Gaining muscle and losing fat
ajh2133
Posts: 14 Member
Hey all! I am 18, female, and weigh 128 lbs. I'm currently at about 18% body fat. I've been strength training for about a year now and am starting to track my food and become more educated in hopes of overcoming a plateau. I am wondering, if I'm trying to lose fat (I do not have much to lose) and gain muscle, what calorie goal should I be trying to shoot for on here? Should I choose 'lose weight' and just increase my ratio of carbs protein and fat so I still get enough grams of protein? Any advice is greatly appreciated! 
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Why are you trying to lose fat? Women have to have more fat for their hormones to work properly. I forget what the best percentage is, but I want to say about 25%. You may not be interested in marriage and children right now, but you probably will be. Extremely low body fat can cause infertility. Talk to an expert (like a nutritionist) about this before you make up your mind.0
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wanttobefit300 wrote: »Why are you trying to lose fat? Women have to have more fat for their hormones to work properly. I forget what the best percentage is, but I want to say about 25%. You may not be interested in marriage and children right now, but you probably will be. Extremely low body fat can cause infertility. Talk to an expert (like a nutritionist) about this before you make up your mind.
18% is a healthy level for an 18 year old female. Lower than that would be considered "lean" or athletic.
Also, a nutritionist is definitely not an "expert", perhaps see a doctor or a dietician if you want advice concerning any health problems of a certain body fat percentage.
To answer OPs question, you could try doing a recomp. Eat at maintainance calories and work on strength training. It's a bit difficult for women to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, so you may need to gain the muscle first by eating in a very slight surplus, then cut the fat when you hit about 20-22% body fat.0 -
I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!0
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@ajh2133 look into cycling carbs. Depending on what muscle group you're training, or if it's a rest day, let that dictate the amount of carbs you have.
I don't know what your training split is, but back and leg days are more demanding that shoulders or arms, for example.
On rest days don't eat carbs, but replace those calories with fats, it'll help to improve your insulin sensitivity.
Another option would be nutrient timing. People from the IIFYM cult will quickly dismiss it, but again it'll help with insulin sensitivity and metabolic flexibility(the ability to switch between carbs and fats for energy). I eat/drink protein and carbs, pre, during, and post workout.
Any of those will help keep you lean, while building muscle, for sure.
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@DanPonting I'm assuming it's because those muscle groups are bigger? Thanks for the tips!0
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@DanPonting I'm assuming it's because those muscle groups are bigger? Thanks for the tips!
Exactly, bigger muscles, more weight moved, more energy exerted.
Not a problem, happy to help 0 -
I recommend the recomp route, and the above carb cycling advice is good too. Although I generally prefer full body strength programs over splits. Hitting each muscle group more than once a week is a better option in my opinion.0
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I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!
I've been looking into this, I believe the technical term for what you're trying to do is called a recomposition/recomp-here's a couple of articles I found, that walk you through the calories/macros
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-how-to-lose-fat-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-macronutrient-calculations-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle/
The second article walks you through the different macro ratios between your training days and rest days. While protein stays about the same, there's a big difference between carbs/fat depending on which day it is. I've crunched my numbers using the calculation and I don't know if I'm ready to go this route yet-especially the high amount of protein you need to consume. I also am using body-weight exercises, and not using heavy weights, so I don't know if it's even worth doing for me. But, it sounds like it might be something that would work well for you?0 -
My trainer and I have had this talk many times! I've been working with him since December, and although I may look strong and healthy, I still want to lose that last 10 lbs. ( I am sitting at 125) He told me upping my cardio to 45 minutes and strength training 2-3 times a week should help shed the "fat". Depending on how hard you hit the gym, the more calories you need to fuel and recover. He also suggested changing the calorie intake day by day. Say I'm running a 5K - I am making sure I get enough protein and carbs before and plenty of water. Loading up on protein after a hard work out is a must. I usually cycle my carbs/calories (since I am diabetic this seems to be the best for my sugars as well) depending on my activity - one day I'll consume 1200, another 1500, sometimes in between, and sometimes even less on days I am super busy and don't have time to work out. Hope that helps a little!
