The fundamentals of successful longterm weightloss for everyone.
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Patttience wrote: »But my main point, what is the point of exercise if the necessity for doing becomes the reason you fail the whole thing because you can't keep it up. For people who are able to keep up with through thick and thin, clearly its worked for them but I contend these people are a tiny minority. I'm not talking about the average person here. I'm talking about people who have weight problems and are trying to lose it. For these people the massive majority are unable to keep up the exercise interminably. I even recall one woman on another forum who did running for two years. She lost a ton of weight and had the surgery scars to show for it after skin removal. Then one day she disappeared off the forum. But i found her blog and on it, she talked about having injured her food with tendonitis and was unable to run. She was frantic because she could not stop eating. She was unable to immediately adjust her calorie intake to her new circumstances. I wasn't around for long enough to know where this story ended but with the injury she had, I could see she wouldn't be running again any time soon.
Most people do not get as far as she did but one time her injury was pretty much my story. I had been doing triathlon. I had lost all my weight and i used to go running every day. and or cycling and swimming. I usually did more htan an hour of exercise every day. I loved it. And then i pulled a ligament and had to stop running. I also got a job. The combination of these two factors caused me to have to quit with all my exercise and so before too long i was fat again. It was years before i was able to have anohter bash but it was even longer, much longer before i realised that exercise was the problem.
I was in the same situation ... I had one of my best years of cycling and finished the season slim and trim. Then I had an accident and burnt my left foot to the bone. Could not leave the house for 5 weeks. Could hardly move at all for those 5 weeks. Just standing caused the blood to pool painfully in that foot because the artery/vein system was damaged at the foot end of things.
Just about every other year, I put on about 20 lbs in winter (but remained within my normal BMI range) because I exercised less in winter, and then I lost it with the extra exercise come spring. So gaining 20 lbs in winter was OK with me. I didn't mind starting the season with a little bit of extra weight. But that year, I realised that it wasn't a matter of exercising less ... it was a matter of not exercising at all. Sedentary barely described my activity level. So I made a point of eating less. I did gain some weight, but only about 15 lbs that winter instead of my usual 20.
I was bound and determined not to let that injury stop me. As soon as I could be upright without much pooling blood, I put my bandaged injured foot into a slipper and rode my stationary bike. In the beginning, I could only do about 5 minutes, but I slowly built up. And then, when the foot had healed to the point where my homecare nurse thought I could try a real shoe ... 3 months later ... the first shoe I tried was my cycling shoe. I actually shed tears of delight. I went on to have an even better year of cycling that next season, and dropped to the lowest weight I had been since I was about 18.
(Oh, and I had a full-time job + was taking night classes).
The point being that we've all got a choice when it comes to dealing with situations like that. Weight loss or weight maintenance is all about keeping a balance. If the amount of exercise decreases, like it no doubt will at some points, then we can choose to eat less. If the amount of exercise increases, like it does when we're ramping up toward an event, then we can choose to eat more. Just because something comes along to disrupt the exercise does not necessarily mean that all is lost.
In my experience, for me, this kind of awareness helps a lot with maintenance.
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Patttience wrote: »
These are the fundamentals that affect EVERYONE's ability to succeed in the long term with weightloss.
I read your initial post with interest until...
The above statement...the word "EVERYONE" gave me second thoughts about your entire post.
While there might be some...maybe even many...that will benefit from your fundamentals I believe that to make the claim that "EVERYONE's" ability to succeed in the long term is inaccurate.
I am always skeptical when an author uses the term "EVERYONE".
Agreed
Yep. +10 -
Patttience wrote: »Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.
It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.
So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.
I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.
Incorrect. You wrote a nice post. You told us what worked for YOU. Some of those things worked for me. Some of my own approach was QUITE different from what you posted.
I lost weight. I've been maintaining for FOURTEEN YEARS. What you posted as a whole is not "what works", it's what you did and succeeded with.
examples: you say we ALL can eat up to 40% of our calories from fat. Many of our posters are losing very well on 70% fat. You say eat fruits and vegetables. Many of our posters are losing very well (and are quite healthy) with no fruit.
You say exercise isn't the key. I believe and know that exercise, being active is a HUGE part of why I've been successful for FOURTEEN YEARS.
I lost weight, successfully, the first time I tried.
My list of "what worked" would look very different from yours. I know that, and so I don't post it as what's "best" for everyone.
What you posted is not "best for everyone" and what worked for me is not "best for everyone".
