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New Take On How Gastric Bypass Cures Diabetes
GaleHawkins
Posts: 8,159 Member
in Debate Club
directorsblog.nih.gov/2013/07/30/new-take-on-how-gastric-bypass-cures-diabetes/
This has always been a mystery to me since I learned around 90% of Gastric Bypass patients are cured of diabetes.
Clearly if this physical stomach alteration can cure very obese people of diabetes in a week or two we have missed a factor or more in the cause of diabetes.
This has always been a mystery to me since I learned around 90% of Gastric Bypass patients are cured of diabetes.
Clearly if this physical stomach alteration can cure very obese people of diabetes in a week or two we have missed a factor or more in the cause of diabetes.
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Most diabetics, overweight or not, will have issues with low blood glucose if they go long periods without eating or not eating enough. with gastric bypass you will be eating so little it makes sense your glucose levels will decrease therefore decreasing the need for insulin.
My question is are they cured or in remission? If they begin eating as they had before surgery will the need for diabetic meds arise?0 -
I hard from a friend that Gastric Bypass seems to mean she can eat very small amounts of food. She was very overweight in her lower body before (about a size 24), then she went down to a 16 and she has climbed back up to about a 20. IN addition, she has lots of medical problems related to nutritional deficiencies. What Gastric Bypass cures really fast is Fatty Liver disease and that is something that prevents weight loss. 50 percent of people with Fatty Liver disease have Type 2 Diabetes within about seven years of developing it. From my reading, Fatty Liver Disease, PCOS (women) and Diabetes (not type 1) seem to be closely related. So I wonder if this is part of the puzzle you mention, Gale.0
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stephanieluvspb wrote: »Most diabetics, overweight or not, will have issues with low blood glucose if they go long periods without eating or not eating enough. with gastric bypass you will be eating so little it makes sense your glucose levels will decrease therefore decreasing the need for insulin.
My question is are they cured or in remission? If they begin eating as they had before surgery will the need for diabetic meds arise?
@stephanieluvspb I agree with your point. Remission or cure would be mean we would have to know the 'cause' of diabetes.
drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/07/19/what-happens-to-the-carbs-part-ii/ in part states about the cause of diabetes:
"Just to summarize these ‘paradoxical’ facts:
You do not need any fat cells to develop diabetes/if you have no fat cells there is a 100% probability that you will be diabetic
You can be very , very, obese and not have diabetes
You can have increased insulin production long before you become obese (and/or insulin resistant). You become obese later.
Just to remind you of the current model.
You eat too much
You get fat
As you get fat you become more insulin resistant
In order to overcome this resistance you produce more insulin
Eventually you cannot produce enough insulin, the system ‘burns out’ and you develop type II diabetes
Where and how can the paradoxical facts be fitted? The answer is that they cannot. Ergo, the model is wrong.
However, luckily, there is another model that fits all the facts. One that I prepared earlier:
You produce too much insulin
This forces your body to store fat
You become obese
At a certain point insulin resistance develops to block further weight gain
This resistance becomes more and more severe until…
You become diabetic
This model explains the Pima Indians. Can Sumo wrestlers be fitted into this model? Yes, with a couple of addendums. Sumo Wrestlers eat to become fat, because added mass provides a competitive advantage if you are trying to shove someone else out of a small ring, before they do it to you."
"But what of ‘normal’ people. Can normal people be fitted into the updated model of type II diabetes? Well, of course, they can. But you need another step in the new model, the first step. Which means we have a new causal chain, and it looks something like this ‘You eat too much carbohydrate.’ Adding in this step gives us the new model:
You eat too much carbohydrate/sugar
You produce too much insulin
This forces your body to store fat
You become obese
At a certain point insulin resistance develops to block further weight gain
This resistance becomes more and more severe until…
You become diabetic
The best thing about this model is that it works. It is not contradicted by Sumo Wrestlers, Pima Indians of those with lipodystrophy. It explains the association between obesity and diabetes, and how insulin resistance develops. It may not be perfect, but it is a bloody site better than the simplistic model we have got. The one that says, if you eat fat, you will get fatter, then diabetic…. Bong! If you are diabetic you should eat carbohydrate and sugar, not fat…Bong!
