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here's the actual law about Organic livestock care standards--worth reading just in case you've never read it before:
TITLE 7—Agriculture
Subtitle B—REGULATIONS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE (CONTINUED)
CHAPTER I—AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE (Standards, Inspections, Marketing Practices), DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE (CONTINUED)
SUBCHAPTER M—ORGANIC FOODS PRODUCTION ACT PROVISIONS
PART 205—NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM
§205.238 Livestock health care practice standard.
(a) The producer must establish and maintain preventive livestock health care practices, including:
(1) Selection of species and types of livestock with regard to suitability for site-specific conditions and resistance to prevalent diseases and parasites;
(2) Provision of a feed ration sufficient to meet nutritional requirements, including vitamins, minerals, protein and/or amino acids, fatty acids, energy sources, and fiber (ruminants);
(3) Establishment of appropriate housing, pasture conditions, and sanitation practices to minimize the occurrence and spread of diseases and parasites;
(4) Provision of conditions which allow for exercise, freedom of movement, and reduction of stress appropriate to the species;
(5) Performance of physical alterations as needed to promote the animal's welfare and in a manner that minimizes pain and stress; and
(6) Administration of vaccines and other veterinary biologics.
(b) When preventive practices and veterinary biologics are inadequate to prevent sickness, a producer may administer synthetic medications: Provided, That, such medications are allowed under §205.603. Parasiticides allowed under §205.603 may be used on:
(1) Breeder stock, when used prior to the last third of gestation but not during lactation for progeny that are to be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced; and
(2) Dairy stock, when used a minimum of 90 days prior to the production of milk or milk products that are to be sold, labeled, or represented as organic.
(c) The producer of an organic livestock operation must not:
(1) Sell, label, or represent as organic any animal or edible product derived from any animal treated with antibiotics, any substance that contains a synthetic substance not allowed under §205.603, or any substance that contains a nonsynthetic substance prohibited in §205.604.
(2) Administer any animal drug, other than vaccinations, in the absence of illness;
(3) Administer hormones for growth promotion;
(4) Administer synthetic parasiticides on a routine basis;
(5) Administer synthetic parasiticides to slaughter stock;
(6) Administer animal drugs in violation of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act; or
(7) Withhold medical treatment from a sick animal in an effort to preserve its organic status. All appropriate medications must be used to restore an animal to health when methods acceptable to organic production fail. Livestock treated with a prohibited substance must be clearly identified and shall not be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced.
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What in particular makes it worth reading?ScreeField wrote: »here's the actual law about Organic livestock care standards--worth reading just in case you've never read it before:0 -
@Need2Exerc1se , there is incentive to sell livestock at premium rates, and to achieve those rates, the farmer has to allow the animal free-range on pasture, and avoid use of hormones and antibiotics. Even free-range livestock get sick. The farmer now has a choice. Will they treat the animal with conventional antibiotics and lose the premium certification, slaughter it on the spot to cut his losses, or try a "natural" treatment of isolation, hygiene, added feed and hope for the best? This last option has the potential for unneeded suffering. I watched a vet episode where this very dilemma came up, and the farmer lost a half-dozen calves before the disease was overcome.
Seems like a stupid farmer to me, or a farmer getting bad advice from his vet. Of course an organic farmer would rather sell them as organic. But, if the odds are the animal will die then common business sense tells us that some profit > zero profit.
While the options are raised on antibiotics vs. no antibiotics ever. I'm going for zero antibiotics.0 -
@Need2Exerc1se , spoken like a true armchair farmer. Somewhere in my past I raised rats. I experienced an epidemic among the animals in my care and the heartbreak of trying to save as many as many animals as I could. You assume stupid farmer. You lack the expertise or the background. That farmer did know his business. This was a dysentery where the calves were literally expiring within hours. The disease was eventually overcome with aggressive hygiene and change of bedding. This is the cold reality when farmers try and satisfy an increasingly discerning market, which is ignorant of the suffering it may be causing.
About antibiotics overall, I tracked the causes of death through my family tree for many generations. Antibiotics could have saved a few of my relatives an early grave. One relative died from a cut thumb. It went septic.
Another relative married three times in two years. Two spouses died during the influenza epidemic.
Nowadays in our protected society, we can afford to worry about micro-doses of "toxins" in our food system, on the off chance that they might be marginally affecting our health. We've forgotten that miracle cures like antibiotics have granted us the longevity and the privilege to worry about these inanities.0 -
@Need2Exerc1se , spoken like a true armchair farmer. Somewhere in my past I raised rats. I experienced an epidemic among the animals in my care and the heartbreak of trying to save as many as many animals as I could. You assume stupid farmer. You lack the expertise or the background. That farmer did know his business. This was a dysentery where the calves were literally expiring within hours. The disease was eventually overcome with aggressive hygiene and change of bedding. This is the cold reality when farmers try and satisfy an increasingly discerning market, which is ignorant of the suffering it may be causing.