That's all most folks have objected to: your insistence that you have THE ONE ANSWER.
cheers and congrats on your loss and early maintenance success.0 -
Patttience wrote: »Stef, if it were this simple in practice, there would be much more long term success than there is in reality.
The truth is that most people who attempt weightloss fail in both the short and long term.
Again, CICO is accurate but its only useful in theory. In practice, in reality, people need more insight, advice and guidance. People don't even realise they don't know what CICO implies. Hence they go wrong.
Let me spell it out for you by giving you a common scenario.
Many people who are overweight also have a bit of depression. They are also not in peak nutritional condition. Both of these things conspire to make controlling their appetite difficult. So telling someone just eat less will not work. They won't be able to do it. Proof is in the knowledge that most people cannot willy nilly just start losing weight anytime the thought pops into their mind. People need to be readied. And what that means is a deep and unexplored territory. I've never ever seen a book discuss this.
that said, having been through it and over it numerous times and with all my research into hormones and understanding of how depression affects me, i have a pretty good clue as to what is going on there. This is why i make keeping myself happy one of my top priorities.
Now if you are going to persist in disagreeing with me, at least have the good grace to understand what my post is about. Perhaps read it through a couple of times - with an open mind.
I would say that CICO is very useful in theory and in reality, and I do agree that many who are considered obese or morbidly obese will relapse into old habits . . . I think I read once that long term success of those who are obese or morbidly obese is less than 10% or something.
Anyways, I would also argue that there is much less success in reality not because it's not as simple as CICO but because it is as simple as CICO. Here's why: in order to lose weight you really have to consume less than you burn because if your body runs out of let's say "fresh" fuel then it's going to turn to what it has stored to keep running. However, many people (and myself included for a long time) don't really understand what they're eating. They have no idea what is really in that burger, or pasta or what have you. They don't know. And I'm not saying that makes it ok - I'm just saying from a lack of education, understanding and perhaps will power there is a lot less success than there could be.
A lot of people really don't have the discipline and will power to make those long term changes that are needed. They can make them for a little while but they can't find enough variety or their brain is still craving the salt, sugar, fat they used to eat. It's almost like a drug for your brain. If people had the will power I would think there would be a lot more success than there is now. It's not always about eating less (in majority of cases sure, eating less is a major component) but sometimes it's just about eating better. . . feeling better, making better food choice and usually the more nutritionally sound food choices have more bang for your buck in terms of satiety and the visual effect of still eating the same quantity of food (you get more food for less calories). I think will power and self control are two of the biggest reasons there isn't as much long term weight loss success as there could be.
Edited because apparently I suck at spelling
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Patttience wrote: »
These are the fundamentals that affect EVERYONE's ability to succeed in the long term with weightloss.
I read your initial post with interest until...
The above statement...the word "EVERYONE" gave me second thoughts about your entire post.
While there might be some...maybe even many...that will benefit from your fundamentals I believe that to make the claim that "EVERYONE's" ability to succeed in the long term is inaccurate.
I am always skeptical when an author uses the term "EVERYONE".
Agreed completely.
I, for example, thoroughly enjoy exercise and find it suppresses my appetite.
The findings of the National Weight Control Registry also correlate exercise with maintenance.
I see nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you, OP. I wish, however, you had been more open to understanding that there is room for discussion to be had because others may have had different experience. Someone else's experience does not invalidate your own.
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1. Exercise has and it will be, beneficial in weight loss, irrespective if you agree or disagree, tons of evidence is available based on REAL research not OPINIONS. If it did not work for a few people, it is fine but to say it will not be helpful in the long run for EVERYONE is just being imaginary and absurd.
2. There will always a few researches available to counter indicate some facts. That is where "common sense", comes into play to differentiate between facts and garbage.
3. MFP community believes in calories deficit to loss weight and being active. Some will disagree in this concept, it is fine but do not label this approach as ineffective simply based on your personal experiences.
Community section (success stories) have posts from real people who have lost weight (many people have also posted pictures). Now that is called making a point with PROOF not OPINIONS.
Most of your points are really good but please do not enforce your anti-exercise and calorie deficit stance on others. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.0 -
Patttience wrote: »Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.
It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.
So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.
I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.
What you said in your original post was nothing I haven't heard before - really. You made have chosen different vocabulary or re-arranged the points but I've heard it. I was 340lbs - I was significantly over weight.
