My take on refeeds
Replies
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pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
So what's the difference between a "refeed" and a "cheat day"? We high BF% people would like to know.
Refeed: reaching macro/ calorie goals usually pertaining to a low fat/ high carb day to increase leptin/ energy levels.
Cheat day: whatever the h*ll you want it to be. a cheat day to ME is not tracking/caring/ thinking about numbers or restriction. Enjoying myself. Not using a food scale or worrying about the macro composition of every meal.
You're also assuming I'm calling out higher bodyfat people? I just stated its not necessary at higher bodyfat levels as it is towards those cutting down to lean phase. 10...maybe 12% and under. No one has to listen to me, you can diet how you want, I did say MY take on the forum...so I just listed my stance.
You said higher BF% people don't need "refeeds", so I guess that's calling us out.
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pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
So what's the difference between a "refeed" and a "cheat day"? We high BF% people would like to know.
Refeed: reaching macro/ calorie goals usually pertaining to a low fat/ high carb day to increase leptin/ energy levels.
Cheat day: whatever the h*ll you want it to be. a cheat day to ME is not tracking/caring/ thinking about numbers or restriction. Enjoying myself. Not using a food scale or worrying about the macro composition of every meal.
You're also assuming I'm calling out higher bodyfat people? I just stated its not necessary at higher bodyfat levels as it is towards those cutting down to lean phase. 10...maybe 12% and under. No one has to listen to me, you can diet how you want, I did say MY take on the forum...so I just listed my stance.
So will a cheat day (using your definition) not increase leptin/energy levels?
It can, but focusing and knowing you're going higher carb, lower fat, you will have a greater effect on leptin
In your experience, what how far off from this idealized macro profile does the average person's cheat day land? Far enough from the mythical ideal to make a substantive difference in progress? Enough of a difference to offset the person's joy of eating their favorite things?
My N=1. My cheat day typically involves Chicago deep dish pizza for lunch after steak and pancakes for breakfast. It tends to come pretty close to the macros I'm shooting for, without any focusing and knowing.0 -
Thanks for the topic, OP. Refeeds have always perplexed me a bit. I get the utility of extra carbs to replenish glycogen stores, but I thought leptin levels change slowly, over the course of several days, so that one high carb day wouldn't increase leptin appreciably. I'm missing information, can't piece it together. Interested in learning more.0
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^^ thx0
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Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.0 -
CalvinBardin wrote: »Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.
Welcome to the forums and thank you for the lesson in foruming.0 -
I've not really looked into what refeeds are, but then I don't gym. They sound like something you'd need if you'd been eating at a really high deficit and were starving.
I do find I have a crazy day every 3-4 weeks though where I just can't keep my hands off the bread/pasta/potatoes, a real almost insatiable hunger that takes me a few hundred over. I go with it and usually find myself a couple of pounds lighter the next morning and the ravenous hunger gone for another few weeks.
Maybe thats my body's way of refeeding me, don't think I'd plan to eat extra though if I wasn't hungry for it but I do have (what feels to me) a pretty generous calories allowance.0 -
Thanks for the topic, OP. Refeeds have always perplexed me a bit. I get the utility of extra carbs to replenish glycogen stores, but I thought leptin levels change slowly, over the course of several days, so that one high carb day wouldn't increase leptin appreciably. I'm missing information, can't piece it together. Interested in learning more.
That is my understanding also.
I just skimmed that BB.com article and I don't think it addresses the time taken to restore leptin to normal or near normal (will read it properly later though) but I'm sure I read an article a couple of weeks back (possibly Layne Norton?) which stated that to restore leptin levels you would need to return to maintainance levels for approx 1 week. That would indicate that refeed days/meals are more of benefit in terms of psychological and glycogen load.0 -
I agree with the idea that, for the obese dieting down to normal levels of BF, refeeds are not going to be a useful strategy until that person gets close to normal BF.
IMHO this is primarily because in the early days of fat loss, consistency and adherence of of the greatest importance and the concept of refeeds can dilute that message (as well as adding in a whole heap of further variables which can upset the beginner - such as a 4lb gain on scales because of in transit food and increased water retention).0 -
CalvinBardin wrote: »Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.
Welcome to the forums and thank you for the lesson in foruming.
