FDA approves weight loss stomach pump device
Replies
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Here's my thoughts (recovering 15-year bulimic). If you drain the contents of the stomach after 20 minutes, that means much of what you actually digest will be carbs, since carbs can be digested in the mouth and stomach. It's the fiber, protein and fat that need to be digested in your intestines. So basically, this will make the patient more insulin resistant and make it hard to get enough protein, fat, and uptake the fat-soluble nutrients.18
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"To place the device, a surgeon makes a tiny incision and endoscopically puts a tube in the patient’s stomach, which is attached to a “disk-shaped port that lies outside the body,” according to the statement. To drain the contents of the stomach, a person should wait twenty or thirty minutes after they eat, and then attach an external connector to the port and open the valve."
oh my gawd! They should go the whole hog and turn it into an anaerobic digester with a USB port so you can charge you phone.
together with an app so you can log whats "pumped out"
Needs to sync to MFP to account for "calories out," and post status updates to Facebook and instagram.11 -
I can't imagine resorting to something like that. It just seems cheaper, less painful, less effort to eat less calories in the first place.
The article says the device is currently available in Europe. People all around the world buy and do dumb things instead of just watching their calorie intake.
not sure this is any different than gastric bypass or band surgery????
Less invasive maybe....
I agree it's freakin' gross, disgusting and it's sad people are and are going to do it.
Bariatric surgery has a higher risk of negative side effects than a g-tube. G-tubes have very low incidence of infection or other negative side effects.0 -
Dangit. How did I miss this? I scrolled through and just made the same post. Whoops.0
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I am completely for medical help with obesity, whether that is surgery, medication, a support group, a dietician, etc. I think people should use all the tools they can get if their weight is to the point that it is truly affecting their health and daily functioning.
But this device disturbs me.8 -
I think I'd feel better with the FDA-approved Obera or ReShape option. Fewer side effects, anyway, since there is no surgical incision and full anesthesia. But you're still walking around with a foreign object in your body.
"The system is indicated as an adjunct to weight reduction for obese adults with body mass index of 30 to 40 kg/m2 who have been unable to lose weight through diet and exercise. It is to be used in conjunction with a long-term supervised diet and behavior-modification program, which are to be continued after device removal.
Data on the use of the system in 125 individuals with BMI 30 to 40 kg/m2 were presented earlier this year at Digestive Disease Week 2015. The participants lost an average of 22 pounds (10%) of their body weight after the balloon had been in place for 6 months and maintained 19 pounds of that weight loss 3 months after it was removed." -http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/849200
I'd rather just lose my weight for free with MFP and not a medical procedure, but everyone isn't me. Also sounds like there was some weight creep very soon after it was pulled, but at least it requires some long-term support.0 -
What I don't understand is how it's supposed to help in the long run. It's a temporary device that does nothing to re-train the user like conventional bariatric surgery. It will help with immediate weight loss, but it has to be removed at some point, and the user is left with a normal-sized stomach and appetite. The supervised diet and counseling can help long-term, but how does flushing undigested food down the toilet for a little while solve anything?6
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PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »What I don't understand is how it's supposed to help in the long run. It's a temporary device that does nothing to re-train the user like conventional bariatric surgery. It will help with immediate weight loss, but it has to be removed at some point, and the user is left with a normal-sized stomach and appetite. The supervised diet and counseling can help long-term, but how does flushing undigested food down the toilet for a little while solve anything?
I suppose it would solve as much as a reduced calorie diet would. In other words, it will help them lose weight. Given the percentage of people that regain weight after dieting by any method (including calorie counting) why not try something new?2 -
This is medically approved bulemia that doesn't address the underlying issues, so the person never "heals" becoming a constant revenue stream for replacement parts, food manufacturers, and pharmaceuticals to address any medical issues caused as a side effect of this medical "treatment."11
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Yay!!! Physician assisted purging!!!!!6
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I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).13 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
That was one of my first thoughts, too. How is someone going to get proper nutrition while purging?4 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
Yes, which is why this is designed to be used in conjunction with nutrition and exercise counseling - which was proven to work in their testing in the past to prevent the weight from coming right back.
