does anyone else think alcoholics anonymous is a joke?
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ScottyNoHotty wrote: »You get out what you put in.....
Hah!. . There it is!. .If it doesn't work then it's all YOUR fault!. . Since, you know, the "Program" is infallible.3 -
htimpaired wrote: »I like the idea of SMART recovery
SMART is just another group based approach to "recovery".
Addicts sit around and discuss nutrition, vitamins, hobbies and interests as substitutes for using/drinking, psycho therapy, and other smoke in mirrors ideas which have nothing to do with planned and permanent abstinence.
Group Leaders in Smart are often chronic relapsers themselves, which they freely admit to during meetings.
The only method of addiction treatment which has a zero tolerance attitude toward relapse and an understanding of a complete and total cure with no nonsense and no meetings is RR.
Also RR offers the Forum For The Forced which is a monitored but confidential program for people like OP who have been given the option of recovery treatment or termination of employment.
I don't see why adherents to one program or another all feel the need to attack the alternatives. I think what is needed is MORE options. I don't advocate doing away with AA at all. As I said, it's a good program for some people. I object to how AA has cornered the market and hijacked the discussion to the point where pointing out shortcomings in AA is tantamount to Heresy. RR and SMART are two of the very few alternatives and should be embraced if they work for some people when AA does not. We need more such programs. Everyone is different and addiction manifests itself in many many different ways.4 -
I think it might work well for some...it wouldn't be the program for me mostly because of the religious aspect. And I'm not a drug addict or alcoholic, so there's that. I've always felt it was strangely cultish, and I strongly disagree with the powerlessness aspect. I have family members that do it and they can be a little sanctimonious...my mother was a meth addict for most of my life, a high functioning addict, but still destructive. She got clean without any program at all, just with support from me and my sister. The family members that are in the program basically told her straight out she would fail if she didn't join them there. That kind of attitude isn't exactly helpful, except it made her want to prove them wrong even harder. That's just her personality. She has been clean now for 6 years.
My father on the other hand is still struggling. My mom and other family is helping him through it but he's had a couple relapses. I think this run he has been clean for 8 months. I don't think a 12 step program would be the right fit for him either, though. I have seen that along with the powerlessness they also foster a sense that the drugs are to blame for everything you've ever done wrong while high. You were not in control, therefore your mistakes and *kitten* things you did were not your fault. Personally, it comes across as a cop-out to me. That kind of blamelessness can be detrimental to personal growth. IMO, this would do my father no favors, he already has a selective memory when it comes to some of the *kitten* things he's done, high or not. His temper is always there, it's just amplified by the meth. What a person does while high and how they treat people is 100% on them. I don't blame the meth, I blame the person that continues to use it even knowing how destructive it is. It takes 3 days for the physical withdrawals to stop, after that it's psychological. I understand that it's not an easy thing to do, and when you are in the grip of the addiction and physical dependence it can feel hopeless...but when a person has been clean for months and CHOOSES to use again...that's all on them.
So, after a bit of a ramble there, I believe teaching that you are powerless takes these decisions out of the individuals hands. Both the initial decision to get high or drunk and all the other decisions that follow. And being an atheist myself, I can understand your frustration with being forced to attend meetings of this nature. I would be resentful, also.0 -
Cameron_1969 wrote: »htimpaired wrote: »I like the idea of SMART recovery
SMART is just another group based approach to "recovery".
Addicts sit around and discuss nutrition, vitamins, hobbies and interests as substitutes for using/drinking, psycho therapy, and other smoke in mirrors ideas which have nothing to do with planned and permanent abstinence.
Group Leaders in Smart are often chronic relapsers themselves, which they freely admit to during meetings.
The only method of addiction treatment which has a zero tolerance attitude toward relapse and an understanding of a complete and total cure with no nonsense and no meetings is RR.
Also RR offers the Forum For The Forced which is a monitored but confidential program for people like OP who have been given the option of recovery treatment or termination of employment.
