on a steady energy release path.
Please re-read my original post, I specifically said that Person B hits their macros/micros, eats some nutrient dense foods, and fills in rest with treats like ice cream.
That does not change my answer. I have done a clean diet and I have done a somewhat clean diet with some level of crap. I can state without repudiation that I cannot workout with the same intensity and focus when there is crap even in smallish quantities. I am not saying that is bad or good; because I certainly enjoy my crap food; but I do know without doubt; I feel more sluggish and unable to perform at the same level; which mean I burn less calories.
What are you labeling "crap" food?
And your n=1 does not prove anything. I have no issues with energy and workouts and I more than likely eat the foods that you are labeling as "crap"....
Finally, my OP did not ask for your personal experience, I asked for a discussion based on parameters that I laid out.
In my experience people don't realise how 'crap' they actually feel until they're forced (quite often by some health issue) to try another way. And one person's potential for feeling good may be much higher than someone else's.
I'm curious, have you ever actually tried substituting the junk for extra 'real' food?
To use an analogy, my friend smokes two packs a day, has more energy than most people and and says she feels fine. I tell her if she quit smoking she'd be bloody Wonderwoman.
so you are comparing cigarette smoking to "junk" food now?
I don't eat fake food, everything I eat is real.
Why don't you list some examples of junk food and explain why they are junk?
I don't need to swap any foods out because I have already hit my micros and macros for the day. Do you really think you get an added benefit from extra micros?0 -
tedboosalis7 wrote: »tedboosalis7 wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
You believe he weighed out 1500 calories of cake each day and ate nothing else, and gained weight over a long period?Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
You are simply taking his word for everything he said but there is no proof to back up his claims.
Yes, I believe he is truthful, just as I believe you are telling the truth and others who have posted here... if we have to suspect everyone of lying, there would be no point to any of these discussions at all. Anyone could fake their diary, photoshop their photos, how do we know?
So why don't we all agree to trust one another.
I have no response to that.
I didn't eat 1500 calories of cake each day. I was creating a position of eating just cake (which someone did - Twinkie diet reference) versus eating a nutritious diet. The Twinkie guy lost the weight - but he also qualified his results by adding that he didn't know what the long-term ramifications of his undertaking did to him - or would do to anyone.
That's the point I've been making in making that statement. You can eat 1500 calories of cake and lose weight - but there's a whole minefield there in doing so - and it's not sustainable long-term. Hence why everyone refuses to do it.
I was weighing it all out and I was submitting diaries to my PTs at the time I was eating a diet that was more full of processed food than not. Many people could testify under oath to this - and many people saw me eat when I was eating poorly (nutrition-wise) that I wasn't eating enough in volume. I was not a closet eater. I wouldn't sit and eat 10 cookies in one sitting with no one watching. I would eat one cookie - and it was a normal sized portion, in a day.
Disappointed to read and see an implication that I am untruthful in my previous remarks when I was not.
if you did not do it then why do you keep telling everyone else to do it?
The twinkie diet guy lost weight AND had improved blood panels, so not sure how he was not healthier post twinkie diet...
The problem with discussions like these is that people want to use ridiculous comparison points like 1500 calories of cake VS 1500 calories of clean food.
He admitted that the long-term ramifications for his diet were very inconclusive - he did so in interviews. Short-term, yes - long-term, not so fast. That assumes he would have to maintain his diet by increasing his caloric intake to a "maintenance" level - which is where I go and suggest that anyone doing so is just putting themselves in a no-win position health-wise - it's not sustainable.
I am making a point by positing the above - no one in their right mind would ever eat 1500 calories of cake and only cake for one year because of the health ramifications of doing so.
That's why I tie good dietary nutrition to CICO. Inevitably, people will flee choices like the one I am made above for a more rounded dietary profile.
I am doing so to make a point. You validate the point that you (or anyone) would ever do that - or has done it. That's the point.
Here we go again with the "nothing but cake" strawman. Hate to break it to you, Ted, but nobody in the IIFYM camp ever recommended that.
Why don't we just add "excluding the middle" to your logical fallacy BINGO card?
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