Fat shaming can kill?
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jennifer_417 wrote: »gaelicstorm26 wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
That's kinda my point. Im talking about the victim menatlity, rationalization and self-justification. It's how I felt in reaction to being shamed. But I overcame it.
That's great for you, but again, we must consider various factors when looking at how resilient people tend to be. Those who have extensive support networks, access to healthy food, and opportunities to learn about weight control will have a higher chance of being able to "overcome" (I don't like the usage of this word in the scenario but I'm keeping it because I'm referencing your post) perceived weight shaming.
Perceived shaming can be just as powerful for the person as actual shaming. The effects can be as profound.
I also really hate the term "victim mentality". I think it sounds very cavalier for what we are talking about, which is a group of people who are profoundly affected by either perceived or real "fat-shaming".
I'm not saying fat shaming isn't bad or painful. People really should stop doing, and i have compassion for those who have been or are going through it.
What I'm saying is, even when a person is a victim, they are still responsible for their own actions. I could tell you stories about being victimized that would mess up your whole day, but I'm still responsible for my own actions, and so is everyone else. It's not really compassion to say, "There, there, you're not responsible for your choices, 'cause that person was really mean to you."
Yea I think that's the real issue.
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xmichaelyx wrote: »2 things:
1) Correlation != causation. People who lead unhealthy lifestyles die early. We know this.
2) The methodology of this "study" is a joke because it relies 100% on a questionnaire. Think about it: Who is more likely to claim that they've experienced "weight discrimination"? A person who was obese but took control of the situation and decided to live a healthy lifestyle, or someone who spent their lives looking for excuses? Which of these 2 groups are more likely to die early?
There's no science here, just a weak correlation based on bad, anecdotal evidence.
I'm a professionally trained researcher, and wouldn't use this "study" to line a birdcage.When people eat the same, weigh the same, and live the same, as much as that can be created from the data, those who are discriminated against die earlier.
No, it shows that those who claim to be discriminated against may be more likely to die earlier, which is not at all the same thing.
1. Confounders were taken into account. It isn't perfect, but a statistically significant effect remains.
2. What does it matter if the person was actually discriminated against or merely felt it? How would you determine discrimination happened outside of the person's feelings of it?
Not sure what your area of research is, but if it is in the realm of psychology, you should already be aware of shame, excess stress, discrimination, and how they are not considered good for health.
Basically, the study authors used self-report of weight discrimination as a proxy for actual weight discrimination, controlled for what they could control for (because self-report is by it's nature very subjective and can be contaminated by any number of factors), and then at the end declared that weight discrimination makes you die quicker, in very strident terms, by the end of the article.
The problem with this study is there is any number of factors that could be contaminating why these subjects self-reported weight discrimination more than others, and they ended up examining very, very few. We could generate a fairly endless number of very legitimate covariates they would need to partial out of their model of "weight discrimination => increased mortality" data they say is supported here.
So, we're left with a few possibilities:
* People who self-report more weight discrimination ARE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING more weight discrimination, all other things being equal. More weight discrimination leads these subjects to die quicker (due to stress, I suppose) rather than losing weight and getting healthier.
* People who self-report more weight discrimination AREN'T actually experiencing more weight discrimination, but they report they experience it more, possibly because they find whatever experiences they have had to be more salient, therefore they over-estimate the frequency and degree to which they've experienced said discrimination. Reasons for this could be personality factors, other psychiatric factors.
* People who self-report more weight discrimination ARE actually experiencing more weight discrimination, but they experience it due to their propensity to put themselves in more contentious social situations. Perhaps they're social justice warriors or HAES activitists (who knows). Either way, they experience more discrimination as a consequence of their own need to have conflicts with others.
Possibly there are other explanations. I'm just thinking out loud here.
Best thing would be to have some lab studies that show this effect (e.g., that fat shaming leads to increases in health risks). That way we wouldn't have to depend on self-report studies.
Could there always be other factors? Sure, that's a limitation of cohort and population studies. Unfortunately, to do a strict, controlled study on the matter would be highly unethical. You can generate endless confounders but that is really distracting from the probable cause just because you want to preserver your own bias.
