21 day sugar detox... Day 3
jennhubbard84
Posts: 29 Member
well seems as if my other discussion was deleted before I could even read what people posted.... So here we go again.... I'm on day 3 which I'll say I've successfully completed, what have other people's experience been with the 21dsd? I'm feeling ok, not having too many issues just want to know other folks experience with it
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Replies
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Well so far so good, I believe I will probably keep going or just add a few things back in like some fruit and I'll be great, this is a massive change from how I was eating everyday... I have 150 pounds to lose so feel like this is a good kick start0
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I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables0
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the fact that the first thread ended up getting deleted should be a pretty good indication of the general consensus on such a "diet"-1
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what exactly are you trying to "detox"?
which toxins, specifically?0 -
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?-1 -
Jenn I got off of most all carbs to see if I could greatly reduce my arthritis pain and it worked so well I plan to stay off them for life. It has been 9 months now and all is well.
When I went off carbs cold turkey (tapering just did not work in my case) I thought I was going to die for the first two weeks then the cravings just faded.
I agree you should give it 90 days. My pain dropped within the first 30 days but weight loss (secondary goal) did not start until after 60 days but I was in very poor health at the time. 9 months later of next to no carbs I am lighter weight than in 22 years and general stamina is better than in 30 years. I was very weak and it was hard to get in and out of vehicles, etc.0 -
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?
I know what the title says. She's acknowledging the title of her other thread with the same title which got nuked. Yeah, I am seriously asking if you're flame baiting. Are you?
obviously I am not...you are the one making the provocative posts here. with quite the aggressive attitude, I might add.-2 -
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?
I know what the title says. She's acknowledging the title of her other thread with the same title which got nuked. Yeah, I am seriously asking if you're flame baiting. Are you?
obviously I am not...you are the one making the provocative posts here. with quite the aggressive attitude, I might add.
My posts to the OP were made in the spirit of helpfulness and I think they speak for themselves. And yours?
You are now just evading my response where I indicate that you are the one who is actually flame-baiting...
OP:
there is no reason for you to eliminate sugar from your diet
there is no such thing as a detox
as many will tell you, your body naturally detoxifies itself0 -
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?
I know what the title says. She's acknowledging the title of her other thread with the same title which got nuked. Yeah, I am seriously asking if you're flame baiting. Are you?
obviously I am not...you are the one making the provocative posts here. with quite the aggressive attitude, I might add.
My posts to the OP were made in the spirit of helpfulness and I think they speak for themselves. And yours?
You are now just evading my response where I indicate that you are the one who is actually flame-baiting...
OP:
there is no reason for you to eliminate sugar from your diet
there is no such thing as a detox
as many will tell you, your body naturally detoxifies itself
ETA: OP why do you feel it necessary to put yourself on such a restrictive diet to lose 150 lbs...the diet you specified is incredibly restrictive.
ETA: apparently edit and quote are different buttons...0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables
Sounds like you're responding well to be eating this way for three days and not feeling lousy. Most people do feel under the weather when cutting back their carbs to this degree. If you're anything like me, you were probably eating 200 or 300+ carb grams a day. This eating plan sounds like you're around 50 grams of carb? Excellent.
As you reach the 21 day mark you'll probably have an idea of whether this WOE (Way of Eating) exacerbates your hunger or helps you control it well.
You'll also have some idea as to how this WOE affects your mood. A lot of people find their mood is lifted or at least stabilized from eating this way. A smaller percentage of people find that this WOE makes them irritable or blue.
If you have pain issues due to inflammatory conditions, this WOE has been known to alleviate pain. Sometimes to the point where NSAIDS and sometimes even narcotic pain meds are no longer necessary.
Still though, I think 21 days is not long enough to assess the true benefits. Consider giving it 90 days. If you calorie count along with it, you should see some impressive weight loss too. And if you keep calorie counting after 90 days and decide to add some fruit to your day, you'll continue to see steady weight loss.
