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Getting rid of stubborn fat
stevencloser
Posts: 8,911 Member
We have topics on this on a near daily basis of people asking what to do with their pouches and whatnot and the answers are usually "Sorry, you can't spot reduce certain areas. It'll come off when it comes off." (which is correct).
However, there looks to be some science on the whys of this that enables us to not spot reduce but lose more evenly distributed that rarely gets talked about. This thread is supposed to be about that.
The culprit for the existence of stubborn areas looks to be the clustering and activation of alpha-2 Adrenergic receptors vs. beta-2 and beta-3 adrenergic receptors in tissue.
That means that lowering the activation of alpha-2 receptors via treatments would lead to more evenly distributed fatloss. One such alpha-2 antagonist that was often used in the studies that looked into this would be yohimbine, which is also widely available as Yohimbine HCL as a supplement for weight loss (also used to be prescribed against erectile dysfunction and high blood pressure).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2362.1987.tb02395.x/abstract
http://www.jlr.org/content/24/4/429.full.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002604959190078B
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141327
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303720714004213
There seems to be not much talk about these kinds of things as fatloss helpers though. Why is that? At least in the US, Yohimbine HCL looks to be over-the-counter available, and the evidence of it evening out the lipolysis capabilities in different parts of your body seems to be there too as seen above, additionally to it supposedly raising your body heat and NEAT, increasing your calorie burn.
Lyle McDonald also goes a bit into the topic of stubborn fat here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/comparing-the-diets-part-1.html/ and in the other parts of that article, and says that high carbs is supposedly detrimental for fatloss in those places, though does not go into detail and refers to one of his books. And if I didn't know that Lyle usually knows his stuff, I would ignore it because of that. If anyone has info on that, go ahead.
So, let's discuss stubborn fat deposits, ways to get rid of it and the science behind it.
However, there looks to be some science on the whys of this that enables us to not spot reduce but lose more evenly distributed that rarely gets talked about. This thread is supposed to be about that.
The culprit for the existence of stubborn areas looks to be the clustering and activation of alpha-2 Adrenergic receptors vs. beta-2 and beta-3 adrenergic receptors in tissue.
That means that lowering the activation of alpha-2 receptors via treatments would lead to more evenly distributed fatloss. One such alpha-2 antagonist that was often used in the studies that looked into this would be yohimbine, which is also widely available as Yohimbine HCL as a supplement for weight loss (also used to be prescribed against erectile dysfunction and high blood pressure).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2362.1987.tb02395.x/abstract
http://www.jlr.org/content/24/4/429.full.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002604959190078B
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141327
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303720714004213
There seems to be not much talk about these kinds of things as fatloss helpers though. Why is that? At least in the US, Yohimbine HCL looks to be over-the-counter available, and the evidence of it evening out the lipolysis capabilities in different parts of your body seems to be there too as seen above, additionally to it supposedly raising your body heat and NEAT, increasing your calorie burn.
Lyle McDonald also goes a bit into the topic of stubborn fat here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/comparing-the-diets-part-1.html/ and in the other parts of that article, and says that high carbs is supposedly detrimental for fatloss in those places, though does not go into detail and refers to one of his books. And if I didn't know that Lyle usually knows his stuff, I would ignore it because of that. If anyone has info on that, go ahead.
So, let's discuss stubborn fat deposits, ways to get rid of it and the science behind it.
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Replies
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I seem to recall there being a study, but I can't find where it was mentioned here, that showed that keeping isocaloric levels in women, but one group increased exercise, resulted in fat levels staying the same, but a lower percentage of it was visceral.0
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stevencloser wrote: »We have topics on this on a near daily basis of people asking what to do with their pouches and whatnot and the answers are usually "Sorry, you can't spot reduce certain areas. It'll come off when it comes off." (which is correct).
I think for the majority of people asking they still have high enough body fat that I wouldn't call it stubborn. They should be able to reduce body fat and the "stubborn" area to a degree without having to jump through special hoops. I do agree that there is a point where body fat is low enough to call an area stubborn.
I don't have much to add, but I hope that someone has additional information on this. My legs refused to lean out for my last show and I can potentially find this useful.1 -
tagging to follow ....
My own observation is that as one gets lower and lower body fat your body's natural "defense mechanism" kicks in and says "we are getting low on body fat here, and we need to preserve it for emergency times" couple that with slowed metabolism plus lower calorie deficits to get to a lower body fat and you can see where the problem comes in....I can get to about 12% body fat, but anything lower than that I have an issue with ...