I have to ask though, is it really going to impact the core issue? I think anyone who thinks there isn't prejudice against the overweight is in denial. The fact that it exists allows people to perceive themselves as being discriminated against, and most likely, if we took actions as a society to prevent that prejudice, people perceiving themselves as having that discrimination would have less anxiety and shame about it, would they not? Unless your contention is that every single person impacted is purely delusion and making up paranoid prejudice to create their own anxiety.
Again, I'm going to say, purposely discriminating against people in a lab experiment to try to shorten their life span would be unethical.
Now are there studies that show people being discriminated against have higher stress when they perceive that discrimination and studies that show stress causes health problems?0 -
From other, similar studies, it looks like fat shaming is associated with weight gain - or the perception of having been fat shamed, to satisfy the pedantic. So, it seems to me, if people care about people staying or losing weight, fat shaming should be avoided.
I think it is worth asking what would be the intended action based on these studies.
Is anyone really opposed to asking people to have compassion towards the overweight? To consider there are factors that make losing weight harder? That people shouldn't assume things about people just because they're overweight?
On flip side, here's things the studies aren't suggesting (though HAES people, who are different than fat acceptance in general, might be asking for)
They aren't suggesting people to say being overweight is healthy.
They aren't suggesting doctors should never talk about weight with patients.
They aren't suggesting people find anyone attractive that they don't already find attractive.0 -
Char231023 wrote: »I don't know if I was reading it wrong but it doesn't read like they proved anything. They cannot say with definitive proof that fat shaming is what killed these people. All their research said was that the people that are fat shamed are more likely to become obese. The obesity related problems are what likely killed them not the fat shaming.
Now if they want to make a correlation to fat shaming leading to an increase of weight for an overweight person leading to obesity I can see that. Even a correlation between Fat shaming and depression.
The fat shaming in it self doesn't not cause death.
Exactly. If you took two groups, one skinny and one fat, and fat shamed them both equally which group would have more health related issues from obesity? Also discrimination is the wrong word to use here. It isn't discrimination when you point out that someone is making unhealthy choices.
I hate it when I see smokers forced to smoke outside. Such terrible discrimination shouldn't be allowed.
Your experimental design would not prove anything about whether fat shaming correlates to mortality rates (the subject of the study cited in the OP) or whether it correlates to "health-related issues from obesity" (as you have rephrased it). You would need to compare two groups of equally obese individuals, one that is subject to fat-shaming and one that is not, to be able to say anything about whether experiencing fat-shaming correlates to health outcomes.0 -
Did they ask those people what they deem fat-shaming?
Some professional victims consider the doctor telling them their fat is killing them shaming, or buying two airplane seats.0 -
^ Thinking some people missed or didn't read that part.Sutin points to a series of studies involving both experimental and epidemiological approaches examining links between weight discrimination and health. "Ours and other groups' epidemiological work converge with evidence from experimental research," Sutin said. "The experimental work shows the immediate effects of weightism and our work shows the consequence over the lifespan."0 -
If you check the study, the researchers accounted for BMI, subjective health, disease burden, depressive symptoms, smoking history, and physical activity as indicators of mortality risk.
I wouldn't overthink the study results too much. Their take-home point is pretty much that overt shaming and discrimination are associated with decreased satisfaction with life and increased chance of mortality. That's consistent with every study that's been done about the impact of stigma and discrimination.
It shouldn't be used as a basis for portraying overweight people as victims (but it will be). It's simply a reminder that treating people badly won't help them change, and being treated badly has negative long-term effects on health.
Yes!
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Whether or not it kills, it isn't nice. It does seem that being nasty to fat/skinny people (or about them, behind their backs) is the last socially acceptable bias. The fat are as guilty of shaming the thin, though.
I'm not one to worry about the opinions of the Professionally Offended, but I tend to agree that the body shaming should come to and end.0 -
Are... we sure that the risk of earlier death is not just because they are over weight? Did they take one overweight person and introduce them to only nice people for their lives to ensure they were never discriminated and then compare that to an overweight person (of same dimensions) who was only around mean people?
That being said... it would make sense. Stress does kill...0 -
Sheesh... SMH... That's all I got.
I deleted more than 40 posts from this discussion. There were 2 separate discussions going on here - one where we were discussing race (this was deleted), and one where we were discussing the OP (I did my best to leave these UNLESS they quoted a post from the 'other' conversation). They BEGAN as somewhat related, but the race discussion spiraled into the great unknown. The gifs made me laugh though, and saved me from getting completely irate at the discussion, so thanks.