I don't see why adherents to one program or another all feel the need to attack the alternatives. I think what is needed is MORE options. I don't advocate doing away with AA at all. As I said, it's a good program for some people. I object to how AA has cornered the market and hijacked the discussion to the point where pointing out shortcomings in AA is tantamount to Heresy. RR and SMART are two of the very few alternatives and should be embraced if they work for some people when AA does not. We need more such programs. Everyone is different and addiction manifests itself in many many different ways.
Don't you think though people feel strongly about what worked for them and then when they see people calling what is near and dear to their heart things like a joke and using the "r word" that's when people get defensive and where the heresy comes from? Not saying AA is the be all and end all, it worked for my grandfather but just pointing out why people get emotional and defensive
and I really do think it's the community aspect that helps people so I am all for people trying everything until they find something that works. What works for me isn't going to work for everyone, this is the truth cause I'm weird0 -
IMO AA is endorsed by society because it is faith based and so is most of the world. But since others practice their right to worship false gods i will also practice my right not to. Groups of other people are not a higher power to me any more than a doorknob. You could say science is my higher power if i was forced to choose because science evolves and changes to closer reflect reality as time progresses, whereas religion does not. Obviously i cannot change other people ....many far smarter than me have tried for example Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins etc...if you dont know who these people are look them up.
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derek1237654 wrote: »IMO AA is endorsed by society because it is faith based and so is most of the world. But since others practice their right to worship false gods i will also practice my right not to. Groups of other people are not a higher power to me any more than a doorknob. You could say science is my higher power if i was forced to choose because science evolves and changes to closer reflect reality as time progresses, whereas religion does not. Obviously i cannot change other people ....many far smarter than me have tried for example Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins etc...if you dont know who these people are look them up.
Weren't you ordered by your employer to go though? Can't you either (1) suck it up and toe the line and do it for your job, or (2) suggest an alternative? I dunno you need to make a living I assume0 -
derek1237654 wrote: »IMO AA is endorsed by society because it is faith based and so is most of the world. But since others practice their right to worship false gods i will also practice my right not to. Groups of other people are not a higher power to me any more than a doorknob. You could say science is my higher power if i was forced to choose because science evolves and changes to closer reflect reality as time progresses, whereas religion does not. Obviously i cannot change other people ....many far smarter than me have tried for example Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins etc...if you dont know who these people are look them up.
Weren't you ordered by your employer to go though? Can't you either (1) suck it up and toe the line and do it for your job, or (2) suggest an alternative? I dunno you need to make a living I assume
Yes i will sacrifice myself and go to aa or smart for the sake of my son. But will not give them any credit for something me and psychiatry did. Atleast im not actively working to undermine them at meetings. Im expressing dissent by not participating and listening to headphones.0 -
I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.5 -
ftr, powerlessness is one of the most misunderstood aspects of AA. There are somethings that people are powerless, but in truth, there are many things that people do have power over.
an alcoholic is powerless over what happens when they start to drink. how they drink is different than me. they are powerless over how i or others react to their behavior. they are powerless over nature, people, and things. they are not powerless over their own actions.
higher power is just something other than and outside of yourself. because your best thinking got you in this poor situation.
Some meetings are more spiritual than others. some people are more spiritual than others. take what you like and leave the rest.
also, AA was typically more successful than it is now. one major change is that people are court ordered to go and they don't want recovery or they don't want it bad enough. so they go back out to using. and that makes the percentage rather depressing.1 -
I know it's been said already. Just wanted to put this put there for your reference.
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Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people0 -
derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people
Not true, hence the sentence beginner of "I think". For some people it is successful. Just because it's a low rate doesn't mean it's not a success for some.0 -
madhatter2013 wrote: »derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people
Not true, hence the sentence beginner of "I think". For some people it is successful. Just because it's a low rate doesn't mean it's not a success for some.
Well thats just semantics. I know the success rate is terrible. But again if it helps you go do it...i just wish people knew there were other ways that dont involve lifetime commitments to meetings etc...0 -
in the age of the internet, people know.
i have found that it requires a life time commitment to something to those around me that identify as alcoholics0 -
Alcoholism is often described as a lifelong disease. Never having been an alcoholic, I wouldn't know, but those that I know who are agree. I know that it's the same way for me regarding smoking... I smoked for 10+years, been free for 3 years now, and even so much as 1 cigarette and I wouldn't be able to stop again without intervention and assistance.
long story short, for some it's the lifelong commitment that is needed, in my case, to give me a reason not to smoke and the willpower to abstain when challenged by that particular vice. my recovering alcoholic friends describe it exactly the same way.1 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »The doctor who ordered you to attend AA/NA, is that doctor under contract with your employer? Is there a time limit on this order?