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Follwing this topik I still wonder what eating at a large deficit for a long time has to do with not losing the same poinds per month continuously. I keep hearing that here some pple stop losing while doing the same things.
Lately there have been several posts from people noticing that certain body areas stay fat while other areas become thin. I have no answers, interested tho ....0 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=yohimbine+fat+loss came up with six hits (I didn't cross check against the OP)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1960007 said no effect from yohimbine in middle aged men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17214405 found reduced body fat in "top level" male soccer players
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8697059 found it was possible to topically reduce women's thighs without diet or exercise, and tested one thigh against the other. It also found yohimbine ineffective amongst the treatments tested. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2894247 is an earlier study fromt he same authors, also supporting topical thigh reduction0 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=yohimbine+fat+loss came up with six hits (I didn't cross check against the OP)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1960007 said no effect from yohimbine in middle aged men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17214405 found reduced body fat in "top level" male soccer players
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8697059 found it was possible to topically reduce women's thighs without diet or exercise, and tested one thigh against the other. It also found yohimbine ineffective amongst the treatments tested. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2894247 is an earlier study fromt he same authors, also supporting topical thigh reduction
This stuff is banned in Australia...
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seems to be on sale in the UK http://uk.evitamins.com/yohimbine-hci-primaforce-115660
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Following.
I have always just accepted that the body stores fat where it wants to, and it prefers to make other sacrifices if it infers that body fat reserves are too low. My NEAT seems to progressively tank when my bf% gets lower.0 -
Who can explain why I lost fat in all the places I didn't need to lose fat from first? Arms, collarbone, face, fingers, bum, back. Yet my belly is hanging on for dear life. I know, I know, a very common complaint. But the only answers I see are "The body loses fat from where it chooses". Is this really the final answer?1
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I'd say it is a matter of we don't know the exact mechanisms that control what adipocytes will release fats to use for fuel.Christine_72 wrote: »Who can explain why I lost fat in all the places I didn't need to lose fat from first? Arms, collarbone, face, fingers, bum, back. Yet my belly is hanging on for dear life. I know, I know, a very common complaint. But the only answers I see are "The body loses fat from where it chooses". Is this really the final answer?
We have some inklings that some hormones seem to influence various fat locations differently as those adipocytes seem to have different amounts of receptors for them. Belly fat for a woman is an interesting scenario as testosterone tends to influence deposition there, but I'm not sure about release. Also not necessarily an explanation for your complaint - I'm guessing you don't have con-commitant hirsutism issues?
As I mentioned earlier, I've seen at least one study that indicated visceral fat (not all belly fat is visceral, but generally more if it) responds more to burning via endurance than from day to day use, even for isocaloric intakes.0 -
I'd say it is a matter of we don't know the exact mechanisms that control what adipocytes will release fats to use for fuel.Christine_72 wrote: »Who can explain why I lost fat in all the places I didn't need to lose fat from first? Arms, collarbone, face, fingers, bum, back. Yet my belly is hanging on for dear life. I know, I know, a very common complaint. But the only answers I see are "The body loses fat from where it chooses". Is this really the final answer?
We have some inklings that some hormones seem to influence various fat locations differently as those adipocytes seem to have different amounts of receptors for them. Belly fat for a woman is an interesting scenario as testosterone tends to influence deposition there, but I'm not sure about release. Also not necessarily an explanation for your complaint - I'm guessing you don't have con-commitant hirsutism issues?
As I mentioned earlier, I've seen at least one study that indicated visceral fat (not all belly fat is visceral, but generally more if it) responds more to burning via endurance than from day to day use, even for isocaloric intakes.
Thanks, and No I definitely do not have excessive hair growth, thyroid problems or cysts
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#lchf
Low Carb High Fat
I have always struggled with my belly and handles as my hardest fat to get rid of. A good diet would always leave me feeling like I was making progress but he tape measure would always tell me otherwise. I figured out my issue was carbs. Instead of just going crazy and giving them up altogether, I started lchf. In 20 days I've lost 5 pounds. Not great weight loss by any stretch but I see the definition in my shoulders and I can see my abs starting to show more and more. I measured my waist at 38" at the start and 2 weeks later is was 37.5".
