How can we give more effective advice on the forums?
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diannethegeek
Posts: 14,776 Member
I spend way too much time on these forums. Some of you have probably seen me around. I pop into a lot of the plateau and hunger threads with copy/pasted advice. Sometimes that advice is well received. Sometimes it's not.
I'd like to see if we can brainstorm some ways to get advice across more effectively.
Based on a quick count of posts I've participated in, about 50% of OPs will never return to their threads for various reasons. This includes posts where there's no sarcasm and the only questions being asked are simple ones like: "How many calories are you eating? Are you eating back your exercise calories?" etc. This is not a mean people thread. Please do not turn it into one.
Of those that return, many will answer one or two questions (of the 10 or so generally asked) and then disappear again, leaving posters flailing to give advice that might-maybe-kindof fit what the OP needs. Because of this, I prefer to bombard with advice and hope something sticks rather than wasting my time trying to peel back the onion to get to the root of the problem.
I see three options:
1. The Stickies! And other good links and guides. It would be great if every new poster on the boards at least glanced at the stickies before posting, but let's be honest: most of them don't. How many of us even look at the stickies on a regular basis? (Did you notice they changed up the lists recently so there are new/different posts up there?) Those stickies take the time to explain things at a level that I just don't have the energy to retype for new posters. I'm very likely to direct posters to a thread that already exists rather than regurgitating all of that good information and probably bungling something in the process. Plus, the comments usually cover any further questions the OP might have.
2. Lists! Yes, I keep two lists to copy/paste into threads asking for advice. (Did I mention I spend way too much time here?) One is for plateaus and one for general hunger tips. I think people read through bulleted lists more easily than paragraphs. Sadly, I get a lot of one line answers to these that answer one part of the list but not the others ("I don't have cheat days" seems to be the most common). I'm utterly convinced that there's no way to get someone to read all the way to the end of a thread, no matter how it's formatted. If anyone wants to give some tips on that, I'd be happy to hear them.
3. Visuals! Yes, there's the great flowchart that @lemonlionheart created for plateaus. And the videos explaining why food scales are great. Would condensing things down into more Pinterest-style pictures help?
Those are my ideas. I hope that you guys have some, too. What kind of advice do you respond well to? What kind of advice do you find best to give out?
I'd like to see if we can brainstorm some ways to get advice across more effectively.
Based on a quick count of posts I've participated in, about 50% of OPs will never return to their threads for various reasons. This includes posts where there's no sarcasm and the only questions being asked are simple ones like: "How many calories are you eating? Are you eating back your exercise calories?" etc. This is not a mean people thread. Please do not turn it into one.
Of those that return, many will answer one or two questions (of the 10 or so generally asked) and then disappear again, leaving posters flailing to give advice that might-maybe-kindof fit what the OP needs. Because of this, I prefer to bombard with advice and hope something sticks rather than wasting my time trying to peel back the onion to get to the root of the problem.
I see three options:
1. The Stickies! And other good links and guides. It would be great if every new poster on the boards at least glanced at the stickies before posting, but let's be honest: most of them don't. How many of us even look at the stickies on a regular basis? (Did you notice they changed up the lists recently so there are new/different posts up there?) Those stickies take the time to explain things at a level that I just don't have the energy to retype for new posters. I'm very likely to direct posters to a thread that already exists rather than regurgitating all of that good information and probably bungling something in the process. Plus, the comments usually cover any further questions the OP might have.
2. Lists! Yes, I keep two lists to copy/paste into threads asking for advice. (Did I mention I spend way too much time here?) One is for plateaus and one for general hunger tips. I think people read through bulleted lists more easily than paragraphs. Sadly, I get a lot of one line answers to these that answer one part of the list but not the others ("I don't have cheat days" seems to be the most common). I'm utterly convinced that there's no way to get someone to read all the way to the end of a thread, no matter how it's formatted. If anyone wants to give some tips on that, I'd be happy to hear them.
3. Visuals! Yes, there's the great flowchart that @lemonlionheart created for plateaus. And the videos explaining why food scales are great. Would condensing things down into more Pinterest-style pictures help?
Those are my ideas. I hope that you guys have some, too. What kind of advice do you respond well to? What kind of advice do you find best to give out?
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Replies
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Good thread! I pop in and out of the forums and have benefitted greatly from all the advice I received when I was just starting out here. I don't know if people find my posts helpful or not, but here are some things I suspect might work:
1. Look at the number of posts someone has before commenting. If it's a small number, i.e. if they're a newbie, pause for a moment before I post to remind myself that we were all new once. A lot of the things we learn on the boards by hanging out here for a while is brand new knowledge to most people. It's not intuitive. Accept that there will be people coming in every day who set their goals to lose 2lbs/week even though they're relatively small already, and who are wondering why their weight plateaued because they didn't lose 2 pounds this week.