I would like to draw your attention to the following community guidelines:4. Show Respect to All Groups and Individuals
No derogatory references to sex, gender, age, weight, body-type, disability, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, or endorsement of violence against any person or group, even if couched in humor, will be permitted. This includes expressing stereotypes about any group or community.and15. Divisive Topics Are Better Suited For Groups, Not the Main Forums
Divisive topics and posts, particularly those that seek input from or are relevant only to a select group of users, are better placed within an appropriate Group rather than the Main Forums. For example, topics relevant to only one religion should not be placed on the main forums but rather within a group related to that religion.Please, for the love of spongebob, keep the discussion on the OP (has the potential to be a really interesting discussion) and leave race and other divisive topics OUT of it. I've only got so many thread clean-ups in me before I throw in the towel and make the discussion go poof. Clean-ups make me sad...
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Still self-reported discrimination. Do you believe people who self-report fat shaming necessarily have the same mental outlook and coping mechanisms as those who don't?
"In both samples, the researchers accounted for BMI, subjective health, disease burden, depressive symptoms, smoking history, and physical activity as indicators of mortality risk, but the association with weight discrimination remained."DeguelloTex wrote: »
Or the apparent effects of their mental state regarding their perception of supposed discrimination.Now they've found that people who report being subjected to weight discrimination also have a greater risk of dying. Not because they may be overweight, but because of the apparent effects of the discrimination.
Accounting for subjective health and depressive symptoms would mitigate some of the issues of perception, though obviously not clear it.
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How do you hide being fat?DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
Most psychological studies on shame show it is appallingly poor at changing the behavior it targets. What it tends to do is drive people to hide the behavior from others.
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That's very cool and it's probably not easy to change a mindset like that. Congrats.jennifer_417 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
That's kinda my point. Im talking about the victim menatlity, rationalization and self-justification. It's how I felt in reaction to being shamed. But I overcame it.
My point is basically that the people likely to self-report are more likely to have the victim mentality and that it is the mentality that's probably a big part of their outlook on life, in general, and earlier mortality specifically.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you hide being fat?DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
Most psychological studies on shame show it is appallingly poor at changing the behavior it targets. What it tends to do is drive people to hide the behavior from others.
To be fair, I could never hide being fat, but I definitely learned at an early age to hide my eating. I'd rush home from school, make graham cracker and butter sandwiches and stuff as many as I could into my mouth before anyone else got home. I'd steal foods from the kitchen and hide it in my room to have easy access. I'd take foods that wouldn't really be noticed and learned to binge on odd things (and actually not necessarily things that tasted overly good, just wanted food). Hell, I'd fake being sick so that I could stay home and eat all day.
I wasn't particularly "fat shamed", but my mom was always overweight, and to "help" me she'd tell me when I was putting on weight, tell me she didn't want me to end up like her, and tell me when I was eating too much. And the day that I was in middle school and couldn't fit into clothes sold at normal stores and I had to go to the "fat people store" (and at the time, Layne Bryant only sold clothes that 40 year olds would want to be seen in), she started crying and then got very upset with me.0 -
All kinds of things. You avoid people in general, particularly those that shame you. You hide your eating / pretend to eat less, and then binge eat when not around other people, particularly when out of the presence of those you know.DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you hide being fat?DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
Most psychological studies on shame show it is appallingly poor at changing the behavior it targets. What it tends to do is drive people to hide the behavior from others.
I mean, we've both been on the board long enough to know that plenty of people write one thing in the diary, and complain about how they can't lose weight, showing others proudly how hard they've tried and seeking praise for their low state calories while still frustrated about not losing weight - and I'm not talking about people that haven't been told to use a food scale.
Though honestly, I'm not sure what the semantics of what hiding would look like - I use the terminology to speak about shaming in general.
To put it in other words, when someone shames you for something, you don't simply feel shame for what you do or what you are - you feel shame because of what that person said about what you do or are. Now, there are clearly two ways to avoid the punishment - avoid the person / situations, or avoid the behavior. One of those carries the negative that you have to actually give up something enjoyable (eating in this case) and the other you just have to avoid people (certain or all).