I would also argue that while your approach worked for you - which is fantastic, by the way - it may not work for everyone. I weigh 257 lbs with 137 lbs of lean mass on me. 137 freakin pounds of lean body mass . . . that's more than some women weigh altogether. As I have dropped in weight my lean body mass has actually gone up about a pound or two in two years. I would then argue that for me - someone who exercises 5-6 times/week - that waiting until I'm an "ideal" body weight to start exercising would be pointless because according to BMI I should be around 160lbs for my height (5'10) but if I was 160lbs with 137lbs of lean mass I would have like 23 lbs of fat on my body . . . and that's not realistic without a whole lot of focus on nutrition and exercise. So you see, how for someone in my position, exercise at the weight I'm at adds to my life and to my success?
Also - fun fact, I'm a runner. Not a marathon runner or an ultra runner, but I run about 5K 3 times/week. So I eat carbs . . . a lot of them. For someone not as active as me they wouldn't consume as much carbs as me because their body doesn't have a need for them. So you see how one approach worked for you, and one approach has worked for me? We're all different. I'm glad you've had so much success in your journey - it's not easy and it's the hardest thing I think any of us will ever do - but everyone is different and we all work differently. It's awesome you shared what you learned, but maybe it just won't work for everyone . . . and you know what? That's totally ok.0 -
Simply said, it all comes down to CICO. Why overcomplicate it?0
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I've lost 122 pounds by eating less than I burn and haven't regained. It seems like I'm not going wrong.Patttience wrote: »Again, CICO is accurate but its only useful in theory. In practice, in reality, people need more insight, advice and guidance. People don't even realise they don't know what CICO implies. Hence they go wrong.
And it is absolutely useful in practice. I've done it. I'm doing it.
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Exercise does not just boost one's health but it has so many other positive impacts on mental health and social wellbeing.
Absolutely!
Exercise is one of the ways I deal with stress.
Time, away from computers, technology, busy-ness, and most people, to think things through ... or time to push myself to my limits and get all my frustrations out ... or time to just relax and enjoy nature ...
It helps keep me sane!
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couldn't agree more!!!
years ago i was into bodybuilding, and even though i'm only 5' 3", it took a lot of calories to make up for all the calories i burned working out and to keep building muscle. and then i got pneumonia for several months. i lost a lot of muscle but gained a lot of fat - not only did i keep the appetite for a while, but i was used to eating a certain way, and even cutting down didn't bring me close to what i needed. and i couldn't get the right amount to preserve my muscle mass without gaining weight. when i wasn't sick any more, i weighed a little more but a much higher amount was fat than when i got sick. i never came back from it all the way, either.Patttience wrote: »
2. Exercise is not the answer to successful long term weight. You do not need to exercise to lose weight and relying on it can be the reason why you fail. Exercise for health and fitness, not for weightloss. The studies generally show that people tend to replace all the calories burnt through exercise. To out-exercise your consumption you have to do a lot (more than an hour a day most days of the week) and that's not sustainable for the vast majority even in the short term let alone the long-term. This one I have fallen victim to more times than i can count. Exercise moderately for your health and do it when you feel like it. And if you have a great deal to lose, you are better off focusing almost all your effort on diet until you are inside your healthy weight range. Maybe I should write a blog on this because there are a lot of angles to cover.
If you choose to start off with exercise from the outset, when you stop you may find it takes a few weeks for your appetite to settle down but you should not be alarmed at a temporary rise in the scales. This is pretty normal. Do not panic. And do not give up your diet when you stop exercise. Everything is going to be fine so long as you continue to hold the line on your diet.
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You're confusing simple for easy. It is that simple. That doesn't make it easy.Patttience wrote: »Stef, if it were this simple in practice, there would be much more long term success than there is in reality.
The truth is that most people who attempt weightloss fail in both the short and long term.
Again, CICO is accurate but its only useful in theory. In practice, in reality, people need more insight, advice and guidance. People don't even realise they don't know what CICO implies. Hence they go wrong.
Let me spell it out for you by giving you a common scenario.
Many people who are overweight also have a bit of depression. They are also not in peak nutritional condition. Both of these things conspire to make controlling their appetite difficult. So telling someone just eat less will not work. They won't be able to do it. Proof is in the knowledge that most people cannot willy nilly just start losing weight anytime the thought pops into their mind. People need to be readied. And what that means is a deep and unexplored territory. I've never ever seen a book discuss this.
that said, having been through it and over it numerous times and with all my research into hormones and understanding of how depression affects me, i have a pretty good clue as to what is going on there. This is why i make keeping myself happy one of my top priorities.
Now if you are going to persist in disagreeing with me, at least have the good grace to understand what my post is about. Perhaps read it through a couple of times - with an open mind.