2. Patience is a virtue. Keep telling myself that. Maybe I'll even believe it one day.
3. Try to keep fact separate from opinion. People don't have to do things my way. They just have to do things their way within the facts. Refrain from giving opinion or personal preference-based advice -- or if I do, heavily qualify it with "there's no obligation to do it this way, but this personally worked for me..." or something similar.
4. If I'm angry or peeved, log off. No need to spread those negative vibes.
5. Stickies! Agree with DianneTheGeek. Stickies are awesome! Point people towards them wherever possible.0 -
@diannethegeek, I've seen your copy and paste posts and they ARE very helpful. Here's the thing: unfortunately lots of people have short attention spans and some people just skip right over posts over a certain number of sentences. It's unfortunate because they are missing out on a lot of good info, but if they don't want to take the time to read a longer post then 9 times out of 10 they probably aren't ready to really learn about diet and weight loss.
I think you and @segacs are right: the stickies are awesome! But again, some posters just want quick-fix answers and don't put in the effort to research. There IS good advice given on these boards but you have to take the time to read and research which posts contain such advice.
Thanks for being such a concerned MFP member! I'm sure you help more people than you know.0 -
@diannethegeek, I've seen your copy and paste posts and they ARE very helpful. Here's the thing: unfortunately lots of people have short attention spans and some people just skip right over posts over a certain number of sentences. It's unfortunate because they are missing out on a lot of good info, but if they don't want to take the time to read a longer post then 9 times out of 10 they probably aren't ready to really learn about diet and weight loss.
I think you and @segacs are right: the stickies are awesome! But again, some posters just want quick-fix answers and don't put in the effort to research. There IS good advice given on these boards but you have to take the time to read and research which posts contain such advice.
Thanks for being such a concerned MFP member! I'm sure you help more people than you know.
Thanks. I'm really not trying to fish for compliments here or anything, but how we talk and read things online kind of fascinates me. I see the same problems in my job with people who answer the first question in an email and don't bother to read the rest of it. It seems to be how some people are hardwired.
They say that it takes someone 5 "touches" or reminders before someone will give a book or movie a chance. Sometimes I wonder if diet advice is the same. We're being bombarded by those damn fitness tips, commercials, and magazines that people are more likely to trust those above simple advice like calorie counting. Maybe repetition and bumping old posts is the key.0 -
When I was a newbie here, I remember asking a question about weight loss and the dreaded "why I am I not losing faster??" Question (I had lost 7lbs in about 6 weeks..which,looking back, is GREAT) . I remember them asking me to open up my diary and give stats...I gave my stats but never opened my diary.
But I just remember feeling like they were being mean, and telling myself that I was never going to go on those forums ever again. But I sat back and thought about it a while and realized that they weren't being mean...it was all in my perception because I was new. Actually, looking back they were just trying to be helpful, they just get the same questions day in and day out...who wouldn't get sick of that?
Everyone on here for the most part are extremely helpful, it can just seem scary when you first come on here and ask a question.
@diannethegeek your post has helped immensely, I actually go back and read it fr time to time just to remind myself. Thank you!
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Great thread. One thing that would help many threads: focusing on the question being asked.
We're all guilty of NOT doing that, myself included, but when I do go "off topic" I try to keep the OPs perspective in mind.0 -
Good thread! I pop in and out of the forums and have benefitted greatly from all the advice I received when I was just starting out here. I don't know if people find my posts helpful or not, but here are some things I suspect might work:
1. Look at the number of posts someone has before commenting. If it's a small number, i.e. if they're a newbie, pause for a moment before I post to remind myself that we were all new once. A lot of the things we learn on the boards by hanging out here for a while is brand new knowledge to most people. It's not intuitive. Accept that there will be people coming in every day who set their goals to lose 2lbs/week even though they're relatively small already, and who are wondering why their weight plateaued because they didn't lose 2 pounds this week.
2. Patience is a virtue. Keep telling myself that. Maybe I'll even believe it one day.
3. Try to keep fact separate from opinion. People don't have to do things my way. They just have to do things their way within the facts. Refrain from giving opinion or personal preference-based advice -- or if I do, heavily qualify it with "there's no obligation to do it this way, but this personally worked for me..." or something similar.