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@Sarasmaintaining thank you for those articles! They definitely help give me some more info. @sazziek thank you as well! I have been thinking of upping my cardio after my strength training. However, I like lifting 5-6 days a week and am pretty well conditioned but try to stay at only 20-30 minutes of cardio as I do it right after weights and do not want to over train...and frankly I'm tired after I'm done with weights. Haha
I may change to doing weighs in the morning and cardio in the evening in the summer though. Getting enough sleep will just have to be a priority if I plan on working out for 1 hr 45 or 2 hours, 6 days a week. Over training sure would not help.
@rybo why do you think full body days are better? That's what I would prefer to do but I've heard so much about splits being better.0 -
I don't make things complicated. I generally bulk in the winter. Eat in a surplus and lift heavy and with intensity. Cut in the spring by adding in about 20mins of cardio at a moderate intensity plus same heavy program with weights and eat short about 150 calories a day (I eat all my exercise earned calories). It comes off slow and steady. I also eat about 30% protein, 25% fat and 45% carbs and that is a good ratio for me to keep me satisfied. I never let myself get starving. I carry food around with me constantly. Drink lots of water. Have lots of patience.0
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It's good that you're starting all this young, too. It's easier to build muscle and tweak your body when you're young and have those young muscles and bones that don't injure as easily. Muscle has memory, so if you start young, it will keep with you when you get older even when you stop. You start up again and it comes back quickly. I started training in my mid teens.0
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Sounds like your wanting to recomp. I've spent a year doing that, with pleasing results (20%BF down to 15%). Your calorific needs depend on height etc. I found the calorie calculator on scoobysworkshop to be very accurate for me. I've seen people carb cycle, eat different calories on different days etc. I've not really done any of that. I just set cals to 1850, hit protein target and lift heavy with a small amount of cardio chucked in.0
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Strong broscience.DanPonting wrote: »@ajh2133 look into cycling carbs. Depending on what muscle group you're training, or if it's a rest day, let that dictate the amount of carbs you have.
I don't know what your training split is, but back and leg days are more demanding that shoulders or arms, for example.
On rest days don't eat carbs, but replace those calories with fats, it'll help to improve your insulin sensitivity.
Another option would be nutrient timing. People from the IIFYM cult will quickly dismiss it, but again it'll help with insulin sensitivity and metabolic flexibility(the ability to switch between carbs and fats for energy). I eat/drink protein and carbs, pre, during, and post workout.
Any of those will help keep you lean, while building muscle, for sure.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Gaining muscle would include: progressive overload training combined with a calorie surplus. You can't build muscle from nothing, so there has to be calories to build it from. A slightly higher protein intake and carbs will do.
Losing fat: calorie deficit along with strength training to retain lean muscle you already have. The probability of building muscle while in calorie deficit is low.
Recomp: eating at maintenance while working on progressive overload. This works, but it takes a pretty long period of time to see any significant results.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Hey OP, I'm a few pounds heavier than you at 5'4" and trying a recomp right now as well. Too tired of losing fat. I have my calories up to about maintenance at the moment, doing PHUL for my lifting program (just came off of 5/3/1), meeting my macros...and basically crossing my fingers. I know it's not an easy process, and will probably be a long one. I figure if I don't see any results, I'll cut that last bit of fat and finally just bulk.0
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Sarasmaintaining wrote: »I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!
I've been looking into this, I believe the technical term for what you're trying to do is called a recomposition/recomp-here's a couple of articles I found, that walk you through the calories/macros
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-how-to-lose-fat-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-macronutrient-calculations-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle/
The second article walks you through the different macro ratios between your training days and rest days. While protein stays about the same, there's a big difference between carbs/fat depending on which day it is. I've crunched my numbers using the calculation and I don't know if I'm ready to go this route yet-especially the high amount of protein you need to consume. I also am using body-weight exercises, and not using heavy weights, so I don't know if it's even worth doing for me. But, it sounds like it might be something that would work well for you?
