Ontario Officials Rule Veganism is a Human Right Legally Protected from Discrimination

kshama2001 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

AllOutof_Bubblegum wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

myfelinepal wrote: »

Is it completely necessary?

Are people holding down vegans and forcefeeding them honey?

Are vegans forced to sit at the back of the bus?

In the US, some people in prison do not have access to vegan meals. I'm not sure what the situation is in Canada.

People in prison should not have the right to vegan options. That's what prison is for: taking rights away as a consequence to committing a crime. They're felons, they eat what they're given.

Is that your position on kosher and halal meals in jail as well? As long as it's consistent, I can understand that position. I disagree, but I understand it.

Is anyone else thinking about that plot line in Orange is the New Black when

inmates realized the kosher food was better than the new slop and prisoners claimed to be Jewish en masse?

A friend of mine used to insist that this was true on airplanes too (back in the day when you'd routinely get a (disgusting) meal for free. The vegetarian meal was supposed to be better too.

Derp_Diggler wrote: »

forwardmoving wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Derp_Diggler wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Derp_Diggler wrote: »

BecomingBane wrote: »

summerkissed wrote: »

I'm not against vegans or vegetarians or this or that but it's a choice that they make and with choices come sacrifices and if that means you need to supply your own food then well that's apart of your choice to eat a certain way!! I choose not to eat certain foods but that doesn't mean I go into hospital or schools expecting them to adhere to my choices......it just means I go prepared!! My choice, my responsibility!!

Let me see if I understand you. So... say I get hit by a car and put in hospital, or my luck, ICU, I'm single, and have no immediate family... am I supposed to supply my own food then? Just get up and run out to the local grocer?

If it doesn't affect your health a hospital should not be "forced" to provide it.

Is this also your position on kosher and halal meals in hospitals? You think people who need medical care should choose between that and keeping kosher/halal?

In Canada, where the health system is paid for by taxation, yes, I do. The sole purpose of a hospital is to make sick people better, not cater to their belief system. A lifestyle, like religion, is a choice. Every time you begin to cater to a different belief system, costs go up and so do taxes. If someone wants to pay extra for the "Health" system to accommodate their beliefs, that is fine. But don't expect the public to foot the bill for it.

Do you anticipate extra costs from serving beans instead of chicken?

I would think that possibly the increased cost may not be due to the cost of the ingredients but in the process of preparing meals. For the most part, hospital meals are produced in an assembly line manner which keeps labour costs down. If you need to prepare 100 regular" meals and 1 vegan, the labour cost for that vegan meal will be higher.

As well, the hospital buys food in bulk which keeps costs down. Vegan protein sources are often not cheap and they may not be getting the full discount price that they might for chicken.

Just speculating.

This, but more so the slippery slope it creates. First vegan, next paleo, after that who knows? Where do you draw the line? Why is one belief system worthy of catering to and others aren't? Before you know it the hospital has to stock and prepare 20 different kinds of meals. And that that sort of variety is not cost effective, as it costs more for purchase, storage, and preparation. I believe that a publicly funded resource should not stray from it's main objective. In this case it's to nurse people back to health. Anything beyond that is not essential, and as such, an unnecessary burden on an already over taxed populous. All while tax payers are on five year waiting lists for MRIs.

Do you consider paleo to be an ethical belief system?

I can understand if you oppose hospitals supplying different meals for different religious and ethical positions. I'm not sure how we get to "20 different kinds of meals." I don't think providing a meal free of animal products would require a hospital to stock many different types of meals, especially given that hospitals are already expected (and already do) provide a variety of meals for patients with different dietary needs. My typical meals are fruits, vegetables, grains, and beans. I can't imagine that a hospital wouldn't already have these types of foods available or that it would add much to food costs.

SwimmyD wrote: »

Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.

First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.

Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.

What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.

SwimmyD wrote: »

Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.

First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.

Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.

What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.

The picture is not nearly as rosy as you paint it.

4,300: Number of people waiting for an organ transplant – 70 per cent need a kidney. In some provinces, the wait time is over five years.

1,248: Number of people who received kidney transplants out of 3,362 people waiting. About 3,000 people die of kidney failure each year.

– Data compiled by the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Organ Replacement Register

But by all means, let's keep pandering to special interest groups.

janejellyroll wrote: »

Derp_Diggler wrote: »

SwimmyD wrote: »

Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.

First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.

Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.

What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.

SwimmyD wrote: »

Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.

First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.

Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.

What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.

The picture is not nearly as rosy as you paint it.

4,300: Number of people waiting for an organ transplant – 70 per cent need a kidney. In some provinces, the wait time is over five years.

1,248: Number of people who received kidney transplants out of 3,362 people waiting. About 3,000 people die of kidney failure each year.

– Data compiled by the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Organ Replacement Register

But by all means, let's keep pandering to special interest groups.

How does someone in a hospital eating chicken instead of beans or having alfredo instead of marinara impact wait time for a kidney?

Especially because organ donation relies on people willing to give up their organs, or family members making that decision, if something horrible happens to them and has nothing to do with the number of people waiting.

Derp, it's no rosy picture. It's reality, and it already happens. You clearly do not have a good understanding of how healthcare dollars are spent, nor what drives the system. Healthcare is a complicated thing and by your last comment I feel that you are just a troll.

Cry as you might, but hospitals are already feeding vegans their vegan diets. It ain't pretty, but neither is any hospital food.

Derp_Diggler wrote: »

auddii wrote: »

Derp_Diggler wrote: »

SwimmyD wrote: »

Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.

First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.

Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.

What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.

SwimmyD wrote: »

Let's get some facts straight here. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread about this topic. If you really want to know how Canadian healthcare dollars are spent you need to spend some time researching the Canadian Institute of Health Information -or CIHI. Not speculation and opinion.