4. If I'm angry or peeved, log off. No need to spread those negative vibes.
5. Stickies! Agree with DianneTheGeek. Stickies are awesome! Point people towards them wherever possible.
I love this, it is a matter of patience that was being mentioned in the other thread. If you come across cranky or like a know it all people will not listen or learn. But that is not something a thread like this is going to change since it is a person by person choice. I think I notice it more than some because both of my jobs are in customer service and I see daily how a kind word can completely change a persons day.0 -
Changed my mind. Too grumpy for the boards today. :drinker:0
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Great post @diannethegeek ! I could only hope to be as helpful to posters here as I think that you and some others are... But anyway...
The types of responses that drive me crazy in the forums and I think often lead to things getting off track are sweeping generalizations and absolute statements. Things like, "well you are a short female so you must have a low TDEE and therefore have to set your cals at 1200 in order to lose". Or... "You can eat those foods and still lose weight but if you want to be healthy you MUST eat "clean".
The other one thing that I find unhelpful is when someone projects their own individual medical diagnosis on every single OP. Not every woman has PCOS, not every person who is overweight is insulin resistant, and not everyone needs to limit carbs, gluten, etc.
I try to frame my answers to avoid these particular scenarios and the inevitable arguments that ensue but when I do that see someone else making these type of statements I often try to refute them which I guess may also be unhelpful if it further derails the thread.0 -
This is a great idea for a thread.
I confess that I only give advice sporadically, and on topics that interest me or catch my fancy. But here are a few thoughts anyway:
- Many newbs are hypersensitive about their weight and the behaviors that brought them here. As such they may react poorly to blunt advice. We see this a lot. And I say this as someone who pretty much agrees with all the "mean people." Sometimes couching replies in kinder words - without hiding or diminishing the truth - might be productive.
- Sometimes we see a case where the OP asks a question and then multiple replies contradict the question or challenge the OP. Even though each individual who replies is being helpful, and going out of their way to respond, the result is that the OP may feel like they are being attacked because so many people respond negatively to the post. Often in all of those responses there are a few people who agree with the OP: "Yes, I've done a detox and I felt great!" or "Sure, raspberry ketones helped me lose 30 lbs", and the OP sees this agreement as support and clings to that response as the "supportive" one -- even though those answers are the least helpful! I'm not sure what do do about this except maybe to suggest people avoid "piling on".
- Stickies should be re-implemented immediately!
- I really wish there were some required probationary period. 95% (99%?) of questions that are asked here are ones that have been asked multiple times before. I lurked for a long time before I posted and learned a lot that way. Plus my feelings never got hurt.
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That's not what I said, I said focus on the question being asked. I didn't say give bad or dangerous advice.amyrebeccah wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Great thread. One thing that would help many threads: focusing on the question being asked.
Not always reasonable. For example "I heard that I can't eat less than 1200 calories because starvation mode will make me gain weight. What are some foods that will help me stay at 1200?"
Everyone only talks about calorie-dense foods.
Lurker A sees this and thinks "wow, I had no idea that starvation mode works like that"
I have no problem with people ALSO advising about calorie-dense foods, but why should they let such serious misinformation go by?
Threads like: how do I know if the treadmill calorie count is accurate, where people post: "don't do cardio, lift weights", or "go run outside".
Rather than simply focusing on the question being asked.
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- Sometimes we see a case where the OP asks a question and then multiple replies contradict the question or challenge the OP. Even though each individual who replies is being helpful, and going out of their way to respond, the result is that the OP may feel like they are being attacked because so many people respond negatively to the post. Often in all of those responses there are a few people who agree with the OP: "Yes, I've done a detox and I felt great!" or "Sure, raspberry ketones helped me lose 30 lbs", and the OP sees this agreement as support and clings to that response as the "supportive" one -- even though those answers are the least helpful! I'm not sure what do do about this except maybe to suggest people avoid "piling on".
This is one where I hope that providing more information or links to more information helps. "Piling on" is hard to stop sometimes because posters are typing as other posters are already saying the same things, so sometimes it looks like piling on but it's just several slow typers in the same thread at the same time (I've been guilty of this one often!). But I think that if even a few posters can provide more details about why they don't work or links to posts/sites that might help, it seems to be more likely to sink in.
Sometimes posters feel attacked and dig their heels in while the thread is still running, but they reconsider later as they absorb more information. Sometimes all they need is enough information for that reasonable doubt to creep up on them. My sister is like this. We'll have a huge blow out fight about something, she'll leave convinced she's right, and then come back three days later having changed her mind and thinking it was all her idea in the first place!
It's frustrating to see happen, but it goes back to the idea that we're posting not just for the OP, but also the lurkers and anyone who happens upon the thread later from a Google search or scan of the boards.- Stickies should be re-implemented immediately!