How long before mainstream medicine rejects this mainstream model? Another fifty years or so, I would guess"
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@rwhyte12 that may very well be part of the puzzle. Another part of the article I posted in reply to @stephanieluvspb reads:
"However, mild to moderate insulin resistance, even if blood sugar levels are not consistently raised, is not benign. It is associated with a whole series of other metabolic abnormalities such as: central obesity, raised VLDL/triglycerides, low HDL, high blood pressure, high levels of blood clotting factors – to name but a few. In addition you can also find higher sugar levels, and higher insulin levels in the post-prandial state (after eating). Most importantly, to my mind, mild to moderate insulin resistance is also associated with a far higher rate of heart disease.
In the early days, ‘pre-diabetes’ came under many different monikers. Just to give you four:
Reaven’s syndrome
Syndrome X
Insulin resistance syndrome
Metabolic syndrome
This caused a lot of initial confusion, but once I chased them all down, it because clear that these different names were simply describing the same phenomenon, which is probably best described as insulin resistance syndrome. Although this title carries its own problems."
As Dr. Kendrick states in the above link it seems eating too much Carbohydrates/Sugar are the cause of the above. If that be the case then that addresses the one and only cause of Diabetes.
We know when we stop overeating sugars/carbs four names above goes away and Type 2 diabetes more often than not become Insulin and Rx med free.
If diabetes can not develop without " You eat too much carbohydrate/sugar" then would not eating too much carbohydrate/sugar be a full cure of Diabetes?
drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/08/04/turning-diabetes-upside-down/ a clip from this link:
"Some of you may have watched Professor Unger’s fascinating YouTube lecture on type II diabetes. If not, here it is. I recommend it1. To keep things as simple as possible, his view is that the key hormone that drives diabetes is glucagon, not insulin. Indeed, by focussing almost entirely on insulin and sugar/glucose, we cannot understand what is going on with type 2 diabetes, as we are only looking at a small part of the picture. In addition, we are looking at it the wrong way round."
Make sure you read the 5th comment at the bottom by Denise LCHF Downunder.
October 21, 2015 at 6:47 pm.
Make sure you catch the part that states:
"I found a Link to an Old 1927 Cookbook for the treatment of Diabetes before Insulin was available as a treatment for T1D and what was once considered old age diabetes. Insulin resistance or T2D today’s version of it.
What really amazes me is that the only real treatment was Nutrition as Medicine the only way it was treated.
Under 40gms of Carbs per day. Bone broths – High Fat – Medium Protein – Low carbs. If one did not follow this protocol one would likely die."
Folks LCHF has been in the cookbooks before any of us was born. People want to ask, "What are the dangers of LCHF diets". Maybe they should be be asking, "What are the dangers of NOT eating LCHF diets?"
We could just say DIABETES.
Dr. Fung talks about carbs become dangerous to humans when they become processed and devoid of fiber.
https://youtu.be/tIuj-oMN-Fk
The two article by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick about the true nature of the cause of diabetes offer many other leads to chase.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »stephanieluvspb wrote: »Most diabetics, overweight or not, will have issues with low blood glucose if they go long periods without eating or not eating enough. with gastric bypass you will be eating so little it makes sense your glucose levels will decrease therefore decreasing the need for insulin.
My question is are they cured or in remission? If they begin eating as they had before surgery will the need for diabetic meds arise?
@stephanieluvspb I agree with your point. Remission or cure would be mean we would have to know the 'cause' of diabetes.
drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/07/19/what-happens-to-the-carbs-part-ii/ in part states:
"Just to summarize these ‘paradoxical’ facts:
You do not need any fat cells to develop diabetes/if you have no fat cells there is a 100% probability that you will be diabetic
You can be very , very, obese and not have diabetes
You can have increased insulin production long before you become obese (and/or insulin resistant). You become obese later.
Just to remind you of the current model.
You eat too much
You get fat
As you get fat you become more insulin resistant
In order to overcome this resistance you produce more insulin
Eventually you cannot produce enough insulin, the system ‘burns out’ and you develop type II diabetes
Where and how can the paradoxical facts be fitted? The answer is that they cannot. Ergo, the model is wrong.