You have great things to look forward to. Keep on with it and stay strong. Best regards to you!
Thank you I feel pretty good, I really think this is working. Out great, I also quit smoking June 1st so this is easier than quitting smoking has been but I figured if I can do that than this should be a little easier.0 -
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?
I know what the title says. She's acknowledging the title of her other thread with the same title which got nuked. Yeah, I am seriously asking if you're flame baiting. Are you?
obviously I am not...you are the one making the provocative posts here. with quite the aggressive attitude, I might add.
My posts to the OP were made in the spirit of helpfulness and I think they speak for themselves. And yours?
You are now just evading my response where I indicate that you are the one who is actually flame-baiting...
OP:
there is no reason for you to eliminate sugar from your diet
there is no such thing as a detox
as many will tell you, your body naturally detoxifies itself
ETA: OP why do you feel it necessary to put yourself on such a restrictive diet to lose 150 lbs...the diet you specified is incredibly restrictive.
ETA: apparently edit and quote are different buttons...
This is just a kick starter I am using, I had terrible eating habits and some friends spoke highly of their experience, and I did my research on this, don't see what the big issue is but first and foremost this isn't what I'm doing to lose the whole 150, I'm starting off like this, and will be adding other healthy foods in once I hit my 21st day, I may go with a paleo diet , I am a sugar and carb person, that's all I was eating. I'm just trying to be healthy for myself and family and because I'd like to have a child0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?
I know what the title says. She's acknowledging the title of her other thread with the same title which got nuked. Yeah, I am seriously asking if you're flame baiting. Are you?
obviously I am not...you are the one making the provocative posts here. with quite the aggressive attitude, I might add.
My posts to the OP were made in the spirit of helpfulness and I think they speak for themselves. And yours?
You are now just evading my response where I indicate that you are the one who is actually flame-baiting...
OP:
there is no reason for you to eliminate sugar from your diet
there is no such thing as a detox
as many will tell you, your body naturally detoxifies itself
ETA: OP why do you feel it necessary to put yourself on such a restrictive diet to lose 150 lbs...the diet you specified is incredibly restrictive.
ETA: apparently edit and quote are different buttons...
This is just a kick starter I am using, I had terrible eating habits and some friends spoke highly of their experience, and I did my research on this, don't see what the big issue is but first and foremost this isn't what I'm doing to lose the whole 150, I'm starting off like this, and will be adding other healthy foods in once I hit my 21st day, I may go with a paleo diet , I am a sugar and carb person, that's all I was eating. I'm just trying to be healthy for myself and family and because I'd like to have a child
Ok I will try to address each of these
- why do you feel the need for a "kick start" rather than making simple, gradual changes
- why 21 days
- why paleo? that is HIGHLY restrictive. what particular benefits would you seek from this?
it sounds like your main goal is simply weight loss.
there are many great threads here on the forums with advice already.
you need to get a food scale (even a cheap $15 one works great) and start weighing and logging everything accurately.
you need to set your stats in MFP and let it calculate your calorie goal and follow the goal. if you log exercise then do not eat back more than 50% of your exercise calories because MFP is notorious for over-estimating calories burned during exercise.
what you do NOT need to do is implement unnecessarily (and generally miserable) restrictive diets. they will not help you lose weight any more easily or faster.
it's a marathon, not a sprint, as they say. it's about learning healthy habits that you will be able to practice for the rest of your life while still being able to enjoy eating the foods you like!0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables
Do you plan on eating only meat and vegetables for the rest of your life? That seems like a very restrictive plan, that isn't going to cover all of your nutritional needs. Is it sustainable for you?
0 -
I'm pretty new to MFP, and am a little hesitate to give me opinion on this subject, given how threads on this subject go!! I do agree with everyone who says 'what detox? the body detoxes itself' - IF we're talking about food only! Let's not pretend that the body adequately detoxes itself of alcohol, nicotine and lots of other substances people regularly put into their bodies - because it doesn't, and there are vast resources of scientific proof of this!