About antibiotics overall, I tracked the causes of death through my family tree for many generations. Antibiotics could have saved a few of my relatives an early grave. One relative died from a cut thumb. It went septic.
Another relative married three times in two years. Two spouses died during the influenza epidemic.
Nowadays in our protected society, we can afford to worry about micro-doses of "toxins" in our food system, on the off chance that they might be marginally affecting our health. We've forgotten that miracle cures like antibiotics have granted us the longevity and the privilege to worry about these inanities.
Um, okay. I'm not really sure what most of that rant is about honestly. I never said I was against antibiotic use for sick humans or animals. I don't think anyone in this thread has.0 -
When the consumer demands "no antibiotics" certification, they put the farmer in a dilemma. It has the potential to cause unneeded suffering, which the consumer never sees. And I was annoyed that you judged the farmer stupid.While the options are raised on antibiotics vs. no antibiotics ever. I'm going for zero antibiotics.0 -
When the consumer demands "no antibiotics" certification, they put the farmer in a dilemma. It has the potential to cause unneeded suffering, which the consumer never sees. And I was annoyed that you judged the farmer stupid.While the options are raised on antibiotics vs. no antibiotics ever. I'm going for zero antibiotics.
Customers demand no antibiotics because of the choices available.0 -
I buy organic groceries, but most restaurants (even high end ones) are not using organic ingredients. So at home it's all organic especially meat which I prefer organic and as humanely raised as I can find. Wild caught for fish. But my husband and I do eat out 3-4 times a week and I just eat vegetarian at restaurants or if I'm having lunch at the work cafeteria. We spend $200 per week on groceries though to feed 2 not including the cost of eating out. When I was in college and had a really tight budget I used to go by the clean 15 and dirty dozen a lot more as a way of keeping costs down. And of course not eating out and making the most of groceries helps too.0
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how is this thread still going
@Need2Exerc1se getting a phat post count increase here
[Edited by MFP Mods]-1 -
The only thing I insist be organic is strawberries.0
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lol I got an abuse flag for this
stay classy, MFP0 -
how the fssssssssssssssssssssk is this thread still going
@Need2Exerc1se getting a phat post count increase here
lol I got an abuse flag for this
stay classy, MFP
The most random things get flagged on here. FWIW, I did not feel abused. It's a subject I enjoy discussing.0 -
@draznyth If you have better things to do than keep up with this thread, then please, go do them. All you have contributed is snark. Evidently, others are taking interest in the thread.
feel free to read back through the thread from the first page and you'll find plenty of relevant and useful info I have posted
thanks for the snarky reply, though (and the flag, apparently)0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »how the fssssssssssssssssssssk is this thread still going
@Need2Exerc1se getting a phat post count increase here
lol I got an abuse flag for this
stay classy, MFP
The most random things get flagged on here. FWIW, I did not feel abused. It's a subject I enjoy discussing.
lol I appreciate that, just a joke as you obviously understood
you got like 50+ posts from just this thread
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Flag wasn't from me. If I have a beef (haha), I have no problem letting you know .
ETA: and it is hard even for me to believe, but I have read from the beginning, and your last several comments are a pejorative disbelief that the thread is still going.0 -
Flag wasn't from me. If I have a beef (haha), I have no problem letting you know .
ETA: and it is hard even for me to believe, but I have read from the beginning, and your last several comments are a pejorative disbelief that the thread is still going.
yes the disbelief is quite strong
many studies and facts have been presented quite early in the thread (some by myself, many by others) and yet the thread continues to spin its wheels in a back-and-forth "nuh-uh! uh-huh!" fashion
ETA hey let's not fool ourselves @ahoy_m8 , this thread is predominantly @senecarr and @Need2Exerc1se getting phat post count increases lol0 -
Flag wasn't from me. If I have a beef (haha), I have no problem letting you know .
ETA: and it is hard even for me to believe, but I have read from the beginning, and your last several comments are a pejorative disbelief that the thread is still going.
yes the disbelief is quite strong
many studies and facts have been presented quite early in the thread (some by myself, many by others) and yet the thread continues to spin its wheels in a back-and-forth "nuh-uh! uh-huh!" fashion
Does not!0 -
Back on beef, I am from a ranching family. Our operation ranched one head per 80+ acres (dry, rocky country). We used as little feed as possible (expensive) and only when pasture condition necessitated it. We did treat sick animals differently. And we always sold a few animals at auction when the majority of the herd we were selling went to a contract buyer. Point is, it is not operationally difficult to treat and sell a few animals differently. I would guess all ranchers do it. At least all in my area did, FWIW.
ETA: We did not ranch the minimum number of animals to get the ag exemption. We ranched the maximum our pasture condition would support.0
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