They're back! Or, at least the "must reads" posts with the links are back on top of each section. And they made a few slight changes and added some new links in some sections. Hopefully the newbies will find them!0 -
When I first joined and started lurking, under the profile pic it posted the year the poster joined MFP. I paid more attention to the advice of posters that had been around awhile, less to the newer posters. Yes, it's true that now you can see everyone's number of posts, but it's not the same. Some people post continually and up their numbers, without saying much of worth.
Sometimes I think new posters that can't take bluntness should have a special board to post on----with kid gloves, so to speak. People that want lots of information of all types, and, yes, even blunt posting should be on the regular boards. When you've been here for a few years you want discussions to take off on tangents, and debate so you can get new information. Things get boring otherwise. Just my two cents.0 -
amyrebeccah wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Great thread. One thing that would help many threads: focusing on the question being asked.
Not always reasonable. For example "I heard that I can't eat less than 1200 calories because starvation mode will make me gain weight. What are some foods that will help me stay at 1200?"
Everyone only talks about calorie-dense foods.
Lurker A sees this and thinks "wow, I had no idea that starvation mode works like that"
I have no problem with people ALSO advising about calorie-dense foods, but why should they let such serious misinformation go by?
Prefacing with an: this is all just my opinion, blah blah blah.
I think there are times when it makes sense to answer the question the OP doesn't realize they're even asking (ie. correcting misinformation or providing more guidance about the basics) as in your starvation mode example. But there are also times when the OP gets completely lost in the debate. Sugar threads or the recent processed foods thread are good examples. People sometimes lose sight of what the OP was even asking about and those threads stop being advice threads and become debate threads (imo). There's nothing wrong with debate threads, but it's a time-and-a-place thing, I think. It's hard to find the line sometimes until a thread has gone way past it, but I do think that some threads go too far.0 -
This is a great idea for a thread.
- Sometimes we see a case where the OP asks a question and then multiple replies contradict the question or challenge the OP. Even though each individual who replies is being helpful, and going out of their way to respond, the result is that the OP may feel like they are being attacked because so many people respond negatively to the post. Often in all of those responses there are a few people who agree with the OP: "Yes, I've done a detox and I felt great!" or "Sure, raspberry ketones helped me lose 30 lbs", and the OP sees this agreement as support and clings to that response as the "supportive" one -- even though those answers are the least helpful! I'm not sure what do do about this except maybe to suggest people avoid "piling on".
Unfortunately, I think you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
For example, OP says, "I think I am going through starvation mode because I am eating under 1200 cals, what are some healthy foods I should eat to bring my calories up?
First Reply: Starvation Mode doesn't work like that. Are you using a food scale? Oh, and here are some calorie dense foods.
I see this reply and decide not to reply, since that is exactly what I was going to say and I don't want to gang up on the OP. Five minutes later, I see there are 10 replies. And all the rest of the replies are about how the OP can avoid starvation mode and should start adding organic peanut butter to her diet. So guess what OP is going to do? Gain 5 lbs over the next two weeks.
So I have always thought everyone "gangs up" so that they outnumber the bad advice that is bound to find it's way in there. There is also the issue of multiple posters all posting at the same time.0 -
This is a great idea for a thread.
- Sometimes we see a case where the OP asks a question and then multiple replies contradict the question or challenge the OP. Even though each individual who replies is being helpful, and going out of their way to respond, the result is that the OP may feel like they are being attacked because so many people respond negatively to the post. Often in all of those responses there are a few people who agree with the OP: "Yes, I've done a detox and I felt great!" or "Sure, raspberry ketones helped me lose 30 lbs", and the OP sees this agreement as support and clings to that response as the "supportive" one -- even though those answers are the least helpful! I'm not sure what do do about this except maybe to suggest people avoid "piling on".
Unfortunately, I think you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
For example, OP says, "I think I am going through starvation mode because I am eating under 1200 cals, what are some healthy foods I should eat to bring my calories up?
First Reply: Starvation Mode doesn't work like that. Are you using a food scale? Oh, and here are some calorie dense foods.
I see this reply and decide not to reply, since that is exactly what I was going to say and I don't want to gang up on the OP. Five minutes later, I see there are 10 replies. And all the rest of the replies are about how the OP can avoid starvation mode and should start adding organic peanut butter to her diet. So guess what OP is going to do? Gain 5 lbs over the next two weeks.
So I have always thought everyone "gangs up" so that they outnumber the bad advice that is bound to find it's way in there. There is also the issue of multiple posters all posting at the same time.
Fair point.0 -
Maybe there should be some sort of burst on the Getting Started Forum and the Motivation and Support Forum that they are intended to be supportive and friendly. So newbies understand the other forums are free for all so not everyone will be whatever they define as "supportive"?
