For some, has avoiding fat been more effective than avoiding carbs for weight loss?
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And the derp lives on...
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »
Nigel Thornberry memes are a national treasure, that must be protected at all costs.
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Snickerscharlie: Sorry for the one liner response to yours. I just get fed up with one-liner smugness and should not have responded to it. It does none of us any good.0
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Rabbitjb -- perhaps we are dealing with semantics. I will agree that CICO is a 4 Laws of Thermodynamics fact when it comes to machines -- but when it comes to weight loss it is almost meaningless, because so many factors (which you yourself mention: hormones, bacteria, medicine etc) affect how our bodies respond. People are told (often so quickly and often smugly -- though I did not feel you were smug at all), "It's so simple, stupid -- eat less, move more." When it's not simple at all: Eat less, move more, but steroids can make you put on weight despite what you do. Eat less, move more -- but insulin levels affect how much fat you hold onto. Eat less, move more.... but antibiotics fed to mice (and cattle and babies) lead to changes in gut flora and weight gain independent of intake and exercise.
In such cases, and when it comes to a lot of people on this site and others, CICO as a useful concept is practically worthless and it doesn't help to beat people over the heads with it. People come here for help to figure out what is happening with their bodies. Why is it that, using the best instruments at hand -- MFP for CI, Fitbit or Bodybugg or whatever for CO, their bodies are not responding according to the CICO numbers? Why is it that I've lost 5 more lbs in these 14 weeks than I "should" have, and 5 less lbs the last time around than I "should" have? If the most meticulous methods of measurement are off by approximately 140 calories a day this time, then what does that mean for the "cut out a soda a day and you'll lose 15 lbs in a year" kind of simplistic advice that people so often are given?
The endocrinologist I mentioned said she didn't believe in gluten sensitivity for non-celiac people. I said, "So why is it that when I eat pasta, keeping sodium levels the same, I immediately and invariably put on 5 to 8 lbs of water weight overnight? Something is obviously going on in my body to have that reaction." She had no answer for that. I expect there is an answer, and someday science will discover it. For now, I have to go with how my body responds to different things going in. That's all any of us can do.
That's why I keep on saying, people need to find out what leads to weight loss for them.
End of my rant. I have to go to the oral surgeon today and see how last week's tooth extraction is healing.
Steroids don't make you put on weight by itself, neither does insulin or antibiotics.
It is ALWAYS calories. There are things that make finding out the corect numbers harder, but it is always, always always dependent on how much your body absorbs vs. how much it uses.
Energy cannot come out of nowhere and cannot disappear, as much as you'd like to believe that.
If your body absorbs energy from a food, it uses that energy or it's going to store it.
If your body does something, breathing, thinking, moving, it has to use energy to do that, we're not perpetual motion machines. If you don't provide your body with enough energy to fuel the energy needed to perform those feats, your body has no choice but to use its own energy storage. Or else you'd die because there's no energy to keep your heart beating. That is a fact, like it or not.
Btw, eating more carbs than usual leads to water weight gain too, not only sodium so there's your answer for that.0 -
Has anyone else found the opposite to be true that cutting fat has effected your weight loss rather than cutting carbs?
I think it's really individual.
What I also recommend is looking at your diet and seeing how you can cut calories painlessly.
For me, part of that was cutting starchy carbs, and that was a big part of my original approach. I tend not to care that much about stuff like bread, rice, pasta and to prefer the foods eaten with them, so reducing portion size or cutting out the bread in favor of non sandwich lunches was an easy approach for me.
But reducing fat by decreasing the amount of oil I used in dressings or when cooking (same with butter), decreasing the amount of cheese I added, tending to replace restaurant meals with home cooked ones (since restaurants can be assumed to use tons of butter), all were painless ways to reduce calories that resulted from reducing fat. Cutting out fattier cuts of meat for meatless meats or many kinds of fish or chicken breast also helps, although I've always eaten a pretty wide variety of protein sources (and not much of the fattiest stuff like sausage or non-lean ground beef, although I will make sure to include good marbled beef and pork shoulder).
