Ontario Officials Rule Veganism is a Human Right Legally Protected from Discrimination
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Veganism isn't some weird thing nobody knows about and it is more than just a diet. The same way one should respect a request for halal food, one should respect a request for vegan food. It's not hard, people.0
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Escloflowne wrote: »If you're going to make Halal or Kosher available, this is fair. It's the same thing in the end, it's a belief system, the fact that one of them is a religion doesn't mean it's more important, in my opinion.
Isn't a religion nothing but a belief system? Is there a difference in definition? I was a religious studies major, so that's an extremely interesting idea to me.
Edited for spelling.0 -
CorvusCorax77 wrote: »Veganism isn't some weird thing nobody knows about and it is more than just a diet. The same way one should respect a request for halal food, one should respect a request for vegan food. It's not hard, people.
I'm actually amazed at the number of people who just view veganism as a diet...0 -
CorvusCorax77 wrote: »Veganism isn't some weird thing nobody knows about and it is more than just a diet. The same way one should respect a request for halal food, one should respect a request for vegan food. It's not hard, people.
I'm actually amazed at the number of people who just view veganism as a diet...
And a fad diet at that. But you clearly can't argue that it has reached that place where it has become a fad diet for many and, I believe due to this, is lumped into that category.0 -
Escloflowne wrote: »If you're going to make Halal or Kosher available, this is fair. It's the same thing in the end, it's a belief system, the fact that one of them is a religion doesn't mean it's more important, in my opinion.
From a legal standpoint, it certainly does.
Besides, if you start catering to every belief system, you're opening the flood gates. Anything goes and you'd better be prepared for it.0 -
Escloflowne wrote: »If you're going to make Halal or Kosher available, this is fair. It's the same thing in the end, it's a belief system, the fact that one of them is a religion doesn't mean it's more important, in my opinion.
From a legal standpoint, it certainly does.
Besides, if you start catering to every belief system, you're opening the flood gates. Anything goes and you'd better be prepared for it.
Again... going to raise the question of what defines the difference. Pretty much anything can become a church provided they apply for the proper paperwork. Evidenced by the fact that my friend just helped found a revivalist Druidic church.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!
Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?
If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.
Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?
In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.
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BecomingBane wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »If you're going to make Halal or Kosher available, this is fair. It's the same thing in the end, it's a belief system, the fact that one of them is a religion doesn't mean it's more important, in my opinion.
From a legal standpoint, it certainly does.
Besides, if you start catering to every belief system, you're opening the flood gates. Anything goes and you'd better be prepared for it.
Again... going to raise the question of what defines the difference. Pretty much anything can become a church provided they apply for the proper paperwork. Evidenced by the fact that my friend just helped found a revivalist Druidic church.
In Canada, I don't know.
In the US, there is a maze of court rulings that set general guidelines for what is considered a church or a religion for various legal purposes. The definition for federal taxation purposes is not used for other federal legal purposes, just as an example that it is not a straight-forward issue.
In the US, you can not just stand up, declare your beliefs a religion and have that hold any water with the federal government. That much is abundantly clear and the feds have won plenty of lawsuits to prove it.0 -
It's pretty analogous to the question of whether and when an opposition to war is in essence a religious belief vs. a political or philosophical one (for the purposes of being a conscientious objector). I'm inclined to think veganism is, at least for some, on that level.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »It's pretty analogous to the question of whether and when an opposition to war is in essence a religious belief vs. a political or philosophical one (for the purposes of being a conscientious objector). I'm inclined to think veganism is, at least for some, on that level.
That actually seems to be a very good comparison.0 -
AllOutof_Bubblegum wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »myfelinepal wrote: »Is it completely necessary?
Are people holding down vegans and forcefeeding them honey?
Are vegans forced to sit at the back of the bus?
In the US, some people in prison do not have access to vegan meals. I'm not sure what the situation is in Canada.
People in prison should not have the right to vegan options. That's what prison is for: taking rights away as a consequence to committing a crime. They're felons, they eat what they're given.