However, and it's a pretty big however, the BRAIN is a very different thing. Psychological addictions to all kinds of food are very real, and can be as difficult to overcome as any 40-a-day smoker, or alcohol dependent person. Cold turkey is an extreme form of removing any one of these substances from your body, and one of many methods used over a certain time period to reduce/eliminate the cravings a person can have for these things. Sugar is [scientifically proved to be] one of the most addictive things humans consume. It's terribly difficult to overcome the cravings we have for the substance, and I have huge admiration for anyone trying to do this.
Do I agree? - sort of! I see my added sugar consumption dropping, and am getting the majority of my sugar from fruit etc, simply from following the CICO approach to my food. Would I ever go sugar free? No, because I think it forms part of a balanced diet, there are foods I eat which I would be loath to give up, unless a doctor told me I could no longer have them, even in moderation. But that's a personal choice, and I wholeheartedly cheer on anyone who wants to remove a food source they feel is not doing them any good. At the end of 21 (or however many) days, they can assess their health and their wishes to continue, but (let's be honest here), 21 days without sugar isn't going to damage anyone's body! Given that the OP has said they are experiences no particular difficulties in maintaining this, I say go for it - and let us know how you do!0 -
I didn't read the other threads, so sorry if this was answered in those.
OP, are you not eating any sort of sugar and foods with any sugar in them?0 -
dizzieblondeuk wrote: »I'm pretty new to MFP, and am a little hesitate to give me opinion on this subject, given how threads on this subject go!! I do agree with everyone who says 'what detox? the body detoxes itself' - IF we're talking about food only! Let's not pretend that the body adequately detoxes itself of alcohol, nicotine and lots of other substances people regularly put into their bodies - because it doesn't, and there are vast resources of scientific proof of this!
I would love to see your scientific proof of this, seeing as how you claim there are such vast resources of it.0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables
why?
and you do realize that vegetables are a carb which equals sugar so you are still getting sugar, right?0 -
dizzieblondeuk wrote: »I'm pretty new to MFP, and am a little hesitate to give me opinion on this subject, given how threads on this subject go!! I do agree with everyone who says 'what detox? the body detoxes itself' - IF we're talking about food only! Let's not pretend that the body adequately detoxes itself of alcohol, nicotine and lots of other substances people regularly put into their bodies - because it doesn't, and there are vast resources of scientific proof of this!
However, and it's a pretty big however, the BRAIN is a very different thing. Psychological addictions to all kinds of food are very real, and can be as difficult to overcome as any 40-a-day smoker, or alcohol dependent person. Cold turkey is an extreme form of removing any one of these substances from your body, and one of many methods used over a certain time period to reduce/eliminate the cravings a person can have for these things. Sugar is [scientifically proved to be] one of the most addictive things humans consume. It's terribly difficult to overcome the cravings we have for the substance, and I have huge admiration for anyone trying to do this.
Do I agree? - sort of! I see my added sugar consumption dropping, and am getting the majority of my sugar from fruit etc, simply from following the CICO approach to my food. Would I ever go sugar free? No, because I think it forms part of a balanced diet, there are foods I eat which I would be loath to give up, unless a doctor told me I could no longer have them, even in moderation. But that's a personal choice, and I wholeheartedly cheer on anyone who wants to remove a food source they feel is not doing them any good. At the end of 21 (or however many) days, they can assess their health and their wishes to continue, but (let's be honest here), 21 days without sugar isn't going to damage anyone's body! Given that the OP has said they are experiences no particular difficulties in maintaining this, I say go for it - and let us know how you do!
1. please provide scientific evidence that your body does not naturally detoxify itself. Also, if you are correct then for those of that don't do a detox how do we get rid of alcohol, from your bodies. And please name the toxins that a detox will get rid of that your body will not, on its own.