What are the paradoxical facts? Did you leave them out?You produce too much insulin
This forces your body to store fat
You become obese
At a certain point insulin resistance develops to block further weight gain
This resistance becomes more and more severe until…
You become diabetic
Eh, wishful thinking. "I didn't eat too much. My insulin made me fat!" But the fact is that being IR makes it LESS likely that you store fat -- that's one of the things you are resistant to. It's just also possible that you eat more because the appetite satisfying effect of removal of glucose from blood does not kick in.
The studies I've seen of Pima are interesting, but seem to suggest genetic susceptibility to T2D (which is unsurprising) vs. T2D making one fat.This model explains the Pima Indians. Can Sumo wrestlers be fitted into this model?
If you mean the traditional model, yes -- they are quite active.
Out of curiosity, why the obsession with diabetes?0 -
It is interesting because the bariatric surgery patients go into hospital with diabetes and come out without it. There's no time for appreciable weight loss, and certainly no exercise. Prof Roy Taylor reckons there's something about the pre-op VLCD diet regime and the fasting on the day of the operation that is part of the story, and is chasing fat in the pancreas and liver via MRI studies.0
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Remember what I said about vetting sources. You still need work @GaleHawkins0
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It's amazing in Gale's theories that the idea that eating more calories than one's body needs doesn't come into play.
It's amazing because it is what causes obesity EVERY SINGLE TIME.
If I was unclear let me restate it is the over eating of carbohydrates and especially processed carbs that leads to weight gains mostly but over eating protein since about half of it can wind up as glucose can be a fating factor unlike fats can be.
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You were perfectly clear, Gale. Still wrong though.0
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What do you think people eat to try and triple their body weight by diet?0
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GaleHawkins wrote: »What do you think people eat to try and triple their body weight by diet?
Food Gale. Food.
Their typical macro of food please?0 -
If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).0 -
I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesity0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »What do you think people eat to try and triple their body weight by diet?
Food Gale. Food.
Their typical macro of food please?
Most hyper-palatible, easy to overeat foods are high in carbs AND fat (and salt).
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I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.0 -
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GaleHawkins wrote: »I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
Stop making things up. Obesity increases risk of T2D, regardless of the macro makeup.0 -
@GaleHawkins if you cannot get fat from fat, please to explain the following
I decided to examine the relationship between obesity prevalence and our intake of carbohydrate and sugar over the years. The food intake data come from the USDA's Economic Research Service (2). For some reason, the data on carbohydrate don't extend beyond 2010. This probably relates to funding cuts at the USDA*.
Let's have a look at the data for carbohydrate:
Carbohydrate intake peaked in 1999, and has apparently been declining since then. Yet obesity is still rising.
For our sugar intake, the data extend to 2013, so we get a longer, more informative picture (added sugars):
Carbohydrate intake peaked in 1999, and has apparently been declining since then. Yet obesity is still rising.
For our sugar intake, the data extend to 2013, so we get a longer, more informative picture (added sugars):
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/carbohydrate-sugar-and-obesity-in.html
Hmmm. Added fat intake increased by 28 percent over the course of the obesity epidemic, and it's the only factor out of the four we've examined that consistently increased in parallel with our expanding waistlines.
This doesn't surprise me at all. Here's why:
Added fat is the most calorie-dense food on the planet.
Added fat is one of the most effective ingredients for enhancing food palatability.
Added fat has a very low satiety value per calorie.
People eat more total calories when extra fat is added to their food.
Added fat fattens a variety of non-human species, including mice, rats, dogs, cats, pigs, and monkeys, when added to their food.
The rise of added fats was probably a contributor to the obesity epidemic, along with other diet and lifestyle factors. While fat isn't necessarily fattening when it's eaten as part of whole foods with lower calorie density and high fiber or protein (meat, yogurt, avocados, nuts), a lot of research has converged on the conclusion that added fat is fattening.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/fat-added-fat-and-obesity-in-america.html0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
"The findings support the hypothesis that high-fat, low-carbohydrate diets are associated with the onset of non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus in humans." http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/134/6/590.abstract?ijkey=03bc27d5bfa50f59494b6cc75c02fbbfd43c3119&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
"Fat consumption significantly predicts NIDDM risk in subjects with IGT after controlling for obesity and markers of glucose metabolism." http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/17/1/50.full.pdf+html
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GaleHawkins wrote: »stephanieluvspb wrote: »Most diabetics, overweight or not, will have issues with low blood glucose if they go long periods without eating or not eating enough. with gastric bypass you will be eating so little it makes sense your glucose levels will decrease therefore decreasing the need for insulin.
