Obesity Journal study: It's not just CICO
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stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.
And many many obese people are not insulin resistance as demonstrated by the fact that 66% + of the US population is overweight or obese, but not all of them are diabetic.
There are several hormones to cause the body to store fat... insulin is only one of them.
@psulemon
@amusedmonkey states: "Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around." Not true, many normal weight or even thin people are insulin resistant or type 2 diabetics. Obesity doesn't cause IR, insulin does. Here's Dr. Fung's lecture if you want to check it out:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-toxicity-cure-type-2-diabetes/
It's important to note that he is a practicing physician who treats type 2 diabetes, effectively reversing their disease (getting them off medication and exogenous insulin requirements) much faster than he reverses their obesity (because the obesity isn't what causes insulin resistance, it's elevated levels of insulin). The obesity takes longer if and when it disappears. He treats them with individualized fasting protocols and dietary management aimed at lowering insulin levels and allowing the cells to regain sensitivity.
As far as the Kevin Hall Study you shared... yeah, I've seen it before.
Let's clarify the blatant misinformation presented here. Important points are as follows:
1. The Restricted carbohydrate (RC) and Restricted fat (RF) diets both led to weight loss, more weight was lost following the RC diet.
2. Fat mass change as measured by DXA revealed significant changes from baseline, but did not detect a significant difference between RF and RC diets.
3. This study lasted 2 weeks. There were 10 men and 9 women in the study.
4. Carbohydrate restriction was only to an average of 140 grams/day--hardly a ketogenic diet.
5. They calculated daily fat balance as the difference between fat intake and net fat oxidation (i.e., fat oxidation minus de novo lipogenesis) measured by indirect calorimetry while residing in a metabolic chamber--an invented (aka made up) parameter. This means numbers compared were (a) the fat intake from from RF group (7% of total calories) minus how much fat they oxidized (on a calorie deficient diet, of course they were oxidizing body fat) vs. (b) the fat intake from the RC group (49% of total calories--a much greater number) minus how much fat they oxidized--a difference that is accounted for more than 3 times in the intake.
So in summary, the only conclusion this study supported was that if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume! We already knew that!!! This study does NOT support the hypothesis that a low fat diet results in greater total fat burning than a high fat/low carbohydrate diet.
If you look at the hard data, the only statistically significant differences they found were - increased fat oxidation and increased weight loss in the high fat/low carb diet.
They also found decreased insulin, decreased triglycerides, and elevated HDL with the carbohydrate restricted diet - all known benefits! In short, if you make up new parameters to show the numbers you want and ignore hard data, you can make a study say what you want it to say.
The study supported that the insulin hypothesis is junk as touted be Gary Taubes and others. The fact that you dont have to restrict carbs to lose fat, is a clear indication of that. Additionally, while the RC group lost more weight, due to glycogen depletion, FFM was greater in the low fat group. The purpose of me linking this wasn't to discuss which was better, but rather dispell your constant insinuation that all things come down to insulin because a subset of people have issues with it, like diabetics.
You are touting Dr. Fungs hypotheses like they are supported by the rest of the community. If insulin caused obesity and cause diabetes, than almost every Asian person would have it. The blue zones are the healthiest and longest living place on earth and yet, they all dont it. If you look at the rest of the community, there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin. The NIH would allude to the fact that obesity (particularly belly fat) is one cause. Other causes would be physcial inactivity, other medical conditions, steroid use, some medications, older age, sleep problems, especially sleep apnea, and cigarette smoking.
Regarding your first point, you ignored the fact that they had greater fat oxidation, not the ridiculous "net fat oxidation." Of course, FFM was greater in RF since it includes extracellular fluids, which we all know drop on a low carb diet. The study was a miniscule 2 weeks, and the DEXA showed no significant difference between either diet. And let's be honest too about the diets: the RF diet was too low to be considered healthy, normal, or attainable by anyone in real life (7%) and the RC was way too high to be a ketogenic diet (140 g). Again, all the study proves is what I stated: if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume. Ground-breaking.