Becoming rich on Wall Street is as simple as buy low, sell high (or more specifically buy stocks and sell them for more than you paid for them). That doesn't make it easy either.0 -
Oh dear gawd. The long posts are off-putting (tl;dr). So are posts that dictate things like, "this is the one solitary way to do things, only my way works, and I have discovered the answers."
OP is being obtuse to responses. If you only want people to respond who agree with your post, then say so in your post.
Eat less.
Move more.
Find some activity that you like and do it.0 -
Your initial post has a lot of great information and yes many people fight lots of things that bring about their eating issues. It still all boils down to calories in and calories out. You eat excess you gain... you eat in a calorie deficit you lose. If you have other issues that drive you to eat, be it emotional, or depression, or any other thing you should probably seek help to deal with those. Given this is a fitness and nutrition site and blog.. the basic science is clear about calories and how you lose or gain weight.0
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You are correct that weight loss is calories in/calories out (eat less calories than you burn), and that you do not have to exercise to lose weight, but everything else is your own personal view on things and not backed up by any peer reviewed studies or solid evidence.
For example, you don't have to eat the "right" amount of protein and fat for weight loss, but it really helps with nutrition.
The part about severely cutting calories is superfluous because calories should never be cut severely unless a person is under a doctor's care for a VLCD because the risks of losing quickly are less than the risks of staying obese.
People who are unhappy and/or not organized in the kitchen lose weight just fine.
Oh, and I think exercise is very important, but I know I need to fuel my body by eating those exercise calories back, otherwise I get pretty cranky.
Lots of people keep their weight off. Go check out the success stories here.
I've been maintaining for two years.
The rest is just what has worked for you, but these things may not work for everyone, and they might work for others. CICO is first and foremost, and how you get there is individual.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Patttience wrote: »Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.
It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.
So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.
I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.
Incorrect. You wrote a nice post. You told us what worked for YOU. Some of those things worked for me. Some of my own approach was QUITE different from what you posted.
I lost weight. I've been maintaining for FOURTEEN YEARS. What you posted as a whole is not "what works", it's what you did and succeeded with.
examples: you say we ALL can eat up to 40% of our calories from fat. Many of our posters are losing very well on 70% fat. You say eat fruits and vegetables. Many of our posters are losing very well (and are quite healthy) with no fruit.
You say exercise isn't the key. I believe and know that exercise, being active is a HUGE part of why I've been successful for FOURTEEN YEARS.
I lost weight, successfully, the first time I tried.
My list of "what worked" would look very different from yours. I know that, and so I don't post it as what's "best" for everyone.
What you posted is not "best for everyone" and what worked for me is not "best for everyone".
That's all most folks have objected to: your insistence that you have THE ONE ANSWER.
cheers and congrats on your loss and early maintenance success.
Plus one, because she has maintained weight for so long.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Patttience wrote: »Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.
It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.
So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.
I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.
Incorrect. You wrote a nice post. You told us what worked for YOU. Some of those things worked for me. Some of my own approach was QUITE different from what you posted.
I lost weight. I've been maintaining for FOURTEEN YEARS. What you posted as a whole is not "what works", it's what you did and succeeded with.
examples: you say we ALL can eat up to 40% of our calories from fat. Many of our posters are losing very well on 70% fat. You say eat fruits and vegetables. Many of our posters are losing very well (and are quite healthy) with no fruit.
You say exercise isn't the key. I believe and know that exercise, being active is a HUGE part of why I've been successful for FOURTEEN YEARS.
I lost weight, successfully, the first time I tried.
My list of "what worked" would look very different from yours. I know that, and so I don't post it as what's "best" for everyone.
What you posted is not "best for everyone" and what worked for me is not "best for everyone".
That's all most folks have objected to: your insistence that you have THE ONE ANSWER.
cheers and congrats on your loss and early maintenance success.
Plus one, because she has maintained weight for so long.
Plus two. This is one of those threads where I wish there were like buttons. Many thoughtful replies.0 -
Exercise does not just boost one's health but it has so many other positive impacts on mental health and social wellbeing.
Absolutely!
Exercise is one of the ways I deal with stress.
Time, away from computers, technology, busy-ness, and most people, to think things through ... or time to push myself to my limits and get all my frustrations out ... or time to just relax and enjoy nature ...
It helps keep me sane!
Oh, so much this^ I solve the problems of the world while out walking/jogging. Sometimes my mind just gets blissfully empty, too -- never underestimate the value of time spent with a totally empty mind in the fresh air!
I'm also much more energetic overall throughout the day for having exercise as a regular part of my life.
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