My question is are they cured or in remission? If they begin eating as they had before surgery will the need for diabetic meds arise?
@stephanieluvspb I agree with your point. Remission or cure would be mean we would have to know the 'cause' of diabetes.
drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/07/19/what-happens-to-the-carbs-part-ii/ in part states about the cause of diabetes:
"Just to summarize these ‘paradoxical’ facts:
You do not need any fat cells to develop diabetes/if you have no fat cells there is a 100% probability that you will be diabetic
You can be very , very, obese and not have diabetes
You can have increased insulin production long before you become obese (and/or insulin resistant). You become obese later.
...
This makes no sense. First, no 'normal' human has zero fat cells. Second, the only one I could find reported that does* doesn't have diabetes.
* Lizzie Velasquez - reported she was born with no adipose tissue, but there is also speculation by the medical community that she has a form of Neonatal Progeroid Syndrome, in which case she may still have traces left.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
No, odd as in thinking we didn't land on the moon.Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
That's not what the diabetes experts say, and you are ignoring the point, which is WHY the marathoners and sumo wrestlers eat so many carbs. It's not because they are magically more fattening than fat.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
No, odd as in thinking we didn't land on the moon.Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
That's not what the diabetes experts say, and you are ignoring the point, which is WHY the marathoners and sumo wrestlers eat so many carbs. It's not because they are magically more fattening than fat.
What is the macro then that sumo wrestlers eat be become so obese that supports your debate position?0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »What do you think people eat to try and triple their body weight by diet?
Food Gale. Food.
Their typical macro of food please?
There isn't one special macro that works better than any other. There is one that's relatively cheaper and easier to eat though in excess, so it often gets the nod.
I added 20ish pounds in 2012 eating very strict paleo lowish (<200g) carb and highish fat. I then cut most of this weight in early 2013 eating a SAD. To gain, I ate more calories than I burned; To cut, less. That's just how it works. That's how it always works.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
No, odd as in thinking we didn't land on the moon.Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
That's not what the diabetes experts say, and you are ignoring the point, which is WHY the marathoners and sumo wrestlers eat so many carbs. It's not because they are magically more fattening than fat.
What is the macro then that sumo wrestlers eat be become so obese that supports your debate position?
It's almost like you didn't read my prior answer to this just a few posts up!
Here you are again:
If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. [Edit: if they were just trying to get fat, it would probably be easiest on a high fat and carbs diet. But that's not the only goal--they want to be athletic and muscular.] And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).0 -
The answer is: whole, homecooked foods, high in vegetables.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW7n2UP60bk
If you don't want to get fat like sumo wrestlers, don't eat your vegetables, kids!0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
No, odd as in thinking we didn't land on the moon.Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
That's not what the diabetes experts say, and you are ignoring the point, which is WHY the marathoners and sumo wrestlers eat so many carbs. It's not because they are magically more fattening than fat.
What is the macro then that sumo wrestlers eat be become so obese that supports your debate position?
Do you honestly believe that every sumo wrestler ways the exact same foods? Football players? Ballet dancers? People that are overweight?
This whole concept is ridiculous.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.fullStudies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesitylemurcat12 wrote: »If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.
Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?
No, odd as in thinking we didn't land on the moon.Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
That's not what the diabetes experts say, and you are ignoring the point, which is WHY the marathoners and sumo wrestlers eat so many carbs. It's not because they are magically more fattening than fat.
What is the macro then that sumo wrestlers eat be become so obese that supports your debate position?
Do you honestly believe that every sumo wrestler ways the exact same foods? Football players? Ballet dancers? People that are overweight?
This whole concept is ridiculous.
Know what overweight people *do* have in common though? They ate more calories (from all/any source) than they burned.0
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