There is no likelihood that the person would overuse the device. You know why? Because the device literally has a failsafe in it that only allows it to be used 115 times before being replaced, which comes out to about 1.5 months. If you had bothered to research the thing you're trying to express your opinion on, you would know that....3 -
If you watch "thin" you will see that some anorexics and bulimics already use their G tubes to purge. This is nothing new2
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Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
Yes, which is why this is designed to be used in conjunction with nutrition and exercise counseling - which was proven to work in their testing in the past to prevent the weight from coming right back.
There is no likelihood that the person would overuse the device. You know why? Because the device literally has a failsafe in it that only allows it to be used 115 times before being replaced, which comes out to about 1.5 months. If you had bothered to research the thing you're trying to express your opinion on, you would know that....
But how do you know this, as well. It's a legitimate argument. What's so nutritious about having all food purged from your stomach and let alone having no energy to exercise. Geez
ETA: I bet you someone would find a way to abuse this device2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Depressing.
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Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
That FDA statement indicates that the device will only be used after non surgical weight loss therapy has failed to achieve or maintain weight loss had failed and that eligible patients will be assisted with a lifestyle programme to help with healthier choices. It also states that patients will be the subject of regular checks.
This, much like any invasive procedure won't be the first port of call.2 -
To me this is bad because it isn't teaching people to learn to control their eating and be healthier. It is basically a way to eat what you want and still lose weight and that teaches no one anything. It is an easy out.3
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And the list of people I know who will use this just popped into my brain... these people I thought of don't give a fig about eating less to lose weight or proper nutrition. They are the people who complain about being "fat" while shoving large amounts of high calorie foods in their mouths all day every day... ::SMH::
I think any candidate for this most be forced to be on a meal plan of some sort to try to shed at least a little bit of the weight first or else they will learn absolutely nothing!2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
That FDA statement indicates that the device will only be used after non surgical weight loss therapy has failed to achieve or maintain weight loss had failed and that eligible patients will be assisted with a lifestyle programme to help with healthier choices. It also states that patients will be the subject of regular checks.
This, much like any invasive procedure won't be the first port of call.
Which, to me, makes a bad thing even worse.
Other non-surgical forms of weight loss therapy failing means that the patient, for whatever reason, has never been able to take the "eat less calories than you're burning" part and make it a reality, which makes having a device to purge while supposedly teaching someone better eating habits seem tenuous.
Why will they suddenly be successful long term now that they quite literally do not need to be accountable in any way for their food choices?6 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
That FDA statement indicates that the device will only be used after non surgical weight loss therapy has failed to achieve or maintain weight loss had failed and that eligible patients will be assisted with a lifestyle programme to help with healthier choices. It also states that patients will be the subject of regular checks.
This, much like any invasive procedure won't be the first port of call.
Which, to me, makes a bad thing even worse.
Other non-surgical forms of weight loss therapy failing means that the patient, for whatever reason, has never been able to take the "eat less calories than you're burning" part and make it a reality, which makes having a device to purge while supposedly teaching someone better eating habits seem tenuous.
Why will they suddenly be successful long term now that they quite literally do not need to be accountable in any way for their food choices?
Exactly!
But I have to say I missed that part... where it's the last resort, so that at least makes it better!1 -
The old me woukd have thought. ....Wow a way to eat large amounts of crap and get away with it. Personally I cannot see how this will help someone with disordered eating to heal themselves.7
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Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
That FDA statement indicates that the device will only be used after non surgical weight loss therapy has failed to achieve or maintain weight loss had failed and that eligible patients will be assisted with a lifestyle programme to help with healthier choices. It also states that patients will be the subject of regular checks.