Regarding your Asian comment. It's already been addressed in this thread. We're are not talking about the carbohysrate-insulin hypothesis--we are not talking about Taubes either. Dr. Fung does a good job explaining why that is an incomplete and inaccurate picture: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
I disagree with you that I'm touting anything like anyone agrees or disgrees. I'm just sharing evidence. It means little to me what everyone else believes. I'm well aware that following mainstream nutritional advice would be very different from following Dr. Fung's. That's a shame. Actually, it's more than a shame when you understand the players involved and why change is not happening. You said yourself, "there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin." I assume you mean insulin secretion or resistance? Bottom line is, even you acknowledge that insulin plays an very important role in weight gain and weight loss. And that's what Dr. Fung tries to tease out. What drives insulin secretion? Yes, we all know sugar and refined carbs... also steroids, certian medications (like seroquel or other antidepressants), cortisol (stress hormones), snacking between meals and through the day, artificial sweetners, the list goes on. The point is: controlling insulin is a HUGE component to controlling weight. @psulemon
To clarify the bold, it was insulin resistance. It was a quote from the NIH. I would also like to point out, that you are sharing observation, rather than evidence by a research organization. I dont know that this guys is qualify to treat his patients because they all pretty much share the same subset of metabolic issues. In those cases, specific dietary restrictions have been noted for years. It's not rocket science that people with diabetes need to moderate their carbs... The issue I have is he completely disregards calories as a function of weight loss for anyone. Essentially, he doesn't believe in the law of thermodynamics, which is an issue. Because if calories weren't an issue, then those on low carb or keto diets wouldn't be able to gain weight or muscle? Or lose or spare what they wanted. He also doesn't address any other of the weight gain hormones. i
I recognize the calories are the driver of weight loss and gain. I do also recognize the hormones (not just insulin) can affect ones ability to lose weight, not because it would disprove CICO, but rather it can alter components of the equation. PCOS has some likes to reduction in resting metabolic rate, which would also affect non exercise activity thermogenesis (more efficient metabolic rate, means less calories burned doing daily activities). This in turn would lower your TDEE and make it more difficult to lose weight. And while I cannot confirm why that happens, since I haven't researched too much, but I would suspect that a person would have longer periods of lipogenesis from elevated BG or insulin, which in turn would reduce times in lipolysis. Having said that, i do recognize, that for as much as we do know, things will change over the years. My general problem these conversations is throwing out mainstream data just because its mainstream.
Lolz. "He doesn't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Nope, he just says that physics and physiology are two different sciences. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is never violated when a person goes on a calorie restricted diet, but can't easily access stored fat due to excess insulin--that's why BMR drops! The 2nd law of thermodynamics is true, but you can't use it to support a gross oversimplification like the CICO model. He's say it far better and funnier than I can, so I'll link his article: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
And no one is throwing out mainstream just "because it's mainstream." That's silly. I'm challenging the parts that are incorrect and actually harm people.
Things you don't believe aren't incorrect. And again, no excess insulin when you're in a deficit, and don't come with IR again, I already said TWICE that IR reduces insulin's effect so the higher amount in your blood does nothing and I don't care about saying it again.
Well, then by all means, please don't say it again. You aren't explaining yourself, and you have no evidence to share. Things you believe aren't correct by default. @stevencloser0 -
Lolz. "He doesn't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Nope, he just says that physics and physiology are two different sciences. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is never violated when a person goes on a calorie restricted diet, but can't easily access stored fat due to excess insulin--that's why BMR drops! The 2nd law of thermodynamics is true, but you can't use it to support a gross oversimplification like the CICO model. He's say it far better and funnier than I can, so I'll link his article: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
And no one is throwing out mainstream just "because it's mainstream." That's silly. I'm challenging the parts that are incorrect and actually harm people.
How are you challenging it? All you are doing is posting one doctors opinions. It's not even research.
God that was an awful article. It's full of wild assumptions and doesn't even address any of the hormones that suppress HSL while eating a high fat diet. It assumes that the moment you eat 1200 calories a day, that your metabolic rate drops to equal 1200 calories. It literally hurts my head.
It read like a 15 year old wrote it for his "nutrition" class, in which, he would surely get a D at best.5 -
stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.
And many many obese people are not insulin resistance as demonstrated by the fact that 66% + of the US population is overweight or obese, but not all of them are diabetic.
There are several hormones to cause the body to store fat... insulin is only one of them.