2. please provide evidence of sugar addiction; and by evidence I mean human trials showing a link between sugar and addiction. Please do not say "because rat studies"
3. 21 days with sugar is not going to damage anyones body either. I at 50 to 100 grams of added sugar a and my blood work comes back nearly perfect every year. There is no scientific or medical reason to do a sugar detox unless one has a medical condition.
4. Finally, a sugar detox is not necessary and reinforces a bad relationship with food and is setting one up for an unhealthy relationship with food, where some foods are good and other are bad.0 -
no, it got deleted because people derailed it, which is exactly what you are doing.0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?
I know what the title says. She's acknowledging the title of her other thread with the same title which got nuked. Yeah, I am seriously asking if you're flame baiting. Are you?
obviously I am not...you are the one making the provocative posts here. with quite the aggressive attitude, I might add.
My posts to the OP were made in the spirit of helpfulness and I think they speak for themselves. And yours?
You are now just evading my response where I indicate that you are the one who is actually flame-baiting...
OP:
there is no reason for you to eliminate sugar from your diet
there is no such thing as a detox
as many will tell you, your body naturally detoxifies itself
ETA: OP why do you feel it necessary to put yourself on such a restrictive diet to lose 150 lbs...the diet you specified is incredibly restrictive.
ETA: apparently edit and quote are different buttons...
This is just a kick starter I am using, I had terrible eating habits and some friends spoke highly of their experience, and I did my research on this, don't see what the big issue is but first and foremost this isn't what I'm doing to lose the whole 150, I'm starting off like this, and will be adding other healthy foods in once I hit my 21st day, I may go with a paleo diet , I am a sugar and carb person, that's all I was eating. I'm just trying to be healthy for myself and family and because I'd like to have a child
Ok I will try to address each of these
- why do you feel the need for a "kick start" rather than making simple, gradual changes
- why 21 days
- why paleo? that is HIGHLY restrictive. what particular benefits would you seek from this?
it sounds like your main goal is simply weight loss.
there are many great threads here on the forums with advice already.
you need to get a food scale (even a cheap $15 one works great) and start weighing and logging everything accurately.
you need to set your stats in MFP and let it calculate your calorie goal and follow the goal. if you log exercise then do not eat back more than 50% of your exercise calories because MFP is notorious for over-estimating calories burned during exercise.
what you do NOT need to do is implement unnecessarily (and generally miserable) restrictive diets. they will not help you lose weight any more easily or faster.
it's a marathon, not a sprint, as they say. it's about learning healthy habits that you will be able to practice for the rest of your life while still being able to enjoy eating the foods you like!
+1,0000 -
dizzieblondeuk wrote: »I'm pretty new to MFP, and am a little hesitate to give me opinion on this subject, given how threads on this subject go!! I do agree with everyone who says 'what detox? the body detoxes itself' - IF we're talking about food only! Let's not pretend that the body adequately detoxes itself of alcohol, nicotine and lots of other substances people regularly put into their bodies - because it doesn't, and there are vast resources of scientific proof of this!
However, and it's a pretty big however, the BRAIN is a very different thing. Psychological addictions to all kinds of food are very real, and can be as difficult to overcome as any 40-a-day smoker, or alcohol dependent person. Cold turkey is an extreme form of removing any one of these substances from your body, and one of many methods used over a certain time period to reduce/eliminate the cravings a person can have for these things. Sugar is [scientifically proved to be] one of the most addictive things humans consume. It's terribly difficult to overcome the cravings we have for the substance, and I have huge admiration for anyone trying to do this.
Do I agree? - sort of! I see my added sugar consumption dropping, and am getting the majority of my sugar from fruit etc, simply from following the CICO approach to my food. Would I ever go sugar free? No, because I think it forms part of a balanced diet, there are foods I eat which I would be loath to give up, unless a doctor told me I could no longer have them, even in moderation. But that's a personal choice, and I wholeheartedly cheer on anyone who wants to remove a food source they feel is not doing them any good. At the end of 21 (or however many) days, they can assess their health and their wishes to continue, but (let's be honest here), 21 days without sugar isn't going to damage anyone's body! Given that the OP has said they are experiences no particular difficulties in maintaining this, I say go for it - and let us know how you do!
uh, wut?0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables
why?
and you do realize that vegetables are a carb which equals sugar so you are still getting sugar, right?