I've read these links before I'm always left feeling overwhelmed. Like do I really need to eat 199 grams of protein on my training days?! ( 1.5 X bodyweight). That seems ridiculous. And I don't want to to cycle any carbs or calories.0 -
DanPonting wrote: »
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12761365
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19246357
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17415320
Here are some studies that show eating low carbs does not effect fat loss in any significant way. So having low carb days will not accelerate fat loss any more than eating moderate carbs every day.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12761365
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19246357
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17415320
Here are some studies that show eating low carbs does not effect fat loss in any significant way. So having low carb days will not accelerate fat loss any more than eating moderate carbs every day.
Oh hi, Strawman. I didn't mention the rest day low carbs for fat loss now, did I?
Got any studies to prove me wrong about optimising insulin sensitivity? Or any of my other points? 0 -
DanPonting wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12761365
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19246357
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17415320
Here are some studies that show eating low carbs does not effect fat loss in any significant way. So having low carb days will not accelerate fat loss any more than eating moderate carbs every day.
Oh hi, Strawman. I didn't mention the rest day low carbs for fat loss now, did I?
Got any studies to prove me wrong about optimising insulin sensitivity? Or any of my other points?
If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.
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galgenstrick wrote: »If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.
I wouldn't say it's a claim exactly, since this sorta stuff is pretty common knowledge(maybe not on MFP), but sure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25527677
"A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19114407
"A calorie-restricted diet, moderately lower in carbohydrate, can lead to weight loss, decreased insulin resistance"
Do you wanna know how you get energy when your liver glycogen is low, and you're not eating carbohydrates?0 -
DanPonting wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.
I wouldn't say it's a claim exactly, since this sorta stuff is pretty common knowledge(maybe not on MFP), but sure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25527677
"A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19114407
"A calorie-restricted diet, moderately lower in carbohydrate, can lead to weight loss, decreased insulin resistance"
Do you wanna know how you get energy when your liver glycogen is low, and you're not eating carbohydrates?
Neither of these has anything to do with carb cycling. Again, how is cycling carbohydrates more beneficial then just eating a moderate amount every day? Your studies are on obese or overweight individuals, who are probably not exercising. Do the benefits those studies suggest apply to people exercising regularly?0 -
DanPonting wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.
I wouldn't say it's a claim exactly, since this sorta stuff is pretty common knowledge(maybe not on MFP), but sure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25527677
"A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19114407
"A calorie-restricted diet, moderately lower in carbohydrate, can lead to weight loss, decreased insulin resistance"
Do you wanna know how you get energy when your liver glycogen is low, and you're not eating carbohydrates?
Neither of these studies are talking about carb cycling.
The first one set the lower carb diet at 43% carbs. The second one, at a 40% carb diet. So, those studies don't really support your claims.-1 -
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arditarose wrote: »Sarasmaintaining wrote: »I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!
I've been looking into this, I believe the technical term for what you're trying to do is called a recomposition/recomp-here's a couple of articles I found, that walk you through the calories/macros
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-how-to-lose-fat-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-macronutrient-calculations-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle/
The second article walks you through the different macro ratios between your training days and rest days. While protein stays about the same, there's a big difference between carbs/fat depending on which day it is. I've crunched my numbers using the calculation and I don't know if I'm ready to go this route yet-especially the high amount of protein you need to consume. I also am using body-weight exercises, and not using heavy weights, so I don't know if it's even worth doing for me. But, it sounds like it might be something that would work well for you?
I've read these links before I'm always left feeling overwhelmed. Like do I really need to eat 199 grams of protein on my training days?! ( 1.5 X bodyweight). That seems ridiculous. And I don't want to to cycle any carbs or calories.
