Protein? Eating 6-8 times a day?

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Replies

  • johnwhitent
    johnwhitent Posts: 648 Member
    Perhaps I did not make clear why I was citing the experts as I did. I am not "awed by their credentials" at all. Up to that point in the conversation no proof had been advanced to support the position that mapexdrummer69 and others had taken - just assertions. Go back and read the posts in order and you will see that I am right (and guilty as well.) I cited experts to bring the conversation up from just one person’s assertion against another’s. I introduced expert opinion rather than personal assertion. I was accused of being misinformed and felt it appropriate to cite the sources of my information. Their education and expertise does not awe me but simply illustrates that I am not making things up. Subsequently several post have been made to substantiate mapexdrummer69 and similar opinions with blogs and studies. Now this is progress! Folks I'm here to learn and grow not to prove my point.

    I totally agree that we should be making decisions based on empirical evidence from controlled studies of the highest quality, not opinion. Posting these links advances that cause and I am appreciative that they were posted. I have now read all of the cited works including most of the references and I am better informed. But that does not mean that I embrace all that is contained there. I have read too much to the contrary and my own experience with smaller more frequent meals has been excellent, though personal experience is of no value to anyone but the person experiencing it! And personal experience also shows me that eating protein throughout the day helps me feel full and eat less, regardless of how my body handles it. Again, that is personal and of no import to anyone else, but for me it confirms what I have been taught by respected experts. Their recommendations have led to success for me in health and fitness and I will continue to follow their advice.

    It is unfortunate that I cannot post links since my information came from books and a radio show rather than the internet. But I did cite the authors and the books so anyone so inclined can check the information. Thank you all for the lively conversation.
  • irridia
    irridia Posts: 527 Member
    captain obvious here: Unless you are diabetic/pre diabetic and then it absolutely DOES matter and make a difference, and carbs should be consumed w/a protien, some fiber, or fat to slow down glucogenisis. I only point out because I'm often amazed at how many people with diabetes or who've been diagnoses as pre-diabetic don't actually know about their condition and how foods affect their blood sugar.

    :bigsmile:
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
    captain obvious here: Unless you are diabetic/pre diabetic and then it absolutely DOES matter and make a difference, and carbs should be consumed w/a protien, some fiber, or fat to slow down glucogenisis. I only point out because I'm often amazed at how many people with diabetes or who've been diagnoses as pre-diabetic don't actually know about their condition and how foods affect their blood sugar.

    :bigsmile:
    Glucogenesis? Glycogenesis? Or gluconeogenesis?

    You said, "UNLESS you are prediabetic/diabetic." Did you mean to say, "ONLY if you are prediabetic/diabetic does meal timing matter"?
  • mapexdrummer69
    mapexdrummer69 Posts: 445
    My apologies,


    Please view this link for empirical studies on meal frequency:


    http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Meal Frequency
  • irridia
    irridia Posts: 527 Member
    captain obvious here: Unless you are diabetic/pre diabetic and then it absolutely DOES matter and make a difference, and carbs should be consumed w/a protien, some fiber, or fat to slow down glucogenisis. I only point out because I'm often amazed at how many people with diabetes or who've been diagnoses as pre-diabetic don't actually know about their condition and how foods affect their blood sugar.

    :bigsmile:
    Glucogenesis? Glycogenesis? Or gluconeogenesis?

    You said, "UNLESS you are prediabetic/diabetic." Did you mean to say, "ONLY if you are prediabetic/diabetic does meal timing matter"?

    I can't speak to it mattering unless you in fact are diabetic or pre. In that case I know it matters. and I actually don't remember the med term for converting food to glucose... *snickering* I was hungry when I wote that and I'm hitting my protien after a hard work out so no blood for my brain currently... lol.
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
    I can't speak to it mattering unless you in fact are diabetic or pre. In that case I know it matters. and I actually don't remember the med term for converting food to glucose... *snickering* I was hungry when I wote that and I'm hitting my protien after a hard work out so no blood for my brain currently... lol.
    Yes, when you have some sort of clinical condition, then your meal's composition can be important. Outside of those who are diabetic/insulin resistant, however, it doesn't matter.

    Gluconeogenesis = conversion of fat/amino acids to glucose. Glycogenesis = conversion of glycogen to glucose.
  • Troll
    Troll Posts: 922 Member
    Trust me, protien changes everything. I weigh 107 lbs and try to get 2 g per pound of bodyweight (not just the lean weight). I do heavy training, though.

    Most people balk at the 6-8 rule, but i try not to eat more than about 300 calories at every meal, based on what i need to get in a day.