This is bascially what I said...
all carbs have sugar
all dairy has sugar
don't put any bbq sauce on your meat
are you eating tomatoes? squash? sweet potatoes? all have sugar...
sorry but you aren't detoxing you are not eating all the food groups.
Just make sure you are getting in your nutrients if you plan on going forward with this...ie supplement the heck outta yourself for the next 18 days.0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »well seems as if my other discussion was deleted before I could even read what people posted.... So here we go again.... I'm on day 3 which I'll say I've successfully completed, what have other people's experience been with the 21dsd? I'm feeling ok, not having too many issues just want to know other folks experience with it
Just a minute I have to finish my crunchie bar first.0 -
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1159755/looking-for-a-detox-cleanse/p1
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1080242/a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants/p1
Two classic posts by SideSteel.
Read them.
Read them again.
Read them until you understand why what you're doing is a Bad Idea [TM] and not going to help you in the long
run (which is where you need to be looking if you want to get to a healthy weight).0 -
Bring it.dizzyblond wrote:Let's not pretend that the body adequately detoxes itself of alcohol, nicotine and lots of other
substances people regularly put into their bodies - because it doesn't, and there are vast
resources of scientific proof of this!
Here, I'll help you get started: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
Detox diets for toxin elimination and weight management: a critical review of the evidence.
Klein AV, Kiat H.
J Hum Nutr Diet. 2014 Dec 18. doi: 10.1111/jhn.12286
PMID: 25522674
"Detox diets are popular dieting strategies that claim to facilitate toxin elimination and weight loss,
thereby promoting health and well-being. The present review examines whether detox diets are
necessary, what they involve, whether they are effective and whether they present any dangers.
Although the detox industry is booming, there is very little clinical evidence to support the use of these
diets ... To the best of our knowledge, no randomised controlled trials have been conducted to assess
the effectiveness of commercial detox diets in humans.
As for your claim about alcohol:
http://www.hamsnetwork.org/metabolism/
"When you drink beverage alcohol around 2 to 8 percent is lost through urine, sweat, or the breath.
The other 92 to 98 percent is metabolized by your body."
And apparently you haven't heard about the enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase.
It's in the liver. It tears apart alcohol, 'detoxing' it if you will.
There's less of it in women's stomachs than men's (per unit of mass), which is why alcohol affects women sooner,
more, and longer.
Asians and Amerindians tend to have a more-efficient form of alcohol dehydrogenase, plus they have a less-
efficient form of the enzyme which handles acetaldehyde (the breakdown product). So they build up the poison
faster & get rid of it more slowly.
One of the first breakdown products (acetaldehyde) is related to formaldehyde, very toxic. The other is basically
vinegar. That eventually gets turned into CO2 and H2O... after powering the Krebs cycle. (Hint: that powers your
body.)
.
Well, here you're actually correct. Congrat's.Psychological addictions to all kinds of food are very real
(Removed reference to infinite monkeys & typewriters, so as not to be snarky.)0 -
jennhubbard84 wrote: »
the title of the thread is "sugar detox"...are you seriously asking this?
I know what the title says. She's acknowledging the title of her other thread with the same title which got nuked. Yeah, I am seriously asking if you're flame baiting. Are you?
obviously I am not...you are the one making the provocative posts here. with quite the aggressive attitude, I might add.
My posts to the OP were made in the spirit of helpfulness and I think they speak for themselves. And yours?
You are now just evading my response where I indicate that you are the one who is actually flame-baiting...
OP:
there is no reason for you to eliminate sugar from your diet
there is no such thing as a detox
as many will tell you, your body naturally detoxifies itself
ETA: OP why do you feel it necessary to put yourself on such a restrictive diet to lose 150 lbs...the diet you specified is incredibly restrictive.