Is that your position on kosher and halal meals in jail as well? As long as it's consistent, I can understand that position. I disagree, but I understand it.0 -
Well... it is nice to offer options! I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not necessarily going to be expensive. And it is a very well defined way of eating that is closely linked to people's morals (vs just health) so if you are going to protect one, it makes sense to be that one.
It will be more useful for people than they think.
Consider how many religious people have meatless days, or need to eat kosher or halal. Vegan options are also great options for them.0 -
BecomingBane wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »If you're going to make Halal or Kosher available, this is fair. It's the same thing in the end, it's a belief system, the fact that one of them is a religion doesn't mean it's more important, in my opinion.
From a legal standpoint, it certainly does.
Besides, if you start catering to every belief system, you're opening the flood gates. Anything goes and you'd better be prepared for it.
Again... going to raise the question of what defines the difference. Pretty much anything can become a church provided they apply for the proper paperwork. Evidenced by the fact that my friend just helped found a revivalist Druidic church.
In Canada, I don't know.
In the US, there is a maze of court rulings that set general guidelines for what is considered a church or a religion for various legal purposes. The definition for federal taxation purposes is not used for other federal legal purposes, just as an example that it is not a straight-forward issue.
In the US, you can not just stand up, declare your beliefs a religion and have that hold any water with the federal government. That much is abundantly clear and the feds have won plenty of lawsuits to prove it.
I believe that Canada uses a number of followers type of system to determine the status of a sect, cult or religion (each of those terms being directly related to number of followers. "Cult" doesn't mean that it's a crazy institution where everyone dies at the end or something - it's just a measure of how many people - like village, town, city, etc).0 -
Derp_Diggler wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!
Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?
If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.
Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?
In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.
Do you anticipate extra costs from serving beans instead of chicken?0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!
Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?
If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.
Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?
In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.
Do you anticipate extra costs from serving beans instead of chicken?
I would think that possibly the increased cost may not be due to the cost of the ingredients but in the process of preparing meals. For the most part, hospital meals are produced in an assembly line manner which keeps labour costs down. If you need to prepare 100 regular" meals and 1 vegan, the labour cost for that vegan meal will be higher.
As well, the hospital buys food in bulk which keeps costs down. Vegan protein sources are often not cheap and they may not be getting the full discount price that they might for chicken.
Just speculating.0 -
forwardmoving wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!
Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?
If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.
Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?
In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.
Do you anticipate extra costs from serving beans instead of chicken?
I would think that possibly the increased cost may not be due to the cost of the ingredients but in the process of preparing meals. For the most part, hospital meals are produced in an assembly line manner which keeps labour costs down. If you need to prepare 100 regular" meals and 1 vegan, the labour cost for that vegan meal will be higher.
As well, the hospital buys food in bulk which keeps costs down. Vegan protein sources are often not cheap and they may not be getting the full discount price that they might for chicken.
Just speculating.
My understanding (from a friend who works as a dietician in a hospital setting) is that hospitals already prepare different types of meals for patients with different dietary needs. This may not be accurate everywhere, but is accurate at her place of employment. And vegan sources of protein can be quite economical -- things like beans and peas are often less expensive than meat.
If my understanding of Canadian law is correct, hospitals are already doing this for patients who require kosher or halal meals. We aren't talking about introducing a totally new concept for the benefit of vegans. We're talking about adding veganism to a system that is already in place.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »forwardmoving wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!
Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?
If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.
Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?
In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.
Do you anticipate extra costs from serving beans instead of chicken?
I would think that possibly the increased cost may not be due to the cost of the ingredients but in the process of preparing meals. For the most part, hospital meals are produced in an assembly line manner which keeps labour costs down. If you need to prepare 100 regular" meals and 1 vegan, the labour cost for that vegan meal will be higher.
As well, the hospital buys food in bulk which keeps costs down. Vegan protein sources are often not cheap and they may not be getting the full discount price that they might for chicken.
Just speculating.
My understanding (from a friend who works as a dietician in a hospital setting) is that hospitals already prepare different types of meals for patients with different dietary needs.
I was going to say something similar. I expect this is the norm at any hospital, as patients will need to be on different diets.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »AllOutof_Bubblegum wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »myfelinepal wrote: »Is it completely necessary?
