Starvation Mode - Adaptive Thermogenesis and Weight Loss

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  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

    As we lose weight part of that weight loss results in a reduced calorie need. Normally, a reduction in one pound results in a reduction of 5 to 10 cals per day in BMR. Depending on your activity this can be as high as 10-20 cals per pound lost. So your TDEE slowly reduces. You seem very active so any loss in LBM will be more visible in total loss of TDEE. Your doing more with less.

    In order to stop that loss in TDEE one needs to build up lean mass or muscles. Hence my resistance training question.

    If you are bothered by the loss of calories in your TDEE and want to have a higher level consider adjusting your training to build up muscle by moving training to a progressive resistance program of some sort.
  • tigerblue
    tigerblue Posts: 1,526 Member
    Interesting that the more active you are, the more a change in BMR will affect TDEE. But it totally makes sense mathematically.

    I don't think this is what it is, since my losses haver been only a couple of pounds each time.

    And progressive resistance would be simply adding more weight as you continue your program, right?
  • californiabella
    californiabella Posts: 152
    bumpy
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    Interesting that the more active you are, the more a change in BMR will affect TDEE. But it totally makes sense mathematically.

    I don't think this is what it is, since my losses haver been only a couple of pounds each time.

    And progressive resistance would be simply adding more weight as you continue your program, right?

    Progressive resistance is either increasing weights or repetitions (to a limit) or to a lesser extent number of sets.The efficiency of training and these factors goes beyond the main focus of this thread - may I suggest you look into the "eat train progress" group here, or search for training programs or send me a PM and we can discuss a specific program.
  • tigerblue
    tigerblue Posts: 1,526 Member
    Yes thanks for the insights. Actually I was not so much looking for answers, as I am familiar with the processes, as commenting on how adaptation works in real life! Interesting topic. Your original post is the best I've read on the subject for understanding and being presented in a realistic reasonable way. This should be required reading at the beginning of everyone's journey!
  • BillRicks1
    BillRicks1 Posts: 473 Member
    Bump for later reference.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    Yes thanks for the insights. Actually I was not so much looking for answers, as I am familiar with the processes, as commenting on how adaptation works in real life! Interesting topic. Your original post is the best I've read on the subject for understanding and being presented in a realistic reasonable way. This should be required reading at the beginning of everyone's journey!

    Thanks!
  • HazeyBlue69
    HazeyBlue69 Posts: 22
    Keeping for later
  • boxfish100
    boxfish100 Posts: 172 Member
    bump
  • shireeniebeanie
    shireeniebeanie Posts: 293 Member
    3) Take diet breaks and go to maintenance with the most calories that do not result in a weight gain when needed to reduce or recover the effect of adaptation. These diet breaks can be extensive (And this creates a logical framework for me for the Eat More to Loss process – if eating more “resets” the metabolism, then a loss will occur at what was maintenance)

    This worked for me. I had stalled for a month, so I ate at maintenance for a week or two (feeling discouraged, I relaxed a bit, but didn't binge). As soon as I got back into a deficit this week, I was able to start losing again!
  • belrowley
    belrowley Posts: 24
    Thanks for this!! The term starvation mode seems very misused.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Thanks for this!! The term starvation mode seems very misused.

    Well, that and some of the effects of really starving are tied to it which isn't true, and then several out and out myths are tied to it too.

    Just because some include wrong things with the description of it, doesn't mean it isn't a true thing.
  • angelarisher3
    angelarisher3 Posts: 1 Member
    Bump to read later. Thanks for all the work and research :-)
  • GingerbreadCandy
    GingerbreadCandy Posts: 403 Member
    Bump to read more carefully later. Brilliant work and really interesting research.
  • cortesr425
    cortesr425 Posts: 19 Member
    Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Now I mostly get it. Might take a dozen rereads.
  • silkysatin
    silkysatin Posts: 1 Member
    LeanneGoingThin wrote: »
    Interesting, thank you.