This, much like any invasive procedure won't be the first port of call.
Which, to me, makes a bad thing even worse.
Other non-surgical forms of weight loss therapy failing means that the patient, for whatever reason, has never been able to take the "eat less calories than you're burning" part and make it a reality, which makes having a device to purge while supposedly teaching someone better eating habits seem tenuous.
Why will they suddenly be successful long term now that they quite literally do not need to be accountable in any way for their food choices?
And the same could be argued about VLCDs or other forms of bariatric surgery. In fact many of the arguments put forward in this thread echo the same objections.
Yet, they are both still viable because the benefit to the patient justifies the intervention. In some cases getting weight down, by whatever means necessary, is a better answer than the alternatives.1 -
What would this do to nutrition? I would think you wouldn't have any idea what you actually absorbed.2
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queenliz99 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
Yes, which is why this is designed to be used in conjunction with nutrition and exercise counseling - which was proven to work in their testing in the past to prevent the weight from coming right back.
There is no likelihood that the person would overuse the device. You know why? Because the device literally has a failsafe in it that only allows it to be used 115 times before being replaced, which comes out to about 1.5 months. If you had bothered to research the thing you're trying to express your opinion on, you would know that....
But how do you know this, as well. It's a legitimate argument. What's so nutritious about having all food purged from your stomach and let alone having no energy to exercise. Geez
ETA: I bet you someone would find a way to abuse this device
How do I know which part? That the device has a failsafe? The results of the study they did on it before it was approved? I can tell you how I know each and every part of my argument, because I read both the articles and the actual description from the FDA about the function of the device. I know that it's designed to be used in conjunction with counseling because that's how it was approved to be used and how the clinical trials were conducted ("Frequent medical visits are also necessary to monitor device use and weight loss and to provide counseling on lifestyle therapies", "The FDA reviewed results from a clinical trial of 111 patients treated with AspireAssist and appropriate lifestyle therapy, and 60 control patients who received only the lifestyle therapy. After one year, patients using AspireAssist lost an average of 12.1 percent of their total body weight compared to 3.6 percent for the control patients." -FDA). I know that it's designed with a failsafe because that's what the FDA approved and what the device is (" The device also has a safety feature that keeps track of the number of times the drain tube is connected to the port and automatically stops working after 115 cycles (approximately five to six weeks of therapy); patients must return for a medical visit to get a replacement part for the device in order to continue the therapy. This safety feature helps ensure patients use the device properly during therapy." -FDA)
It only removes 30% of the food consumed (also backed up by the FDA). Even if the person were to use it over and over to purge their entire meal, it would take 5-10+ uses of it just to get rid of one meal. Say they ate 2 meals a day and each one took 7 uses to purge (a low estimate on both counts) - the absolute longest they could go without seeing a doctor would be 8 days. Trust me, no one with a BMI of 40 is dying over 8 days of very low calories before they see their doctor.
Please, please actually do some research. It'll do you good. At least then when you try to argue you have points to back yourself up. A knee-jerk "eww gross" reaction is so unhelpful, especially when you try to justify it and have nothing.
http://www.fda.gov/newsevents/newsroom/pressannouncements/ucm506625.htm9 -
The arguments above are quite interesting to read. So....does personal RESPONSIBILITY as to what you put in your mouth have anything to do with any of these arguments. Great - it removes 30% of the food consumed. However - there are bigger issues involved than the food that is currently in your stomach, such as why you ATE that 30% extra to begin with. I've seen bariatric patients go through surgery only to come out years later larger or the same size before the surgery due to lack of self-awareness, food-awareness, nutritional counselling, and mental health counselling (to help with food addiction, etc.). This is a temporary solution to a MUCH greater problem. People need to take accountability. Period. This device is another way for Big Pharma to make their millions.8
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I can't imagine resorting to something like that. It just seems cheaper, less painful, less effort to eat less calories in the first place.