Are people holding down vegans and forcefeeding them honey?
Are vegans forced to sit at the back of the bus?
In the US, some people in prison do not have access to vegan meals. I'm not sure what the situation is in Canada.
People in prison should not have the right to vegan options. That's what prison is for: taking rights away as a consequence to committing a crime. They're felons, they eat what they're given.
Is that your position on kosher and halal meals in jail as well? As long as it's consistent, I can understand that position. I disagree, but I understand it.
Is anyone else thinking about that plot line in Orange is the New Black wheninmates realized the kosher food was better than the new slop and prisoners claimed to be Jewish en masse?
Looks like getting food in US prisons that adheres to one's religious beliefs is covered, while basic quality is not:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_food
... Complaints against prison food have been made on the grounds of breach of Constitutional Amendments. In particular, claims of inadequate food may breach the Eighth Amendment banning cruel and unusual punishment, and denial of specific food requirements on religious grounds breach the First Amendment.
...There is concern about the change of food preparation practices. There have been numerous documented examples of mass illness within prisons from the food served.[9] There have been hunger strikes from prisoners protesting being served food that makes them ill after eating. Whistle blowers and reporters have documented mouse droppings and various violations of standards in prison kitchens.[9] It is no longer allowed for family to bring food nor share with loved ones behind bars; rather families can transfer money for a fee to allow inmates to purchase packaged foods such as prepared noodle packages and candy from the prison store. There is thus usually no way for inmates to ever have access to fresh food. Aramark, who has provided the meals to many prisons in the USA since 2004, has been sharply criticized for lowering standards and not providing sufficient quantities of edible food.[9]0 -
Fascinating topic. I'm not sure of my position on this, but I'm enjoying the respectful debate.0
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forwardmoving wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!
Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?
If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.
Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?
In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.
Do you anticipate extra costs from serving beans instead of chicken?
I would think that possibly the increased cost may not be due to the cost of the ingredients but in the process of preparing meals. For the most part, hospital meals are produced in an assembly line manner which keeps labour costs down. If you need to prepare 100 regular" meals and 1 vegan, the labour cost for that vegan meal will be higher.
As well, the hospital buys food in bulk which keeps costs down. Vegan protein sources are often not cheap and they may not be getting the full discount price that they might for chicken.
Just speculating.
This, but more so the slippery slope it creates. First vegan, next paleo, after that who knows? Where do you draw the line? Why is one belief system worthy of catering to and others aren't? Before you know it the hospital has to stock and prepare 20 different kinds of meals. And that that sort of variety is not cost effective, as it costs more for purchase, storage, and preparation. I believe that a publicly funded resource should not stray from it's main objective. In this case it's to nurse people back to health. Anything beyond that is not essential, and as such, an unnecessary burden on an already over taxed populous. All while tax payers are on five year waiting lists for MRIs.0 -
i think its awesome. being ethically vegan (i am not) isnt a fad diet. They should have better food choices everywhere. Cows dont ask to be slaughtered (i eats the cows) So i think people who dont eat meat should have the same rights as people who do eat it. Especially and at least in hospitals.0
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kshama2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »AllOutof_Bubblegum wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »myfelinepal wrote: »Is it completely necessary?
Are people holding down vegans and forcefeeding them honey?
Are vegans forced to sit at the back of the bus?
In the US, some people in prison do not have access to vegan meals. I'm not sure what the situation is in Canada.
People in prison should not have the right to vegan options. That's what prison is for: taking rights away as a consequence to committing a crime. They're felons, they eat what they're given.
Is that your position on kosher and halal meals in jail as well? As long as it's consistent, I can understand that position. I disagree, but I understand it.
Is anyone else thinking about that plot line in Orange is the New Black wheninmates realized the kosher food was better than the new slop and prisoners claimed to be Jewish en masse?
A friend of mine used to insist that this was true on airplanes too (back in the day when you'd routinely get a (disgusting) meal for free. The vegetarian meal was supposed to be better too.0 -
Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.
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Derp_Diggler wrote: »forwardmoving wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!
Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?
If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.
Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?
In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.
Do you anticipate extra costs from serving beans instead of chicken?