At least he used paragraphs.0 -
CalvinBardin wrote: »Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.
When OP says I'm not allowed to do a refeed because I have a high BF%, it tends to piss me off, much like if he said I shouldn't do squats because I can't go A2G.0 -
CalvinBardin wrote: »Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.
When OP says I'm not allowed to do a refeed because I have a high BF%, it tends to piss me off, much like if he said I shouldn't do squats because I can't go A2G.
They don't count. Not even once.
*still working on breaking parallel*0 -
Whilst I get the theory of diet breaks it was my understanding, as someone else has said above, that they need to be a good week to two weeks at maintenance. To restore hormone levels etc etc etc. And to restore sanity, mental breaks are as important if you ask me.
I really really don't understand how one day at maintenance can have a similar effect, other than the workout the following day potentially being awesome (have experienced this myself, oh sweet pizza fuelled cardio day).
PS. I squat A2G but that's because I'm bendy! But I don't always actually do it because my knees don't always like me.0 -
CalvinBardin wrote: »Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.
Welcome to the forums and thank you for the lesson in foruming.
At least he used paragraphs.
Not to nitpick or anything but......if you take a second look what he actually used was sentences. But admittedly it was much easier to follow his chain of thought(s)0 -
pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
So what's the difference between a "refeed" and a "cheat day"? We high BF% people would like to know.
Refeed: reaching macro/ calorie goals usually pertaining to a low fat/ high carb day to increase leptin/ energy levels.
Cheat day: whatever the h*ll you want it to be. a cheat day to ME is not tracking/caring/ thinking about numbers or restriction. Enjoying myself. Not using a food scale or worrying about the macro composition of every meal.
You're also assuming I'm calling out higher bodyfat people? I just stated its not necessary at higher bodyfat levels as it is towards those cutting down to lean phase. 10...maybe 12% and under. No one has to listen to me, you can diet how you want, I did say MY take on the forum...so I just listed my stance.
So will a cheat day (using your definition) not increase leptin/energy levels?
It can, but focusing and knowing you're going higher carb, lower fat, you will have a greater effect on leptin
But not in one day. The body doesn't adapt to change that quickly.
Mind you, this is not a pubmed link or anything like that, but his take reflects the same as Lyle McDonald's research on this and he provides a link to a podcast Lyle did with Danny Lennon on this topic exactly which backs up all of his article.
http://www.thinkeatlift.com/refeeds-help-you-lose-fat-faster/0 -
pinggolfer96 wrote: »If you have any other questions, you can ask me or leave a comment(:
What's your take on paragraphs?
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OP -
What
kind
of
foods
do
you
typically
eat
in
a
refeed
meal?0 -
pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
So what's the difference between a "refeed" and a "cheat day"? We high BF% people would like to know.
Refeed: reaching macro/ calorie goals usually pertaining to a low fat/ high carb day to increase leptin/ energy levels.
Cheat day: whatever the h*ll you want it to be. a cheat day to ME is not tracking/caring/ thinking about numbers or restriction. Enjoying myself. Not using a food scale or worrying about the macro composition of every meal.
You're also assuming I'm calling out higher bodyfat people? I just stated its not necessary at higher bodyfat levels as it is towards those cutting down to lean phase. 10...maybe 12% and under. No one has to listen to me, you can diet how you want, I did say MY take on the forum...so I just listed my stance.
Wouldn't it just be less complicated to go with a cheat meal every now and then than try and plan out a refeed day? I couldn't honestly say when I would be in need of a refeed. I'm at about 17-20% bodyfat range currently and my energy levels are up and down.
Also, for sake of curiosity, at what point can anyone justify getting away with a cheat day?0 -
pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
So what's the difference between a "refeed" and a "cheat day"? We high BF% people would like to know.
Refeed: reaching macro/ calorie goals usually pertaining to a low fat/ high carb day to increase leptin/ energy levels.
Cheat day: whatever the h*ll you want it to be. a cheat day to ME is not tracking/caring/ thinking about numbers or restriction. Enjoying myself. Not using a food scale or worrying about the macro composition of every meal.