    If you're worried about the excess protien messing up your food intake, i suggest Nectar (juice flavored) protein powder, it's 100 calories, no carbs and no sugar (or aspartame) per scoop with 24 g protein. For a protein powder it's also low in sodium and so far the peach is the only flavor i disliked. I keep one in the fridge and swig on it all day on top of the several protien replacement meal bars i eat (i am notorious for forgetting to eat my meals, i have an alarm set on my phone to remind me!)

    It sounds crazy, but 1-1.5 g/pound of weight helps to build MORE lean muscle which burns even MORE fat faster.
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
    Well, there are SOME advantages to more frequent, smaller meals...only in that after a certain calorie limit (which varies from person to person, but let's say between 400-800), your body will just convert the extra to fat because it exceeds what is useable at the time.

    So if you are eating three big meals, like 800-1000 calories each (which I'm guessing you aren't, since you're on this site), then switching to the six small meals would be better. For some people who tend to eat two tiny meals and a huge dinner, that's why they see weight loss when they switch to six smaller meals.

    If you are spreading out your calories more or less evenly and eating what MFP (or another site or a dcotor) has calculated as the right amount of total calories per day for your height/weight, then you should be fine, whether it's three meals or six or ten.

    This is not an advantage because it is incorrect. It will just take longer to digest. The TEF (thermic effect of food) is the same at the end of the day.
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
    One more link on the topic of meal frequency myths
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-ten-fasting-myths-debunked.html

    I've done 3 meals per day and lost fat, I've done 6 meals per day and lost fat and I've done 2 meals per day (leangains style IF) and lost fat.

    Do whatever works for you.
  • jessievb87
    jessievb87 Posts: 8
    Wow, this turned into a lively topic! Thanks all for your input and the references. It sounds like info conflicts, but most seem to be a fan of doing what works for you.
  • Oishii
    Oishii Posts: 2,675 Member
    As this thread has gathered some very knowledgeable followers, I'd like to know if there is any scientific evidence for the g/lb approach to protein?
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
    As this thread has gathered some very knowledgeable followers, I'd like to know if there is any scientific evidence for the g/lb approach to protein?

    Damn it. Just lost a massive post.

    Read this by Lyle McDonal :)

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-sensitivity-and-fat-loss.html

    Before going on, I want to mention that protein recommendations tend not to vary that significantly between diets and most of the arguments tend to revolve around the varying proportions of carbohydrate and fats in the diet and that’s what I’ll be focusing on here. Simply, I don’t consider low-protein fat loss diets in the equation at all for the simple fact that they don’t work for anybody but the extremely obese. Any dieting bodybuilder or athlete needs 1-1.5 g/lb lean body mass of protein on a diet. Possibly more under certain circumstances.

    and

    If you have good insulin sensitivity and low insulin secretion, odds are you will do well with a traditional bodybuilding type of diet which means high protein, highish carbs and low fat. Let’s say you’re consuming 1 g/lb of protein at 12 cal/lb. That’s 33% protein. If you go to 1.5 g/lb, that’s 50% protein. That leaves you with 50-67% of your calories to allocate between fat and carbohydrate. 15-20% dietary fat is about the lower limit as it becomes impossible to get sufficient essential fatty acids below that intake level. So, at 1 g/lb, your diet will be roughly 33% protein, 47-52% carbs (call it 45-50%) and 15-20% fat. If protein goes to 50% of the total, carbs should come down to 35% of the total with 15% fat.
    If you’re not insulin sensitive and/or have high insulin secretion, a diet lower in carbs and higher in fat (don’t forget that protein can raise insulin as well) is a better choice. Assuming, again, 40% protein, a good starting place might be 40% protein, 20-30% carbs and 20-30% fat. A further shift to a near ketogenic (or cyclical ketogenic) diet may be necessary, 40% protein, 10-20% carbs and the remainder fat may be the most effective. If protein is set higher, up to 50% protein, carbs would be set at 10-20% with the remainder (20-30%) coming from dietary fat.
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    I think my question goes here... but if there's a more appropriate place for it, then please let me know and I'll move it to the appropriate spot.

    I meet with a personal trainer on Monday and we talked briefly about nutrition. I'm uncertain about two of his suggestions. First he suggested that I eat 6-8 times a day rather than the 3 meals and a snack that I've been eating. He also suggested that I should be eating 1g of protein per pound of my lean body weight. According to my total weight and body fat percentage, he calculates that I have about 110 lb of lean weight. So, he says I should be eating about 110g of protein a day.

    My concerns are that it seems that eating 6-8 times a day may provide more calories than I need and may encourage me to overeat and that 110g of protein is far more than I need (especially since I'm only doing light to moderate strength training).