Yes its a three year sentence.0 -
derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people
What you don't seem to understand is that we take issue with you using the word, period, regardless of what you're describing. Those with intellectual disabilities do not deserve to be used as a descriptor.
Again - you're welcome to think what you like on the program. I'm 0% interested in discussing its success rate as someone who has never attended AA/NA, but you have no right to essentially *kitten* on those who have relied on it. Looking down on religious folk for using religion to help them is cruel. I'm an atheist, too, but I'm not gonna look down on a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jewish person, or anyone else if their faith is what helps them get through one of the most difficult times in their life.2 -
Wicked_Seraph wrote: »derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people
What you don't seem to understand is that we take issue with you using the word, period, regardless of what you're describing. Those with intellectual disabilities do not deserve to be used as a descriptor.
Again - you're welcome to think what you like on the program. I'm 0% interested in discussing its success rate as someone who has never attended AA/NA, but you have no right to essentially *kitten* on those who have relied on it. Looking down on religious folk for using religion to help them is cruel. I'm an atheist, too, but I'm not gonna look down on a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jewish person, or anyone else if their faith is what helps them get through one of the most difficult times in their life.
I do not look down on them i feel sorry for them as they were obviously brainwashed when they were young. Its a rampant societal problem. I wont believe in god simply because i dont believe in things without evidence or a reasonable scientific basis. To do any less is to sell yourself short of reality as it currently is understood. I am glad it comforts people but is it really okay to take comfort in an imaginary friend like a child would? Its tantamount to the same thing.
Just because something cannot be proven 100% wrong does not give anyone the right to believe it true in the absence of a single shred of proof.
I live life by what is known not what is unknown. Anything less is just fanciful and wishful thinking. I could go on but no one cares anyways.....just drink the kool aid and hope for the best.0 -
OP- I think there is a level of personal responsibility that is missing from your post. After reading through this, it seems many agree with you that AA isn't always the best option. However, it was your own actions that landed you there. I don't think it's right that you weren't given an option of which program to choose, but being disrespectful to others (putting in your ear buds and ignoring everything) simply because it's not working for you makes you seem like a jerk. Not saying you are, it's just the portrayal of your current attitude, which clearly stems from frustration. I too am an atheist, but other people calling upon a high power doesn't effect me either way. It is what it is. I am glad you have found a way over your addiction, I hope it stays that way for you. In the mean time, try to find the silver lining with where you are. Take out those ear buds and share your story. You don't know who you could be inspiring. Instead, you choose to close yourself off and mock a program, that for some, seems to be their last hope for a better life.1
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OP you've been given alternatives to AA in this thread. RR has the Forum for the Forced which can be used as a substitute for forced AA attendance. Other organizations have also been mentioned.
Your original question was does anyone else think AA is a joke. Obviously a number of us agree with you that the premise of 12 Stepping is pretty humorous so now you know.
What seems fishy to me is that you don't seem enthused or committed to seeking out the alternatives. You seem content to complain about AA and religion in general, and you sound resigned to continue with the meetings and happy to hang out with your "sponsor".
If you choose RR, you should know its owner and director is very pro religion and staunchly supports traditional Judeo Christian values and Judeo Christian culture.
By the same token, religion or the lack of it, has no place in addiction recovery as promoted by RR. Recovery is self determined and self accomplished. No deity or doorknob takes the credit as in AA.
If you don't want to go to AA, stop going. Quit your job and get another one where you'll actually behave yourself. People do this all time.
I did seek out the alternatives. I got treatment for mental illness and i changed my behaviour. I hope others can do the same at whatever they decide to pursue. Yes i dont mind hanging out with my sponsor because i guess hes not really my sponsor anymore just a friend.0
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