Cutting down on sweets and eating them only in moderation after being sure to get a full complement of nutrient-dense foods like adequate protein and veggies and fruits also tended to cut down on both fat and carbs.
For me, then, I certainly agree that simply focusing on carbs is not all that helpful. I suspect this is because they've not been my traditional weakness (fats probably more so), I'm insulin sensitive (and pretty active now), and I've never experienced this thing where eating carbs makes me more hungry like some claim. I tend to like whole food or less processed carbs on the whole anyway, and find them quite filling.0 -
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You know, my friend @Orphia shared this link with me and I think it's almost perfect
Especially the video that he links to with the actress
http://www.bodyforwife.com/the-most-important-thing-you-can-do-to-lose-weight/
http://www.documentarytube.com/videos/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-losing-weight starting at 18.15
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"Btw, eating more carbs than usual leads to water weight gain too, not only sodium so there's your answer for that."
Stevencloser: You assume I was eating more carbs than usual with the pasta. Not true. Same level of carbs, same level of sodium. Yet it caused some kind of chemical reaction in my body -- and the point was, I was curious about what was going on, and my endocrinologist was not. Yet curiosity is what leads to learning, and I am all about learning, for my own health if for no other reason.
Shell1005 -- I guess "worthless" may be too strong a word choice. CICO works easily and clearly for some people. It does not work easily and clearly for me. And because it does not, I find the way it is used by many many posters on MFP to be unhelpful for people who are asking for help to understand why their bodies are responding as they do. If the "numbers" should show a deficit, and you are not losing, then what? What help are quick one liners -- "it's CICO, stupid" -- which come across as smug? That's why I apologized for my one liner back to Snickercharlie. They're not helpful, for anyone.
Signing off for now.
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Though I'll add the advice to all: based on my experience this week, if you want fast and easy weight loss, go have a tooth pulled. Because pain killers and a soft food diet really really work if you can stay off the ice cream!
I normally do give myself a treat of ice cream after seeing the dentist, but have four visits scheduled over four weeks in July so am going to have to rethink that one.
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lemonsnowdrop wrote: »You guys bashing sugar and fat can take a look at my diary entry from yesterday. I did Stronglifts 5x5 and a small amount of cycling (only about 150 calories), and even with all of what many consider "junk food" in my day, I won't gain an ounce (of fat; water is another story, but meh). Know why? Because I burned more than I consumed. That's how it works.
Let me guess...you don't have PCOS.
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I've lost 47 lbs now following a low carb, high fat diet... sometimes 3-4 lbs in a week. I also use a preworkout that helps me burn more calories. Anytime in the past when I've just counted calories, eating more fat than carbs has been helpful with losing. So stick with it if it's working! :] Its much better for you, anyway.0
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"And that's why you are losing. It's not the probiotics or anything else."
MamaBirdBoss: See, I don't think you can legitimately make that kind of declaration. I can't either -- I would never say "I KNOW it's the probiotics." All I know is I am doing these three new things (2 of which, the processed foods and the probiotics) I've never done before, and I am having these results. This is the point I was trying to make. Everyone has to figure out, through trial and error, through gathering data from their N1 experiment, what will work for them.
I do agree with you that findig satiety is important -- and I've found mine through a higher level of fat than others might like.
I also am following a lot of the research on gut biome/flora -- the fact that I had antibiotics with a surgery at 6 months, and then rapidly gained weight after that, makes me curious.
Yes, I can, because there are a ton of studies on what makes people lose weight. If your gut fauna has any role at all, it's infinitesimal.
This is the FIRST TIME you've ever done what actually works: consistently eating a deficit. Why look for magic unicorn farts when the answer is right in front of you?0 -
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azulvioleta6 wrote: »lemonsnowdrop wrote: »You guys bashing sugar and fat can take a look at my diary entry from yesterday. I did Stronglifts 5x5 and a small amount of cycling (only about 150 calories), and even with all of what many consider "junk food" in my day, I won't gain an ounce (of fat; water is another story, but meh). Know why? Because I burned more than I consumed. That's how it works.