    The entire eat 6-8x a day has multiple implications. One is it speeds up metabolism, that is a lie. Another reason people say to eat 6-8 times a day, so they're constantly satisfied throughout the day so they don't have a tendency to binge.

    A guy on one of my post who seems pretty experience said eating 6-8x a day will create better nitrogen retention, which is very important for muscle mass.

    The last 2 things make sense. I haven't verified anything about the nitrogen retention and I haven't looked, so I can't say if it's true or not.

    I personally eat one large meal a day around 1500 - 2000 calories. When you do it, it prevents fat oxidation(prevents you form losing body fat) yes you can lose it, it just takes more exercise. Eating multiple times a day also constantly spikes insulin, which I am don't want to reduce body fat.

    You might find the following research informative.

    fasting burns 5 times more fat.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12051710

    Weight training prevents muscle loss on a low calorie diet
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10204826

    Multiple feedings has no effect on the BMR or Active metabolic rate
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8399092

    gherlin triggers Growth Hormone
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/293/3/E819.full

    breakfast slows down oxidation
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10967612

    fasting longer than 6hrs increases fat oxidation,
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212756

    eating late verses early
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3508745

    skipping breakfast
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10967612
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    As this thread has gathered some very knowledgeable followers, I'd like to know if there is any scientific evidence for the g/lb approach to protein?

    That is slightly inaccurate 1gram of protein for lean body mass for an athlete. Sedentary individuals need .5 x lbs of lean mass.
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    Perhaps I did not make clear why I was citing the experts as I did. I am not "awed by their credentials" at all. Up to that point in the conversation no proof had been advanced to support the position that mapexdrummer69 and others had taken - just assertions. Go back and read the posts in order and you will see that I am right (and guilty as well.) I cited experts to bring the conversation up from just one person’s assertion against another’s. I introduced expert opinion rather than personal assertion. I was accused of being misinformed and felt it appropriate to cite the sources of my information. Their education and expertise does not awe me but simply illustrates that I am not making things up. Subsequently several post have been made to substantiate mapexdrummer69 and similar opinions with blogs and studies. Now this is progress! Folks I'm here to learn and grow not to prove my point.

    I totally agree that we should be making decisions based on empirical evidence from controlled studies of the highest quality, not opinion. Posting these links advances that cause and I am appreciative that they were posted. I have now read all of the cited works including most of the references and I am better informed. But that does not mean that I embrace all that is contained there. I have read too much to the contrary and my own experience with smaller more frequent meals has been excellent, though personal experience is of no value to anyone but the person experiencing it! And personal experience also shows me that eating protein throughout the day helps me feel full and eat less, regardless of how my body handles it. Again, that is personal and of no import to anyone else, but for me it confirms what I have been taught by respected experts. Their recommendations have led to success for me in health and fitness and I will continue to follow their advice.

    It is unfortunate that I cannot post links since my information came from books and a radio show rather than the internet. But I did cite the authors and the books so anyone so inclined can check the information. Thank you all for the lively conversation.

    I completely agree with you, I got a lot of information from books, I mentioned what i came across and people would criticize because I had no "scientific evidence" when i found the evidence, they shut up about it. I did complete the NASM(National Academy Of Sports Medicine Personal Trainer Course) I never actually trained anyone. Just did it for myself. I do have a quiet a few friends who are personal trainers, I can tell you... they are not nutritionist. They just repeat common BS that is found in the fitness community which is usually inaccurate.
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    Here is an article by Alan Aragon addressing the 20-30gram protein limit:
    http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

    I will quote near the bottom.
    "For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet [13]. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups.

    In another example, Stote and colleagues actually reported an improvement in body composition (including an increase in lean mass) after 8 weeks in the IF group consuming one meal per day, where roughly 86 g protein was ingested in a 4-hour window [14]."

    That fasting group only consumed 1 meal a day. Based on the 20/4 split, it sounds like they were using the warrior diet.
    Haha, should have seen this post before referring to the same sources.

    I do the warrior diet, about the amount of "protein you can process" I can see what you're saying being true. People don't realize, that when you fast, it increases Growth Hormone, which can help increase muscle mass, and it also burns a lot of fat. You don't get this benefit from multiple feedings a day.
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    So, out of all of this, I think it's safe to gather that meal timing, size, and frequency have no metabolic advantages.


    All comes to personal preference.

    You're right it as no "METABOLIC" advantages. There are a TON of HORMONAL advantages on how you eat and when you eat.
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    Eating several times a day helps your body avoid insulin spikes due to having depleted all of the glucose in your system, and waiting for a meal. If you are working out regularly, and adding weight training, your body will consume more calories (obviously). In order to avoid fatigue and reduce the natural tendency for your body to start breaking down your newly gained muscle, you should eat something every few hours.