My diet consists of salted almonds, lots of eggs, cottage cheese, bacon, butter, 70-80% fat chopped meat, braised beef, pot roast, chicken, protein powder, natural peanut butter, milk, fish, yogurt and all sorts of cream sauces on top. I do still eat carbs in the form of vegetables.
It is helping me and I really feel I am leaning out.
It's a highly debated lifestyle of eating but it is incredibly easy. Who doesn't enjoy slamming down a pound of bacon and 6 eggs fried in butter?
Btw, I had my blood work done and honest to God my cholesterol came down. Good Cholesterol is UP.
The thought is that you prevent your body from burning glucose for energy and having it burn fat instead. Many marathon runners are starting to give up carb loading for big runs because they crash and burn. Check out the article on it in runners world and good luck to each of you.
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner?cid=soc_runnersworld_TWITTER_Runner’s World__Nutrition_MarathonTraining0 -
#lchf
Low Carb High Fat
I have always struggled with my belly and handles as my hardest fat to get rid of. A good diet would always leave me feeling like I was making progress but he tape measure would always tell me otherwise. I figured out my issue was carbs. Instead of just going crazy and giving them up altogether, I started lchf. In 20 days I've lost 5 pounds. Not great weight loss by any stretch but I see the definition in my shoulders and I can see my abs starting to show more and more. I measured my waist at 38" at the start and 2 weeks later is was 37.5".
My diet consists of salted almonds, lots of eggs, cottage cheese, bacon, butter, 70-80% fat chopped meat, braised beef, pot roast, chicken, protein powder, natural peanut butter, milk, fish, yogurt and all sorts of cream sauces on top. I do still eat carbs in the form of vegetables.
It is helping me and I really feel I am leaning out.
It's a highly debated lifestyle of eating but it is incredibly easy. Who doesn't enjoy slamming down a pound of bacon and 6 eggs fried in butter?
Btw, I had my blood work done and honest to God my cholesterol came down. Good Cholesterol is UP.
The thought is that you prevent your body from burning glucose for energy and having it burn fat instead. Many marathon runners are starting to give up carb loading for big runs because they crash and burn. Check out the article on it in runners world and good luck to each of you.
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner?cid=soc_runnersworld_TWITTER_Runner’s World__Nutrition_MarathonTraining
I don't!! That is a lot of bacon and eggs to eat in one seating; I would be nauseated. I prefer a “control” carb diet myself, but all within limits.
Where is the fiber??1 -
#lchf
Low Carb High Fat
I have always struggled with my belly and handles as my hardest fat to get rid of. A good diet would always leave me feeling like I was making progress but he tape measure would always tell me otherwise. I figured out my issue was carbs. Instead of just going crazy and giving them up altogether, I started lchf. In 20 days I've lost 5 pounds. Not great weight loss by any stretch but I see the definition in my shoulders and I can see my abs starting to show more and more. I measured my waist at 38" at the start and 2 weeks later is was 37.5".
My diet consists of salted almonds, lots of eggs, cottage cheese, bacon, butter, 70-80% fat chopped meat, braised beef, pot roast, chicken, protein powder, natural peanut butter, milk, fish, yogurt and all sorts of cream sauces on top. I do still eat carbs in the form of vegetables.
It is helping me and I really feel I am leaning out.
It's a highly debated lifestyle of eating but it is incredibly easy. Who doesn't enjoy slamming down a pound of bacon and 6 eggs fried in butter?
Btw, I had my blood work done and honest to God my cholesterol came down. Good Cholesterol is UP.
The thought is that you prevent your body from burning glucose for energy and having it burn fat instead. Many marathon runners are starting to give up carb loading for big runs because they crash and burn. Check out the article on it in runners world and good luck to each of you.
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner?cid=soc_runnersworld_TWITTER_Runner’s World__Nutrition_MarathonTraining
I don't!! That is a lot of bacon and eggs to eat in one seating; I would be nauseated. I prefer a “control” carb diet myself, but all within limits.
Where is the fiber??
I do
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#lchf
Low Carb High Fat
I have always struggled with my belly and handles as my hardest fat to get rid of. A good diet would always leave me feeling like I was making progress but he tape measure would always tell me otherwise. I figured out my issue was carbs. Instead of just going crazy and giving them up altogether, I started lchf. In 20 days I've lost 5 pounds. Not great weight loss by any stretch but I see the definition in my shoulders and I can see my abs starting to show more and more. I measured my waist at 38" at the start and 2 weeks later is was 37.5".