Yeah, that is a lot of protein! I'd have to double what I'm eating now. Obviously it will go up a bit once I hit maintenance (though the temptation to eat all those extra cals in gelato is strong
), but nowhere near that much. If that's what's needed for recomp I guess it won't be happening for me. 0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »Neither of these has anything to do with carb cycling. Again, how is cycling carbohydrates more beneficial then just eating a moderate amount every day? Your studies are on obese or overweight individuals, who are probably not exercising. Do the benefits those studies suggest apply to people exercising regularly?Neither of these studies are talking about carb cycling.
The first one set the lower carb diet at 43% carbs. The second one, at a 40% carb diet. So, those studies don't really support your claims.
Those studies were to show the relationship between a reduction in carbs and an increase in insulin sensitivity, not carb cycling. My carb cycling suggestion comes from anecdote, and stuff I've read/heard from the likes of Phil Learney, Milos Sarcev, Lyle Mcdonald, etc. The main theory being that cycling macronutrients is one way of delaying metabolic adaptations, when in a hypo/hypercaloric state.
I don't see how obesity makes it less relevant. Everyone who doesn't walk around at 8-10% bodyfat naturally, will have insulin/leptin resistance to some degree. Which to me means that everyone can increase their insulin sensitivity, which, as shown, a reduction in carbs will do.
Now, nutrient timing. My thoughts for nutrient timing come from what I've heard from people who I'd deem to be a credible source, like people outlined above. After an overnight fast, you'll typically have low blood glucose and depleted glycogen stores, to what extent varies on an individual basis. As we all know, insulin inhibits fat oxidisation. Without the presence of carbohydrates, you body will switch to using your glucagon pathway, as opposed to insulin. Insulin and glucagon are like ying and yang, your body is constantly striving for glucose homeostasis. When one is secreted, the other is inhibited.
Increased glucagon levels allows a catabolic process to start which will enable the regulation of blood glucose levels, by glycogenolysis or gluconeogenesis. Glucagon can be classed as a catabolic hormone and it's main function is to break down metabolites to be used for energy, allowing us to utilise fatty acids as energy.
To me it seems logical that fat loss will be most optimal if before the workout you're in a catabolic state, utilising those fatty acids for energy, and then the consumption of carbohydrates post workout will put you in an anabolic state, since insulin will increase metabolism and anabolism, through the stimulation of glucose uptake. Therefore, throughout the day you have a fat burning period and muscle building period, all just by manipulating your macronutrients, and utilising energy source as/when you need them.
Anyone with a basic understating of nutrition and endocrinology, will be able to grasp these concepts.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »arditarose wrote: »Sarasmaintaining wrote: »I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!
I've been looking into this, I believe the technical term for what you're trying to do is called a recomposition/recomp-here's a couple of articles I found, that walk you through the calories/macros
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-how-to-lose-fat-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-macronutrient-calculations-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle/
The second article walks you through the different macro ratios between your training days and rest days. While protein stays about the same, there's a big difference between carbs/fat depending on which day it is. I've crunched my numbers using the calculation and I don't know if I'm ready to go this route yet-especially the high amount of protein you need to consume. I also am using body-weight exercises, and not using heavy weights, so I don't know if it's even worth doing for me. But, it sounds like it might be something that would work well for you?
I've read these links before I'm always left feeling overwhelmed. Like do I really need to eat 199 grams of protein on my training days?! ( 1.5 X bodyweight). That seems ridiculous. And I don't want to to cycle any carbs or calories.
Yeah, that is a lot of protein! I'd have to double what I'm eating now. Obviously it will go up a bit once I hit maintenance (though the temptation to eat all those extra cals in gelato is strong), but nowhere near that much. If that's what's needed for recomp I guess it won't be happening for me.
I really don't think it's necessary. I'm hitting 140-150 grams of protein per day at 133 lbs and think even that is high.0
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