ETA: apparently edit and quote are different buttons...
This is just a kick starter I am using, I had terrible eating habits and some friends spoke highly of their experience, and I did my research on this, don't see what the big issue is but first and foremost this isn't what I'm doing to lose the whole 150, I'm starting off like this, and will be adding other healthy foods in once I hit my 21st day, I may go with a paleo diet , I am a sugar and carb person, that's all I was eating. I'm just trying to be healthy for myself and family and because I'd like to have a child
This sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan to me. Readjust your tastes. My prediction is that you'll find a little sugar is enough to sate a sugar craving once the 21 days are over. Best of luck to you.0 -
missiontofitness wrote: »jennhubbard84 wrote: »I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables
Do you plan on eating only meat and vegetables for the rest of your life? That seems like a very restrictive plan, that isn't going to cover all of your nutritional needs. Is it sustainable for you?
Why does it need to be sustainable? In the OP she states it's only for 21 days. There is no rule that one must eat the same throughout a diet or life. She's trying something and seems to be having success so far. Why is everyone giving her such a hard time. It's not as if what she's doing is dangerous or unhealthy.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »missiontofitness wrote: »jennhubbard84 wrote: »I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables
Do you plan on eating only meat and vegetables for the rest of your life? That seems like a very restrictive plan, that isn't going to cover all of your nutritional needs. Is it sustainable for you?
Why does it need to be sustainable? In the OP she states it's only for 21 days. There is no rule that one must eat the same throughout a diet or life. She's trying something and seems to be having success so far. Why is everyone giving her such a hard time. It's not as if what she's doing is dangerous or unhealthy.
so if OP just yo-yo diets for a few years that would be OK????
why wouldn't you want to have a sustainable weight loss plan??????????
I can't even believe that is a serious question...0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »missiontofitness wrote: »jennhubbard84 wrote: »I am only eating meat, eggs, veggies, very slight dairy a little cheese or cottage cheese.... No sugar, processed foods, fruit, anything with artificial sweetners, no potatoes or corn, basically just eating meat and vegetables
Do you plan on eating only meat and vegetables for the rest of your life? That seems like a very restrictive plan, that isn't going to cover all of your nutritional needs. Is it sustainable for you?
Why does it need to be sustainable? In the OP she states it's only for 21 days. There is no rule that one must eat the same throughout a diet or life. She's trying something and seems to be having success so far. Why is everyone giving her such a hard time. It's not as if what she's doing is dangerous or unhealthy.
so if OP just yo-yo diets for a few years that would be OK????
why wouldn't you want to have a sustainable weight loss plan??????????
I can't even believe that is a serious question...
If the OP gives up certain foods for 21 days then switches her diet up a bit and continues to lose weight and search for a healthy eating plan that works for her, how is that a bad thing?0 -
2. No Hi-Jacking, Trolling, or Flame-baiting
Please stay on-topic in an existing thread, and post new threads in the appropriate forum. Taking a thread off-topic is considered hi-jacking. Please either contribute politely and constructively to a topic, or move on without posting. This includes posts that encourage the drama in a topic to escalate, or posts intended to incite an uproar from the community.
It was a miserable failure the last time I posted this, but hey, patience is key, right? So let's try actually responding to what the OP asked, not whatever side arguments you feel like dredging up because the OP used the words "sugar" and "detox." I already had to close down her first thread because people were unwillingly to contribute respectfully.
It is not fair to the OP to have another thread shut down or have to sift through pages of arguing to get to the few on-topic responses. I know people want to say they are being "helpful" to the community by sharing the "truth" and "educating" new users, but derailing someone's thread is not helpful in any way and actually discourages new users because they don't like having their concerns ignored so other people can use their discussion to argue.
Please respond to the OP and/or address any concerns from the OP in this thread, or move on without posting. If you're just here to argue with the same community members you always argue with, please just take it to PM.0
This discussion has been closed.
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