Let me guess...you don't have PCOS.
PCOS doesn't break the laws of physics.0 -
The first time I was ever able to lose a significant amount of weight in my life was through a lower carb diet. I kept to no more than 45g of carbs per meal.
While I didn't notice a weight loss while trying to avoid a lot of saturated & trans fats, my cholesterol did. My triglycerides went down by nearly half (from 147 to 75). What I noticed from a more plant based and high fiber diet (after about 9 months) was a raise in my good cholesterol (from 42 to 51)) and a moderate decrease in my bad (don't remember the number).
Right now I'm trying to just do it all in moderation. Carbs I'm used to keeping lower (being diabetic), but it's harder to keep the sodium & saturated fats low.0 -
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stevencloser wrote: »azulvioleta6 wrote: »lemonsnowdrop wrote: »You guys bashing sugar and fat can take a look at my diary entry from yesterday. I did Stronglifts 5x5 and a small amount of cycling (only about 150 calories), and even with all of what many consider "junk food" in my day, I won't gain an ounce (of fat; water is another story, but meh). Know why? Because I burned more than I consumed. That's how it works.
Let me guess...you don't have PCOS.
PCOS doesn't break the laws of physics.
It's more like chemistry, actually.0 -
BILLBRYTAN wrote: »BILLBRYTAN wrote: »LOL...I stand by what I said. I've lost over 90 pounds eating these things. They don't hinder weight loss. Eating too many calories does. These things are fine in moderation, and won't negatively effect your health.
I'm sorry to bore you with facts once your mind is made up. The only negative part of MFP is the blind who want to lead everyone else to blindness. The saturated fat and cholesterol scare was based on 70 year old studies which used bad science and have long since been disproved. But the manufacturers of poisons make a fortune off you and want you to continue buying their refuse.
I never said a thing about cholesterol and saturated fats. And I still stand by what I said. Your "facts" were dug up from a source that is biased towards your side. I could find articles that support my side as well...that all foods are fine and won't negatively effect your health if eaten in moderation. Call me blind all you want, but this method (eating all foods in moderation) has helped me lose a substantial amount of weight, is sustainable, and has not had a negative impact on my health. We could go round and round on this all night. It's been done before tirelessly on this forum. We will just have to agree to disagree. Have a good night.
My sources are so obscure that I have hundreds of them which I am not allowed to show in this forum.
I have had conversations with music and film snobs along these lines . . .0 -
FitnessTim wrote: »I got real lean on a low fat diet but I had excessive cravings and had to work out constantly. Back then the whole idea of low-carb dieting seemed ridiculous to me. I thought the idea of cutting out refined sugar was just hippy talk.
Now I keep my daily carb intake relatively low and try to avoid processed sugars as much as possible while still letting myself indulge. I increased my intake of fat significantly as well. Now I don't get cravings and eat only the calories I need to meet my goals. It has never been this easy in the 20 years I have been trying to stay fit. I can now live my life without feeling deprived.
I agree that weight loss is simply calories in / calories out, but the foods we eat vary in terms of satiation. Maybe there are people out there that can eat all the sugar and carbs they want and still remain fit. Recent studies have shown that doesn't work for most people. A handful of fitness fanatics on MFP who can burn through any kind of food is not representative of what works for the general population.
Of course people can eat as many carbs as they want below their calorie limits and be fit.
I haven't gone into detail about my diet because my situation is strange due to a cellular genetic muscle disorder. My muscles are kinda crappy at fueling themselves, and so carbs help control pain because the cheap/easy energy prevents cellular damage. If I couldn't be a healthy weight without plenty of carbs, I'd be screwed. (That pain is not weakness leaving the body. It's my muscles breaking down. LOL.)
(Because of my particular, rare disorder, I limit potassium somewhat and also have lots and lots and LOTS of sodium. These things also help manage pain and cellular damage. Oh, and my blood pressure? Averages 105/65, but when I'm in shape, it dips to 90/55 sometimes! Sodium levels are only linked to blood pressure in some people.)