  • TacoTina
    TacoTina Posts: 81 Member
    thank you for being long winded!
  • keithgreenkg
    keithgreenkg Posts: 19 Member
    This is brilliant! Nice work :)
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    Great research. Thanks
  • DaphneSW
    DaphneSW Posts: 117 Member
    bookmark :)
  • Mariekegetsfit
    Mariekegetsfit Posts: 148 Member
    Great read, bookmark :)
  • scolaris
    scolaris Posts: 2,145 Member
    Yes, very worth a bookmark...
  • sunnyeuphoria
    sunnyeuphoria Posts: 85 Member
    So am I correct in my understanding that a persons daily caloric needs can be maintained by doing strength training and building or maintaining muscle mass during the weight loss phase? So that whereas I may be able to avoid the depressed TDEE due to loss of muscle. I understand my energy requirements will be lower because of having less total body mass to move about. I am eating at the caloric level that a calculator told me I would need to maintain my goal weight with the assumption that eventually by eating that way I will reach my goal weight and be accustomed to eating that way so I dont regress to old eating habits. I would hate to have to further lessen my caloric intake just to maintain. Thanks!
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    edited March 2016
    sunnyeuphoria wrote: »
    So am I correct in my understanding that a persons daily caloric needs can be maintained by doing strength training and building or maintaining muscle mass during the weight loss phase? So that whereas I may be able to avoid the depressed TDEE due to loss of muscle. I understand my energy requirements will be lower because of having less total body mass to move about. I am eating at the caloric level that a calculator told me I would need to maintain my goal weight with the assumption that eventually by eating that way I will reach my goal weight and be accustomed to eating that way so I dont regress to old eating habits. I would hate to have to further lessen my caloric intake just to maintain. Thanks!

    To some extent yes, we still lose LBM when dieting, especially if the amount of weight to be lost is significative. But strength training can certainly offset some of the reduction in TDEE or even increase TDEE.

    Now don't expect huge changes, as the energy needs of muscle are close to 7-21 cals per pound per day (depending on activity level). So 10 lbs retained or newly developed are 70-210 cal increase in baseline TDEE.
  • concordancia
    concordancia Posts: 5,320 Member
    This is why I need to set auto correct to change "starvation mode" to "you may become sluggish and conserve energy in ways that you aren't even aware of."
  • blues4miles
    blues4miles Posts: 1,481 Member
    10/10 would read again.

    It's a shame RMR was not measured in these fellows: (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/01/26/ajcn.115.119339.abstract?sid=78fc4efb-e348-43c3-9701-2a59be984e27)

    I notice in the study that seems to show a 10-15% TDEE drop (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199503093321001#t=articleMethods) that the participants were on an 800 calorie a day liquid diet consisting of only 15% protein. I know they are supposedly accounting for the LBM loss in their math, but the more recent study is such a departure from expected it makes you wonder.
  • diannethegeek
    diannethegeek Posts: 14,776 Member
    No one reads the stickies anymore. Just giving some of them a bump.
  • Thomaskerrya
    Thomaskerrya Posts: 34 Member
    It's fantastic that three years on this is still helping people! As a habitual crash and yo-yo dieter, becoming heavier than ever over the last year (now finally trying to get my *kitten* together) this article has been the BEST thing I have ever read, it explains so much - why my crash diets don't work after the initial couple of weeks, why I am afraid to increase my calories (as instructed by the doc and thus piling on the pounds when I suddenly increase from 800 to 1600) and why I never succeed in a decent, sustainable weight loss. I had to re-read the article several times to get my head around it, and I went on to read up about Leptin - very interesting.

    So I am now going to slowly (not just jump straight in as doc instructed) increase my calorific intake so my deficit isn't so huge and concentrate on my LBM (increase resistance over cardio) - hopefully leading to a sustainable, decent weight loss. I never thought it would be so difficult seeing as I have 4 stone to lose :( now I do understand 'trying too hard'. Thank you so much!
  • Thomaskerrya
    Thomaskerrya Posts: 34 Member
    ha ha, love how 'getting my **** together' changed to '*kittens*'!!!
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
    And in Practice?

    1) Weight loss reduces TDEE in a way that is goes 10%-15% beyond what is expected from LBM. In order to combat this, it is either essential to maximize LBM during the weight loss process or one is likelier to struggle with that reduced calorie allowance.
    2) Reevaluate working TDEE not from the equations but what you experience from tracking.
    3) Take diet breaks and go to maintenance with the most calories that do not result in a weight gain when needed to reduce or recover the effect of adaptation. These diet breaks can be extensive (And this creates a logical framework for me for the Eat More to Loss process – if eating more “resets” the metabolism, then a loss will occur at what was maintenance)
    4) Yes, there are factors that help create plateaus by increasing hunger, decrease energy expenditure and affecting various physiological functions: Understanding them and how exercise and diet interact will help in defining personal strategies for successful weight loss.
    5) Success is measured in years, plan for it and adjust.

    Finally, another bit of speculation - one of the reasons the bulk and cut cycles work so well beyond developing LBM, is that the refeed period of a bulk creates an efffecive diet break allowing for restabilization of hormonal and the other factors discussed...

    Thanks for reading!
    Awesome! This explains why the TDEE online doesn't match my experience. Thank you for taking the time to compile this thread.

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