My diet consists of salted almonds, lots of eggs, cottage cheese, bacon, butter, 70-80% fat chopped meat, braised beef, pot roast, chicken, protein powder, natural peanut butter, milk, fish, yogurt and all sorts of cream sauces on top. I do still eat carbs in the form of vegetables.
It is helping me and I really feel I am leaning out.
It's a highly debated lifestyle of eating but it is incredibly easy. Who doesn't enjoy slamming down a pound of bacon and 6 eggs fried in butter?
Btw, I had my blood work done and honest to God my cholesterol came down. Good Cholesterol is UP.
The thought is that you prevent your body from burning glucose for energy and having it burn fat instead. Many marathon runners are starting to give up carb loading for big runs because they crash and burn. Check out the article on it in runners world and good luck to each of you.
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner?cid=soc_runnersworld_TWITTER_Runner’s World__Nutrition_MarathonTraining
#notabybetterthancaloriedeficit#woo0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Lyle McDonald also goes a bit into the topic of stubborn fat here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/comparing-the-diets-part-1.html/ and in the other parts of that article, and says that high carbs is supposedly detrimental for fatloss in those places, though does not go into detail and refers to one of his books. And if I didn't know that Lyle usually knows his stuff, I would ignore it because of that. If anyone has info on that, go ahead.
In the book, he writes that when carbs are lowered (<20% cals from carbs), blood lipids increase to compensate. After a few days of exposure to blood fatty acids, alpha-2 receptors are naturally inhibited. Catecholamine response during exercise is also more dramatic when low-carbing it. Secondarily, keeping insulin low increases fat mobilization.
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#lchf
Low Carb High Fat
I have always struggled with my belly and handles as my hardest fat to get rid of. A good diet would always leave me feeling like I was making progress but he tape measure would always tell me otherwise. I figured out my issue was carbs. Instead of just going crazy and giving them up altogether, I started lchf. In 20 days I've lost 5 pounds. Not great weight loss by any stretch but I see the definition in my shoulders and I can see my abs starting to show more and more. I measured my waist at 38" at the start and 2 weeks later is was 37.5".
My diet consists of salted almonds, lots of eggs, cottage cheese, bacon, butter, 70-80% fat chopped meat, braised beef, pot roast, chicken, protein powder, natural peanut butter, milk, fish, yogurt and all sorts of cream sauces on top. I do still eat carbs in the form of vegetables.
It is helping me and I really feel I am leaning out.
It's a highly debated lifestyle of eating but it is incredibly easy. Who doesn't enjoy slamming down a pound of bacon and 6 eggs fried in butter?
Btw, I had my blood work done and honest to God my cholesterol came down. Good Cholesterol is UP.
The thought is that you prevent your body from burning glucose for energy and having it burn fat instead. Many marathon runners are starting to give up carb loading for big runs because they crash and burn. Check out the article on it in runners world and good luck to each of you.
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner?cid=soc_runnersworld_TWITTER_Runner’s World__Nutrition_MarathonTraining
Anyone who enjoys still having calories left after breakfast.3 -
Again, this particular thread is about getting rid of stubborn fat. I've simply given you an option that is working for me. I have faced the exact challenge over the years of stubborn belly fat and love handles.
Do some research on it and make your own decision but please consider it if everything else you have tried has failed.
Good luck
Erik1 -
I have listened to Lyle talk about this, and though I have read RFL I haven't read his Stubborn Fat book. When I first heard him talking about it I thought "You gotta be kidding me man..", especially after reading over and over that you can't spot reduce. I don't know. I wish I could understand the studies better. I just don't have a scientific mind. If anyone reads the studies above and want to provide cliffs because you're bored....1
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Again, this particular thread is about getting rid of stubborn fat. I've simply given you an option that is working for me. I have faced the exact challenge over the years of stubborn belly fat and love handles.
Do some research on it and make your own decision but please consider it if everything else you have tried has failed.
Good luck
Erik
I'm unsure how eating most people's maintenance calories in a single meal is going to help someone get rid of any fat, stubborn or not.1 -
arditarose wrote: »I have listened to Lyle talk about this, and though I have read RFL I haven't read his Stubborn Fat book. When I first heard him talking about it I thought "You gotta be kidding me man..", especially after reading over and over that you can't spot reduce. I don't know. I wish I could understand the studies better. I just don't have a scientific mind. If anyone reads the studies above and want to provide cliffs because you're bored....