Could some people be more liable to perceive being shamed because it is self reported? Sure. Does it really mean that's what is causing the health effect? Well given Sultin refers to clinic experiments that show short term effects on people, and says this is just epidemiological data to try to gauge that impact, I'd say at least some portion of it has to be purely about the experience and not just being a sensitive snowflake. I don't see how much it changes the recommendation - I'd say it points to less shaming either way. What is the alternative? Just accepting some people are sensitive and we're ok with them dying prematurely for it? Giving people counseling to toughen up?0 -
Whether there's an alternative doesn't really change the underlying issue, does it?
All kinds of things. You avoid people in general, particularly those that shame you. You hide your eating / pretend to eat less, and then binge eat when not around other people, particularly when out of the presence of those you know.DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you hide being fat?DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
Most psychological studies on shame show it is appallingly poor at changing the behavior it targets. What it tends to do is drive people to hide the behavior from others.
I mean, we've both been on the board long enough to know that plenty of people write one thing in the diary, and complain about how they can't lose weight, showing others proudly how hard they've tried and seeking praise for their low state calories while still frustrated about not losing weight - and I'm not talking about people that haven't been told to use a food scale.
Though honestly, I'm not sure what the semantics of what hiding would look like - I use the terminology to speak about shaming in general.
To put it in other words, when someone shames you for something, you don't simply feel shame for what you do or what you are - you feel shame because of what that person said about what you do or are. Now, there are clearly two ways to avoid the punishment - avoid the person / situations, or avoid the behavior. One of those carries the negative that you have to actually give up something enjoyable (eating in this case) and the other you just have to avoid people (certain or all).
Could some people be more liable to perceive being shamed because it is self reported? Sure. Does it really mean that's what is causing the health effect? Well given Sultin refers to clinic experiments that show short term effects on people, and says this is just epidemiological data to try to gauge that impact, I'd say at least some portion of it has to be purely about the experience and not just being a sensitive snowflake. I don't see how much it changes the recommendation - I'd say it points to less shaming either way. What is the alternative? Just accepting some people are sensitive and we're ok with them dying prematurely for it? Giving people counseling to toughen up?
Granting that some portion is about the experience itself, it still doesn't mean that the results aren't overstated as a result of the particular kind of sensitive snowflake who self-reports mean people.
The recommendation is fine. I recommend that people commit fewer crimes. Let's see how depending on the general good nature of human beings works out for us. In the meantime, I'll carry a gun and not give a dingo's kidney whether someone thinks I'm too fat, too tall, too insensitive, or too whatever.
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JustSomeEm wrote: »Sheesh... SMH... That's all I got.
I deleted more than 40 posts from this discussion. There were 2 separate discussions going on here - one where we were discussing race (this was deleted), and one where we were discussing the OP (I did my best to leave these UNLESS they quoted a post from the 'other' conversation). They BEGAN as somewhat related, but the race discussion spiraled into the great unknown. The gifs made me laugh though, and saved me from getting completely irate at the discussion, so thanks.
I would like to draw your attention to the following community guidelines:4. Show Respect to All Groups and Individuals
No derogatory references to sex, gender, age, weight, body-type, disability, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, or endorsement of violence against any person or group, even if couched in humor, will be permitted. This includes expressing stereotypes about any group or community.and15. Divisive Topics Are Better Suited For Groups, Not the Main Forums
Divisive topics and posts, particularly those that seek input from or are relevant only to a select group of users, are better placed within an appropriate Group rather than the Main Forums. For example, topics relevant to only one religion should not be placed on the main forums but rather within a group related to that religion.Please, for the love of spongebob, keep the discussion on the OP (has the potential to be a really interesting discussion) and leave race and other divisive topics OUT of it. I've only got so many thread clean-ups in me before I throw in the towel and make the discussion go poof. Clean-ups make me sad...
Cheers,
JustSomeEm
Thank God. But it's a little late. I couldn't believe the number of offensive posts.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
Whether there's an alternative doesn't really change the underlying issue, does it?
All kinds of things. You avoid people in general, particularly those that shame you. You hide your eating / pretend to eat less, and then binge eat when not around other people, particularly when out of the presence of those you know.DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you hide being fat?DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
Most psychological studies on shame show it is appallingly poor at changing the behavior it targets. What it tends to do is drive people to hide the behavior from others.