You're also assuming I'm calling out higher bodyfat people? I just stated its not necessary at higher bodyfat levels as it is towards those cutting down to lean phase. 10...maybe 12% and under. No one has to listen to me, you can diet how you want, I did say MY take on the forum...so I just listed my stance.
So will a cheat day (using your definition) not increase leptin/energy levels?
It can, but focusing and knowing you're going higher carb, lower fat, you will have a greater effect on leptin
But not in one day. The body doesn't adapt to change that quickly.
Mind you, this is not a pubmed link or anything like that, but his take reflects the same as Lyle McDonald's research on this and he provides a link to a podcast Lyle did with Danny Lennon on this topic exactly which backs up all of his article.
http://www.thinkeatlift.com/refeeds-help-you-lose-fat-faster/
Thanks for posting this - it's a good article.0 -
CalvinBardin wrote: »Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.
When OP says I'm not allowed to do a refeed because I have a high BF%, it tends to piss me off, much like if he said I shouldn't do squats because I can't go A2G.
If your are going to mock some one for paragraphs you should work on your reading comprehension. There is a difference between him saying it is not needed or optimal and him saying you can't do them.0 -
pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
Nope. It's person dependent - refeeds and diet breaks might actually be of significant value to someone seeing AT. It is a good physical and mental strategy. And often enough, some people see issues with further restriction (nutritional, adherence or fatigue).
The one-size-fits-all theory of yours just doesn't make sense in theory or in practice.0 -
CalvinBardin wrote: »Man, so many people with thier feelings hurt over his experience and understanding of a diet concept.
In nutrition and diet there will be a bunch of ideas, read them, consider if it can help you, thank the contributer for putting them selves out there and trying to help and move on.
If you are having trouble losing fat I hear cutting out whine helps.
Thank you for sharing your experience with refeeding. I found it informative.
A+++++0 -
Thanks for the topic, OP. Refeeds have always perplexed me a bit. I get the utility of extra carbs to replenish glycogen stores, but I thought leptin levels change slowly, over the course of several days, so that one high carb day wouldn't increase leptin appreciably. I'm missing information, can't piece it together. Interested in learning more.
I think it has been proved that a refeed won't do anything for your leptin levels as they are decreased again the day after the refeed.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
Nope. It's person dependent - refeeds and diet breaks might actually be of significant value to someone seeing AT. It is a good physical and mental strategy. And often enough, some people see issues with further restriction (nutritional, adherence or fatigue).
The one-size-fits-all theory of yours just doesn't make sense in theory or in practice.
But leptin!0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »pinggolfer96 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Oh mighty low body fat people, what is a "refeed"? I don't think you mean what I think it means.
I always thought "refeed" was just a fancy term for cheat/eating at maintenance day.
Whatever it is, only people with low body fat deserve one.
Or at least that's how far I got before I was crushed by the wall of text.
Need*
I never said anything about deserve. I said it's not necessary if you're overweight as you still have body fat to lose.
So people at higher weight and/or above single-digit BF% don't ever suffer from lowered leptin levels and/or metabolic downregulation due to prolonged caloric deficits?
And FWIW, I agree that the OP was difficult to read.
Most of the time lowered leptin is a result of low body fat. Metabolic adaptation may be present, but that is when calories need to be reduced, not a structured refeed. I never said single digit body fat btw, but if you have someone starting at 35% bodyfat, and are in a prolonged deficit and still at 25%, they still have energy stores to diminish before they need to/ should incorporate a refeed. I'm all for bringing calories up to maintencase to enjoy yourself or even further or maybe have a cheat meal, but I put my take on a proper structured refeed.
Nope. It's person dependent - refeeds and diet breaks might actually be of significant value to someone seeing AT. It is a good physical and mental strategy. And often enough, some people see issues with further restriction (nutritional, adherence or fatigue).
The one-size-fits-all theory of yours just doesn't make sense in theory or in practice.
But leptin focusing and knowing!
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This thread has taught me to make sure my posts are well formatted, if only so the whole discussion doesn't turn into a thread about readability instead of what I actually intended to talk about.
OP: I agree with almost everything you said, but I haven't seen anything that supports your assertion that heavier people don't benefit from refeeds. Most sources I've seen recommend heavier people do them, but once every two weeks instead of every week or more.0
This discussion has been closed.
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