The article says the device is currently available in Europe. People all around the world buy and do dumb things instead of just watching their calorie intake.
not sure this is any different than gastric bypass or band surgery????
Less invasive maybe....
I agree it's freakin' gross, disgusting and it's sad people are and are going to do it.
I think it's different. People get full faster when they've had those procedures. In theory, they learn to eat better portions.
This, this....it leaves me aghast. I don't have a problem with medical tools to help people generally speaking. But this...where is the learning to be healthy part? It's basically enabling a person to binge and purge. Given the new shuttle thing that's being tested, which is like gastric bypass but a temporary balloon, I don't see why the world needs something like this.
Good gawd.4 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »I don't understand why people are worrying about eating disorders. Do they worry about eating disorders for bariatric surgery? This has the same general requirements - must be at a high BMI, must have tried to lose weight through other means, must be in a situation where weight loss is the most healthy thing they can do for themselves. It seems like completely unnecessary worry, people looking for reasons to be angry at this device because they think it's gross without actually being logical about it. In fact, this is just the feeding tube given to anorexic patients in reverse, and without inpatient. Seems like a great tool for someone with BED or other kinds of disordered binge eating.
I think it's gross but I might think differently if I had a BMI of 45 and had been struggling for years to lose weight and knew that if I didn't lose weight I would be in mortal danger very soon. You know what's also gross? Colostomy bags. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist; it just means that medical intervention is sometimes necessarily gross.
Man, the people on this forum are so judgy and irrational sometimes.
What would be "logical" is educating people and giving them what they need to learn how to eat properly for a lifetime rather than impanting a device which allows them to continue engaging in destructive eating habits yet purge their bodies of the food (which also carries a high likelihood that the device will be overused and the patient could suffer from malnutrition even while binging).
That FDA statement indicates that the device will only be used after non surgical weight loss therapy has failed to achieve or maintain weight loss had failed and that eligible patients will be assisted with a lifestyle programme to help with healthier choices. It also states that patients will be the subject of regular checks.
This, much like any invasive procedure won't be the first port of call.
Which, to me, makes a bad thing even worse.
Other non-surgical forms of weight loss therapy failing means that the patient, for whatever reason, has never been able to take the "eat less calories than you're burning" part and make it a reality, which makes having a device to purge while supposedly teaching someone better eating habits seem tenuous.
Why will they suddenly be successful long term now that they quite literally do not need to be accountable in any way for their food choices?
And the same could be argued about VLCDs or other forms of bariatric surgery. In fact many of the arguments put forward in this thread echo the same objections.
Yet, they are both still viable because the benefit to the patient justifies the intervention. In some cases getting weight down, by whatever means necessary, is a better answer than the alternatives.
The difference, for me, is that with VLCDs and bariatric surgery, no one is encouraged to quite literally remove the contents of their stomachs in the same way that this pump does. This is making a different eating disorder behavior acceptable without the bodily damage that vomiting or laxatives causes.
If you regain the weight after bariatric surgery, which many people do, you can find someone to do the surgery again or maybe try something different, which is what you'll likely be allowed to do with this device as well. What I'm worried about with this device is that the "something different" might end up being actual bulimia, since that's essentially what you were doing in the first place. I don't think it'll be a big leap for some.3 -
I have not been afflicted with a binge disease, or obesity or bulemia, I've never purged.
I just want to quote that old addage here though:
Don't condemn someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.
Most of us, if we had them, would welcome anything that could intercept the diseases I mentioned above.
If you still condemn and criticize, try to walk two miles in their shoes.
Then come back and tell us how that went and did you learn any compassion? Did you learn about the mind, the inner struggles of the people you think you can speak for?8 -
I should be shocked that this is even a thing, but as several pointed out, people have done similar stuff for years. I'm so glad I finally found a way that works for me and there are ZERO tricks involved.4
This discussion has been closed.
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