I mean, we've both been on the board long enough to know that plenty of people write one thing in the diary, and complain about how they can't lose weight, showing others proudly how hard they've tried and seeking praise for their low state calories while still frustrated about not losing weight - and I'm not talking about people that haven't been told to use a food scale.
Though honestly, I'm not sure what the semantics of what hiding would look like - I use the terminology to speak about shaming in general.
To put it in other words, when someone shames you for something, you don't simply feel shame for what you do or what you are - you feel shame because of what that person said about what you do or are. Now, there are clearly two ways to avoid the punishment - avoid the person / situations, or avoid the behavior. One of those carries the negative that you have to actually give up something enjoyable (eating in this case) and the other you just have to avoid people (certain or all).
Could some people be more liable to perceive being shamed because it is self reported? Sure. Does it really mean that's what is causing the health effect? Well given Sultin refers to clinic experiments that show short term effects on people, and says this is just epidemiological data to try to gauge that impact, I'd say at least some portion of it has to be purely about the experience and not just being a sensitive snowflake. I don't see how much it changes the recommendation - I'd say it points to less shaming either way. What is the alternative? Just accepting some people are sensitive and we're ok with them dying prematurely for it? Giving people counseling to toughen up?
Granting that some portion is about the experience itself, it still doesn't mean that the results aren't overstated as a result of the particular kind of sensitive snowflake who self-reports mean people.
The recommendation is fine. I recommend that people commit fewer crimes. Let's see how depending on the general good nature of human beings works out for us. In the meantime, I'll carry a gun and not give a dingo's kidney whether someone thinks I'm too fat, too tall, too insensitive, or too whatever.
It is wonderful for you that you "don't care" about others perceptions of you.
Others are less 'fortunate', they do hurt and struggle when they feel 'shamed', they feel inferior to others and the stress that it causes them and how they then deal with that stress is probably best left to self-reporting, even with all of its flaws, research wise.0 -
Again, they can cope better or hope for a substantial, quick increase in the manners of other humans. What other option do you see?HippySkoppy wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Whether there's an alternative doesn't really change the underlying issue, does it?
All kinds of things. You avoid people in general, particularly those that shame you. You hide your eating / pretend to eat less, and then binge eat when not around other people, particularly when out of the presence of those you know.DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you hide being fat?DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
Most psychological studies on shame show it is appallingly poor at changing the behavior it targets. What it tends to do is drive people to hide the behavior from others.
I mean, we've both been on the board long enough to know that plenty of people write one thing in the diary, and complain about how they can't lose weight, showing others proudly how hard they've tried and seeking praise for their low state calories while still frustrated about not losing weight - and I'm not talking about people that haven't been told to use a food scale.
Though honestly, I'm not sure what the semantics of what hiding would look like - I use the terminology to speak about shaming in general.
To put it in other words, when someone shames you for something, you don't simply feel shame for what you do or what you are - you feel shame because of what that person said about what you do or are. Now, there are clearly two ways to avoid the punishment - avoid the person / situations, or avoid the behavior. One of those carries the negative that you have to actually give up something enjoyable (eating in this case) and the other you just have to avoid people (certain or all).
Could some people be more liable to perceive being shamed because it is self reported? Sure. Does it really mean that's what is causing the health effect? Well given Sultin refers to clinic experiments that show short term effects on people, and says this is just epidemiological data to try to gauge that impact, I'd say at least some portion of it has to be purely about the experience and not just being a sensitive snowflake. I don't see how much it changes the recommendation - I'd say it points to less shaming either way. What is the alternative? Just accepting some people are sensitive and we're ok with them dying prematurely for it? Giving people counseling to toughen up?
Granting that some portion is about the experience itself, it still doesn't mean that the results aren't overstated as a result of the particular kind of sensitive snowflake who self-reports mean people.
The recommendation is fine. I recommend that people commit fewer crimes. Let's see how depending on the general good nature of human beings works out for us. In the meantime, I'll carry a gun and not give a dingo's kidney whether someone thinks I'm too fat, too tall, too insensitive, or too whatever.
It is wonderful for you that you "don't care" about others perceptions of you.
Others are less 'fortunate', they do hurt and struggle when they feel 'shamed', they feel inferior to others and the stress that it causes them and how they then deal with that stress is probably best left to self-reporting, even with all of its flaws, research wise.
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