I have a question about calorie deficit
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I would look into getting a blender and learn how to make nutritious smoothies. You can add any combination of fruits and veggies, plus a yummy tasting protein powder. I have one everyday for lunch, it is filling, tasty and nutritious.0
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ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
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This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
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ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
Yeah, weird, weird, weird rabbit trail eric started this discussion down.
So not helpful to the poor OP.
The guy needs to eat more. Timing doesn't matter.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
Yeah, weird, weird, weird rabbit trail eric started this discussion down.
So not helpful to the poor OP.
The guy needs to eat more. Timing doesn't matter.
^ Absolutely correct, that's the bottom line. The OP needs to eat more and he doesn't need fiction shoved down his throat that eating at night will make him fat and make his muscles fall off.0 -
Some more protein, ditch the energy drink BS and choose the full fat versions of dairy would be a good start.0
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Some more protein, ditch the energy drink BS and choose the full fat versions of dairy would be a good start.
He has the calories for the energy drink AND the dairy. He has already made huge strides by quitting sweets and snacks, so robbing himself of his last joys would be counterproductive to his diet. If later along the way he decides to reduce his energy drink intake even further, that would be his choice and only when he is comfortable enough that he would be able to keep it up.0 -
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
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ericGold15 wrote: »
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
Ok
Given the context, what's your actual point of bringing this up? The OP is creating a deficit that's a minimum of 1300 calories per day, and does not understand the need to eat more food. He's being told it's okay to consume a 250 calorie drink given his deficit, and some are trying to explain a point that's making no contact, which is eat more food or at least protein to avoid breakdown of vital muscle like, oh, I don't know, the heart, in the name of dieting. What's the helpfulness of the information you're providing, given this context? I honestly do not understand and it's possible others don't as well
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ericGold15 wrote: »
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
He's drinking a 250 calorie drink at night. Not carb loading. How are you helping him? Just... start another thread or something, okay?
This guy needs more protein and calories to retain lean mass. Your point has nothing to do with his situation.0 -
I don't need any preaching about the health risks of energy drinks I am all too familar with those, but my question is, even if my calorie intake is between 1200-1400 calories per day which includes 1 high calorie drink in the evening, and I still going to be losing weight? or will that one sugary drink ruin everything and I will gain weight?
Your internal organs might be gaining a coating of fat from the energy drink, so I would consider the sugar free version and some alternative more nutritious calorie source.
If you're referring to the idea of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and the Lustig hypothesis that it is caused by hepatic denovolipogenesis of fructose... again, he's in a calorie deficit. His body isn't going to be looking for ways to perform de novo lipogensis to incredible amounts because his body is looking at mobilizing fats to burn to make up for the deficit.
I'm pretty sure in the millions of years of liver evolution and habitual starvation during it, the signal has evolved to avoid wasting turning sugars into fats during energy deficit that mobilizes removing fats.0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
From your own article, glycogen storage capacity is around 15 g/ kg. Even for a man at a normal 165 lb weight (depending on height), that's still 75kg of body mass, resulting in 75kg*15grams/kg = 1125grams of glucose stored. Is OP downing 4400 calories or more (particularly if overweight) of energy drinks at night? If so, yeah, cut back OP, 4400 calories of energy drinks is going to make losing weight hard regardless of de novo lipogensis.0 -
@Mosiak
I am someone who doesn't enjoy eating breakfast and lunch too. Hate the full feeling.
I have found a protein bar, I stock up on a wide variety of them at Costco, and orange along with my coffee gives me an easy to manage breakfast.
Lunch is usually either cottage cheese or yogurt with a selection of fruit and veg on the side, pre chopping in bulk and keeping them in containers in the fridge makes it easy. Again this is a decent amount of calories, eat full fat dairy, and protein, without having an uncomfortable feeling of fullness during the day.
Once you have got used to eating at those times ( I do find it helpful to do so) you can increase the foods density.
Well done on what you have accomplished so far, and for reaching out for guidance.
Cheers, h.0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
You do notice that muscle breakdown during exercise is due to empty glycogen, and thus those two things are mutually exclusive unless you eat so much carbs as to fill up your glycogen from 0 to full and then some?0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »[...Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth...
You're thoroughly confused. I did not call de novo lipogenesis a myth. I'm well aware that such a thing exists. What I called a myth was when you started spouting foolishness about calorie intake at night making you gain weight. If you truly believe that, I'll just disengage and let you enjoy your ignorance.0
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