I'm not an expert either but here's the short. Your cells have hormone receptors in them. Different cells have different sorts of receptors and in different amounts in different areas. The alpha adrenergic receptors talked about are more prominent in the stubborn areas and have, among others, the effect that when activated they stop fat cells from giving up their contents for lipolysis. Thus, the idea, that if you stop them from activating, fat should come off more evenly distributed along your body.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »arditarose wrote: »I have listened to Lyle talk about this, and though I have read RFL I haven't read his Stubborn Fat book. When I first heard him talking about it I thought "You gotta be kidding me man..", especially after reading over and over that you can't spot reduce. I don't know. I wish I could understand the studies better. I just don't have a scientific mind. If anyone reads the studies above and want to provide cliffs because you're bored....
I'm not an expert either but here's the short. Your cells have hormone receptors in them. Different cells have different sorts of receptors and in different amounts in different areas. The alpha adrenergic receptors talked about are more prominent in the stubborn areas and have, among others, the effect that when activated they stop fat cells from giving up their contents for lipolysis. Thus, the idea, that if you stop them from activating, fat should come off more evenly distributed along your body.
Okay...these cells where the stubborn fat is stop/halt lipolysis from other fat cells when they are activated.....How are they "activated" though?0 -
They're activated when certain hormones "hit" them. For these alpha receptors that's adrenaline and noradrenaline as well as some medicines for lowering blood pressure according to wikipedia.0
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stevencloser wrote: »They're activated when certain hormones "hit" them. For these alpha receptors that's adrenaline and noradrenaline as well as some medicines for lowering blood pressure according to wikipedia.
So women having the common stubborn fat in thighs and hips could possibly be caused by hormones "hitting" the fat cells there, thus activating them and causing fat to not drop off evenly over the body?0 -
I am interested in how these fat cells are activated. It is annoying losing fat in my face while my hips stay the same.0
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I think it's just because of the distribution of those receptors. I.e. women have more of them on their thighs etc. while men have more on their belly. There's also more in subcutaneous fat than in visceral.
I guess this distribution has come to be because of evolution, having your emergency fat in those regions being protective for men and attractive in women?
Also the beta receptors (which aid lipolysis) also get activated from adrenaline so it's basically a fight between which gets more activated if you end up losing fat from those particular fat cells.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2362.1987.tb02395.x/abstract
This link lists it.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I think it's just because of the distribution of those receptors. I.e. women have more of them on their thighs etc. while men have more on their belly. There's also more in subcutaneous fat than in visceral.
I guess this distribution has come to be because of evolution, having your emergency fat in those regions being protective for men and attractive in women?
Also the beta receptors (which aid lipolysis) also get activated from adrenaline so it's basically a fight between which gets more activated if you end up losing fat from those particular fat cells.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2362.1987.tb02395.x/abstract
This link lists it.
Thank you0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I think it's just because of the distribution of those receptors. I.e. women have more of them on their thighs etc. while men have more on their belly. There's also more in subcutaneous fat than in visceral.
I guess this distribution has come to be because of evolution, having your emergency fat in those regions being protective for men and attractive in women?
Also the beta receptors (which aid lipolysis) also get activated from adrenaline so it's basically a fight between which gets more activated if you end up losing fat from those particular fat cells.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2362.1987.tb02395.x/abstract
This link lists it.
Protective in women - carrying a child to term is risky business without modern medicine. Men theoretically as a store for endurance during cursorial hunting but I have doubts - hunting was maybe more gender egalitarian than we back project from modern beliefs.0 -
I eat a LCHF diet, and I'm not a big fan of bacon and eggs. Sigh. Cheese is my weakness.
I'm taking notes. I would like to keep some overall body fat and keep it off my waist.0 -
[/quote]
I'm unsure how eating most people's maintenance calories in a single meal is going to help someone get rid of any fat, stubborn or not.[/quote]
I never told anyone to eat that amount of calories. The point is to hit your calorie count using a low carb high fat diet instead of your normal macro which is most likely 50% carbs minimum. This was just something I thought was worthy of a mention in a thread talking about losing stubborn fat.
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