First, the Canadian healthcare system spends about 6 billion a year on its population with close to 40% of that going to hospitals. The majority of spending in hospitals is used on ICUs, physician specialist salaries, expensive diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals and ambulatory care programs. To break it down even further - the biggest hospital spending is actually keeping people alive in their last two weeks of life - in an ICU setting. Food doesn't even crack the list. Why? Because it's cheap, compared to everything else. Is it affecting your wait to get an MRI? No. That is driven by a completely different issue. Namely resource availability (population demands) and acuity of your problem. If you have a serious issue that can't be ruled out by a CT scan - you will get your MRI quickly - even same day. If you have a stable but chronic issue like a meniscal tear of the knee you will wait 3-6 months. Nobody waits 5 years. MRIs are offered around the clock to ensure the wait is as minimal as possible. It's not great but better than the picture you paint. So let's not exaggerate.

Canadian hospitals already provide a myriad of diets for patients. In fact every single patient will have a different diet from everyone else. Read: regular, diabetic, no salt, no dairy, high fibre, puréed, minced, soft diet, clear fluids, total parenteral and vegetarian to name a few. These are a given, and vegetarian is in there. Based on the ethnic population that surrounds the hospital there will be diets that cater to Chinese, south Asian, kosher, and halal. Why do they do this you ask? Because people in hospital are usually very sick. In fact many are not eating at all. And when they do start eating there has to be something that they can eat. Hospital food is already quite bad, so if there aren't things that the patient can comfortably eat then they will not eat. Not eating means prolonged illness, which translates to a longer length of stay. Which means more tax dollars are spent. Not on the food- but on the extra days in a hospital bed. Hospitals figured this out a long time ago.

What does having a vegan diet in a an Ontario hospital look like? It looks just like the vegetarian one. Except they don't add the carton of milk with every meal. They substitute with juice. The noodles are not covered in Alfredo sauce, they are tomato based - as they serve to the dairy free patients. The beans are the same. Does it cost more in terms of food? No. They already have the food. Does it cost more in terms of kitchen staff? No. They already do this for every meal for every patient.

The picture is not nearly as rosy as you paint it.

4,300: Number of people waiting for an organ transplant – 70 per cent need a kidney. In some provinces, the wait time is over five years.

1,248: Number of people who received kidney transplants out of 3,362 people waiting. About 3,000 people die of kidney failure each year.

– Data compiled by the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Organ Replacement Register

But by all means, let's keep pandering to special interest groups.

Are you actually implying that if every patient ate the same low cost meal (which isn't actually viable die to health conditions) that everyone who needs a kidney transplant would get one?

No, I'm implying that as long as people are dying in an imperfect health care system, any resources, no matter how minute, shouldn't be allocated to cater to someone's "belief system". It's a healthcare system, not a belief care system, and if a sick person is too stubborn to eat what is put in front of them because their belief system won't allow it, then that's just Darwinism as far as I'm concerned.

Okay, but most people don't insist on perfecting a system before implementing any minor changes, especially when the changes won't do anything to set back further improvements of the system.

I understand what you're saying, but it seems unnecessarily rigid and hostile.

Close minded? Hardly. My comments reflect that I've spent my entire life working in many areas of hospital healthcare and "seen it all." There are many factors driving the cost of hospital healthcare and the supply chain is only one very small part of the picture. Vegan diets are not affecting it.

What you have quoted from CIHI is something that relates to the social determinants of health. That is, the time preceding the acute illness that requires medical attention. It relates to people who are poor and cannot afford nutritious food so they buy cheap junk food to fill their stomachs and develop obesity and type 2 diabetes. Or someone who smokes and develops COPD. The list goes on as there are many social determinants of health. If these factors were addressed and preventative measures were taken then less people would get sick.

Inefficiency is indeed a big problem in healthcare. It's not just in hospitals but in homecare and primary care too. It covers everything from the lack of electronic health records and over testing in the community to daily workarounds in hospital because of space and equipment and staffing issues. Fortunately quality improvement specialists and hospital administration realize this and are working on it - but it all takes time. Our system is run by people - for people, so is bound to be rife with error. I'm glad that you are looking at CIHI now Derp, and I hope that you learn more. There IS a lot to complain about. But I know by your comments that you do not work in healthcare and don't understand all the factors at play. Therefore it's important to get some facts straight.

Again, as I've stated before, varied diets are already occurring on a daily basis in every Canadian hospital whether you like it or not, including vegetarian. Some of them are based on health needs such as sodium or dairy free. Some are ethnicity based such as South Asian or halal. I've already answered why - ie to ensure people eat enough to reduce the length of stay. People are not robots. They are sick and are already inclined not to eat. A vegan diet requires no more staff or food than is already provided.

But another reason is patient-centred care. All hospitals are moving towards this model in all aspects of care - from communication to diet. Why? Because we want patients to feel "at home as possible" in a setting that is as "un-home-y" as possible. It improves a persons well being at a time when they are being poked and prodded and feeling pain and isolated. Hospitals provide spiritual care too. You need a chaplain? You'll get one. You need a translator? You'll get that too- although not necessarily all the time. Bottom line is that patient-centred care improves health outcomes for patients. Which means it's important for hospitals to utilize in order to get people better and get them home.

And back to the imperfect healthcare system - I'm afraid no country is outperforming another in all aspects of care. It's complicated because of population demands vs resources available. One small but important example, in Ontario we have many patients in hospital who are deemed "Alternative Level of Care" or "ALC" who are waiting for a long term care bed. There aren't enough long term care beds, so bed availability is limited, driving up wait times in ER. They don't need to be in hospital, but there is nowhere to send them. That is something worth really complaining about.

As for Darwinism - thankfully that is not a value that is embraced by any of the people who work in the healthcare system.