I don't know, I have to admit, I've never understood where all the mean people criticism comes from. But I'm a sarcastic and blunt New Yorker, so maybe I'm not the right person to make that determination
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This is a great idea for a thread.
- Sometimes we see a case where the OP asks a question and then multiple replies contradict the question or challenge the OP. Even though each individual who replies is being helpful, and going out of their way to respond, the result is that the OP may feel like they are being attacked because so many people respond negatively to the post. Often in all of those responses there are a few people who agree with the OP: "Yes, I've done a detox and I felt great!" or "Sure, raspberry ketones helped me lose 30 lbs", and the OP sees this agreement as support and clings to that response as the "supportive" one -- even though those answers are the least helpful! I'm not sure what do do about this except maybe to suggest people avoid "piling on".
Unfortunately, I think you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
For example, OP says, "I think I am going through starvation mode because I am eating under 1200 cals, what are some healthy foods I should eat to bring my calories up?
First Reply: Starvation Mode doesn't work like that. Are you using a food scale? Oh, and here are some calorie dense foods.
I see this reply and decide not to reply, since that is exactly what I was going to say and I don't want to gang up on the OP. Five minutes later, I see there are 10 replies. And all the rest of the replies are about how the OP can avoid starvation mode and should start adding organic peanut butter to her diet. So guess what OP is going to do? Gain 5 lbs over the next two weeks.
So I have always thought everyone "gangs up" so that they outnumber the bad advice that is bound to find it's way in there. There is also the issue of multiple posters all posting at the same time.
Fair point.
Maybe this could be eliminated with a +1 button or a like button? We definitely can't do thumbs up thumbs down, or more people will get their feelings hurt, but maybe just a positive button would allow people to "Vote UP" the good advice without ganging up on the OP?0 -
Edit: Oh, and also that people read the posts before answering if possible. Even doing a ctrl-f for "food scale" before asking "are you using a food scale?" when the OP has already answered the question would be greeeeat.
Yes. If a thread has gone past one or two pages and I know I'm too lazy to read through all of it, I at least try to skim through and see if the OP has come back to add more information before adding my two cents. That and reading the first and last posts to see if any thread drift has occurred.0 -
- I really wish there were some required probationary period. 95% (99%?) of questions that are asked here are ones that have been asked multiple times before. I lurked for a long time before I posted and learned a lot that way. Plus my feelings never got hurt.
I love the feature that my cell phone company has. When you go to the help section, you type in your question, and it automatically gives you a list of posts that it thinks are similar. If you still don't find your answer then you can select to make a new post. It could help lead people to answers that have already been written. That would be helpful to me, but I know some people wouldn't like it...
Dianne, I lurk a lot, and try to not give advise or comment unless I don't see someone else that already said what I think needs saying. There are about 5 people (you being one of them) that I love reading advise from. Every time I see it I re-read your list because it is an important reminder that I am not infallible and I should always consider that I am not doing everything right before I start thinking the universe (and the scale) are out to get me. I really hope you don't leave forums...
ETA: They should also implement a "Helpful" or "Like" button...0 -
amyrebeccah wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »amyrebeccah wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Great thread. One thing that would help many threads: focusing on the question being asked.
Not always reasonable. For example "I heard that I can't eat less than 1200 calories because starvation mode will make me gain weight. What are some foods that will help me stay at 1200?"
Everyone only talks about calorie-dense foods.
Lurker A sees this and thinks "wow, I had no idea that starvation mode works like that"
I have no problem with people ALSO advising about calorie-dense foods, but why should they let such serious misinformation go by?
Prefacing with an: this is all just my opinion, blah blah blah.
I think there are times when it makes sense to answer the question the OP doesn't realize they're even asking (ie. correcting misinformation or providing more guidance about the basics) as in your starvation mode example. But there are also times when the OP gets completely lost in the debate. Sugar threads or the recent processed foods thread are good examples. People sometimes lose sight of what the OP was even asking about and those threads stop being advice threads and become debate threads (imo). There's nothing wrong with debate threads, but it's a time-and-a-place thing, I think. It's hard to find the line sometimes until a thread has gone way past it, but I do think that some threads go too far.
Oh, I completely agree (witness the highly annoying exchanges that result when an OP happens to use the word "tone."). I just want to be sure that we're trying to strike an appropriate balance between answering the question and not allowing misinformation to persist.
Edit: Oh, and also that people read the posts before answering if possible. Even doing a ctrl-f for "food scale" before asking "are you using a food scale?" when the OP has already answered the question would be greeeeat.
Yes. Agreed. How many times does the OP need to be asked the same question?0
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