I would think that possibly the increased cost may not be due to the cost of the ingredients but in the process of preparing meals. For the most part, hospital meals are produced in an assembly line manner which keeps labour costs down. If you need to prepare 100 regular" meals and 1 vegan, the labour cost for that vegan meal will be higher.
As well, the hospital buys food in bulk which keeps costs down. Vegan protein sources are often not cheap and they may not be getting the full discount price that they might for chicken.
Just speculating.
This, but more so the slippery slope it creates. First vegan, next paleo, after that who knows? Where do you draw the line? Why is one belief system worthy of catering to and others aren't? Before you know it the hospital has to stock and prepare 20 different kinds of meals. And that that sort of variety is not cost effective, as it costs more for purchase, storage, and preparation. I believe that a publicly funded resource should not stray from it's main objective. In this case it's to nurse people back to health. Anything beyond that is not essential, and as such, an unnecessary burden on an already over taxed populous. All while tax payers are on five year waiting lists for MRIs.
Do you consider paleo to be an ethical belief system?
I can understand if you oppose hospitals supplying different meals for different religious and ethical positions. I'm not sure how we get to "20 different kinds of meals." I don't think providing a meal free of animal products would require a hospital to stock many different types of meals, especially given that hospitals are already expected (and already do) provide a variety of meals for patients with different dietary needs. My typical meals are fruits, vegetables, grains, and beans. I can't imagine that a hospital wouldn't already have these types of foods available or that it would add much to food costs.0 -
Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.
Thank you for that. It's immensely eye opening to see it laid out so plainly.0 -
Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.
The picture is not nearly as rosy as you paint it.
4,300: Number of people waiting for an organ transplant – 70 per cent need a kidney. In some provinces, the wait time is over five years.
1,248: Number of people who received kidney transplants out of 3,362 people waiting. About 3,000 people die of kidney failure each year.
– Data compiled by the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Organ Replacement Register
But by all means, let's keep pandering to special interest groups.
0 -
Derp_Diggler wrote: »Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.
The picture is not nearly as rosy as you paint it.
4,300: Number of people waiting for an organ transplant – 70 per cent need a kidney. In some provinces, the wait time is over five years.
1,248: Number of people who received kidney transplants out of 3,362 people waiting. About 3,000 people die of kidney failure each year.
– Data compiled by the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Organ Replacement Register
But by all means, let's keep pandering to special interest groups.
How does someone in a hospital eating chicken instead of beans or having alfredo instead of marinara impact wait time for a kidney?0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Derp_Diggler wrote: »Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.
The picture is not nearly as rosy as you paint it.
4,300: Number of people waiting for an organ transplant – 70 per cent need a kidney. In some provinces, the wait time is over five years.
1,248: Number of people who received kidney transplants out of 3,362 people waiting. About 3,000 people die of kidney failure each year.
– Data compiled by the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Organ Replacement Register
But by all means, let's keep pandering to special interest groups.
How does someone in a hospital eating chicken instead of beans or having alfredo instead of marinara impact wait time for a kidney?
Especially because organ donation relies on people willing to give up their organs, or family members making that decision, if something horrible happens to them and has nothing to do with the number of people waiting.0 -
Derp_Diggler wrote: »Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.
First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.
Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.
What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.
The picture is not nearly as rosy as you paint it.
4,300: Number of people waiting for an organ transplant – 70 per cent need a kidney. In some provinces, the wait time is over five years.
1,248: Number of people who received kidney transplants out of 3,362 people waiting. About 3,000 people die of kidney failure each year.
– Data compiled by the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Organ Replacement Register
But by all means, let's keep pandering to special interest groups.
Are you actually implying that if every patient ate the same low cost meal (which isn't actually viable die to health conditions) that everyone who needs a kidney transplant would get one?0 -
Derp, it's no rosy picture. It's reality, and it already happens. You clearly do not have a good understanding of how healthcare dollars are spent, nor what drives the system. Healthcare is a complicated thing and by your last comment I feel that you are just a troll.
Cry as you might, but hospitals are already feeding vegans their vegan diets. It ain't pretty, but neither is any hospital food.0
This discussion has been closed.
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