But just because I have a muscle disorder doesn't magically raise the satiety of foods for me. That said, 1200 calories is tough to maintain satiety on and still get my carbs in. 1500? Pretty simple. 1800? A breeeeeze.
80/20, folks. Be happy, eat the things you like, and enjoy life in a deficit!0 -
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BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
And I have had conversations with obese snobs who insist that what they eat has nothing to do with their obesity. CICObarbecuesauce wrote: »BILLBRYTAN wrote: »BILLBRYTAN wrote: »LOL...I stand by what I said. I've lost over 90 pounds eating these things. They don't hinder weight loss. Eating too many calories does. These things are fine in moderation, and won't negatively effect your health.
I'm sorry to bore you with facts once your mind is made up. The only negative part of MFP is the blind who want to lead everyone else to blindness. The saturated fat and cholesterol scare was based on 70 year old studies which used bad science and have long since been disproved. But the manufacturers of poisons make a fortune off you and want you to continue buying their refuse.
I never said a thing about cholesterol and saturated fats. And I still stand by what I said. Your "facts" were dug up from a source that is biased towards your side. I could find articles that support my side as well...that all foods are fine and won't negatively effect your health if eaten in moderation. Call me blind all you want, but this method (eating all foods in moderation) has helped me lose a substantial amount of weight, is sustainable, and has not had a negative impact on my health. We could go round and round on this all night. It's been done before tirelessly on this forum. We will just have to agree to disagree. Have a good night.
My sources are so obscure that I have hundreds of them which I am not allowed to show in this forum.
I have had conversations with music and film snobs along these lines . . .
Formerly an obese snob here, currently a slim snob. Eating egg yolks, highly refined oils, added sugar, and bleached flour all along (albeit in smaller amounts). CICO Rules Everything Around Me.0 -
I believe one also has to take genetics into focus as well as what or what not to eat. Some people have the genes of a jackrabbit and can eat Yorkie bars and still stay thin. Others, like me, LOOK at a Yorkie and gain 3 lbs. My father was obese, his mother was obese, I blimped out first and over the years my sister and brother followed the genetic pattern. Some of us can eat processed foods and others can't tolerate them. I know someone that can't eat anything processed or she gets sick. She eats only whole foods and is leaning towards vegetarianism. Every body is unique and has different needs. The only way to be successful is to follow certain rules and observe how the body responds.0
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Rabbitjb -- perhaps we are dealing with semantics. I will agree that CICO is a 4 Laws of Thermodynamics fact when it comes to machines -- but when it comes to weight loss it is almost meaningless, because so many factors (which you yourself mention: hormones, bacteria, medicine etc) affect how our bodies respond.
74% of variation in basal metabolic rate is accounted for by lean body mass, fat mass, height, and gender, in that order (with lean body mass by itself being over 60%). Some of the rest is accounted for by "after burn" from regular exercise--really, no more than 15% at most is down to individual differences that aren't easily predictable.
Something like 90% of the calories burned in exercise break down to distance, speed, time, and weight.
This ends up being a "slosh" of no more than 300 calories a day, excluding REALLY EXTREME DISORDERS that few people have (and almost all of those disorder cause weight loss rather than gain).
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While cico will work and I will lose weight, that isn't the full story of my health, or any woman's if they have pcos. You can be in the proper weight range and not get your cycle and have unwanted hair growth and cysts forming on your ovaries that will impact fertility. I don't get my period and I don't reduce other hormone side effects simply by cutting calories, this isn't some fad diet any more than a diabetics diet is a fad diet and I am not spreading some *kitten* I read somewhere about magic hormone fairies living in carbohydrates that make you fat. I have to control my insulin or it directly impacts my hormone levels, Google it, I am not kidding. This is proven, this is why doctors put so many on metformin who have this. I was not diagnosed with insulin resistance and my doctor still wanted to put me on metformin to control my insulin levels.
Why would I not share this with the OP? It is directly relevant to her health. It might not be the question she asked, but it might be the answer she needs to hear from someone who has tried doing things both ways.
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