    I target 5-6 meals a day (every three hours or as hungry) Breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner...and another snack if Im still hungry (or havent met my caloric intake). Agreed it doesnt matter when you eat for weight loss, but by helping your body to burn fat vs. muscle is a much better choice for sustainable weighloss and increasing your metabolism.

    Note on the protien, if you are taking powder (I do in small amounts to compensate for what I dont get in my diet otherwise), make sure you are drinking plenty of water...all that additional protien can be brutal on your kidneys.

    Each time you eat, insulin will spike.
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
    asmcriminal: what is the warrior diet protocol for peri workout nutrition? Fasted training and BCAA's like Leangains suggests?
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    asmcriminal: what is the warrior diet protocol for peri workout nutrition? Fasted training and BCAA's like Leangains suggests?

    During the fasting phase, you can easy some what. He breaks it down like this under eating phase, and over eating phase. You can eat in the under eating phase, but keep it strictly to vegetables or light fruits. If you feel you need protein, then add a little.

    You can have a post workout meal. This is what I remember, has been a long time since i read the book. I am actually doing a modified diet, part of it is warrior diet, and some other things.
  • mapexdrummer69
    mapexdrummer69 Posts: 445
    So, out of all of this, I think it's safe to gather that meal timing, size, and frequency have no metabolic advantages.


    All comes to personal preference.

    You're right it as no "METABOLIC" advantages. There are a TON of HORMONAL advantages on how you eat and when you eat.


    Curious...can you elaborate on the hormonal advantages?
  • registers
    registers Posts: 782 Member
    So, out of all of this, I think it's safe to gather that meal timing, size, and frequency have no metabolic advantages.


    All comes to personal preference.

    You're right it as no "METABOLIC" advantages. There are a TON of HORMONAL advantages on how you eat and when you eat.


    Curious...can you elaborate on the hormonal advantages?

    okay...
    Insulin - Is increased when high amounts of calories are consumed, or when you eat carbohydrates. It stores blood sugar in the muscle, once the muscles are full it will convert it in to body fat. The purpose is when blood sugars are high, it will clear the blood of blood sugar to bring it back to a normal level.

    Glucagon - Is the opposite of insulin, when blood sugar is low it takes blood sugar(glycogen in this case) out of the muscle and puts it back in to the blood stream. The purpose is to return the sugar back in to the blood stream so it's at a normal level.

    Growth Hormone - This does many things, has an anti aging effect, preserves/increases muscle, burns fat. The purpose of it is to improve cell growth.

    I personally eat one time a day, about 1500 - 2000 calories. On my peak days, I eat anywhere from 3000 - 5000 calories within 2 - 4hrs.

    I pretty much fast during the day, and eat at night. If you don't eat during the day, what will happen to blood sugar? It will decline, when it gets low glucagon is raised to release carbs from the muscles. This will help you get more of your energy from body fat. When you're hungry (which you usually are when you fast) this is a form of stress, this will increase growth hormone levels. When you do high intensity exercise(stress) it also releases growth hormone level. Same thing, it's released in times of stress. The benefits of this is that it preserves your muscle tissue, and it also burns fat (now you're burning fat from 2 sources, low glucose levels and high GH levels). People say "eating gives you energy" sure......... when you eat a big meal, do you feel like you have a ton of energy? No, you get all tired and lethargic. This is due because when you eat you trigger the parasympathetic nervous system. When you DONT EAT, this triggers the sympathetic nervous system, this is your "Fight or flight" mechanism(you're under stress remember?) this gives you adrenaline and as I said before GH. You ever been really hungry, are you there all tired saying "i am hungry?" No, you're eager, you're kind of irritated, determined in some ways.

    Imagine if you're out in the wild, you haven't eaten for a few days, and you see an animal you can kill, it's a little dangerous. I think most people are willing to fight it so they can eat. How would you feel? eager, determined to get the animal. This is your adrenaline released under stress. I am sure you seen some survival things on tv. Do they just say "i am tired, just going to die here." No, it doesn't work that way.

    When you do eat it increases insulin. I already explained what this does.

    Most of the biochemical responses I mentioned, you can't get it from eating multiple times a day. Because you will never be hungry and will never release growth hormone and never have high glucagon levels. Another thing, I supposedly need to eat about 3000 calories a day for my BMR. If I eat high quality food, I'll be lucky if I eat 1500 calories. This will cause an automatic reduction in calories. Which is obviously what we want to lose weight, and lower caloric intake has been linked to longer life span. I already posted some links on this topic in a earlier post that supports what I have said.
  • mapexdrummer69
    mapexdrummer69 Posts: 445
    Just saw you posted links...I'll read the studies and respond on my lunch break. Thanks!
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