@psulemon
@amusedmonkey states: "Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around." Not true, many normal weight or even thin people are insulin resistant or type 2 diabetics. Obesity doesn't cause IR, insulin does. Here's Dr. Fung's lecture if you want to check it out:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-toxicity-cure-type-2-diabetes/
It's important to note that he is a practicing physician who treats type 2 diabetes, effectively reversing their disease (getting them off medication and exogenous insulin requirements) much faster than he reverses their obesity (because the obesity isn't what causes insulin resistance, it's elevated levels of insulin). The obesity takes longer if and when it disappears. He treats them with individualized fasting protocols and dietary management aimed at lowering insulin levels and allowing the cells to regain sensitivity.
As far as the Kevin Hall Study you shared... yeah, I've seen it before.
Let's clarify the blatant misinformation presented here. Important points are as follows:
1. The Restricted carbohydrate (RC) and Restricted fat (RF) diets both led to weight loss, more weight was lost following the RC diet.
2. Fat mass change as measured by DXA revealed significant changes from baseline, but did not detect a significant difference between RF and RC diets.
3. This study lasted 2 weeks. There were 10 men and 9 women in the study.
4. Carbohydrate restriction was only to an average of 140 grams/day--hardly a ketogenic diet.
5. They calculated daily fat balance as the difference between fat intake and net fat oxidation (i.e., fat oxidation minus de novo lipogenesis) measured by indirect calorimetry while residing in a metabolic chamber--an invented (aka made up) parameter. This means numbers compared were (a) the fat intake from from RF group (7% of total calories) minus how much fat they oxidized (on a calorie deficient diet, of course they were oxidizing body fat) vs. (b) the fat intake from the RC group (49% of total calories--a much greater number) minus how much fat they oxidized--a difference that is accounted for more than 3 times in the intake.
So in summary, the only conclusion this study supported was that if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume! We already knew that!!! This study does NOT support the hypothesis that a low fat diet results in greater total fat burning than a high fat/low carbohydrate diet.
If you look at the hard data, the only statistically significant differences they found were - increased fat oxidation and increased weight loss in the high fat/low carb diet.
They also found decreased insulin, decreased triglycerides, and elevated HDL with the carbohydrate restricted diet - all known benefits! In short, if you make up new parameters to show the numbers you want and ignore hard data, you can make a study say what you want it to say.
The study supported that the insulin hypothesis is junk as touted be Gary Taubes and others. The fact that you dont have to restrict carbs to lose fat, is a clear indication of that. Additionally, while the RC group lost more weight, due to glycogen depletion, FFM was greater in the low fat group. The purpose of me linking this wasn't to discuss which was better, but rather dispell your constant insinuation that all things come down to insulin because a subset of people have issues with it, like diabetics.
You are touting Dr. Fungs hypotheses like they are supported by the rest of the community. If insulin caused obesity and cause diabetes, than almost every Asian person would have it. The blue zones are the healthiest and longest living place on earth and yet, they all dont it. If you look at the rest of the community, there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin. The NIH would allude to the fact that obesity (particularly belly fat) is one cause. Other causes would be physcial inactivity, other medical conditions, steroid use, some medications, older age, sleep problems, especially sleep apnea, and cigarette smoking.
Regarding your first point, you ignored the fact that they had greater fat oxidation, not the ridiculous "net fat oxidation." Of course, FFM was greater in RF since it includes extracellular fluids, which we all know drop on a low carb diet. The study was a miniscule 2 weeks, and the DEXA showed no significant difference between either diet. And let's be honest too about the diets: the RF diet was too low to be considered healthy, normal, or attainable by anyone in real life (7%) and the RC was way too high to be a ketogenic diet (140 g). Again, all the study proves is what I stated: if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume. Ground-breaking.
Regarding your Asian comment. It's already been addressed in this thread. We're are not talking about the carbohysrate-insulin hypothesis--we are not talking about Taubes either. Dr. Fung does a good job explaining why that is an incomplete and inaccurate picture: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
I disagree with you that I'm touting anything like anyone agrees or disgrees. I'm just sharing evidence. It means little to me what everyone else believes. I'm well aware that following mainstream nutritional advice would be very different from following Dr. Fung's. That's a shame. Actually, it's more than a shame when you understand the players involved and why change is not happening. You said yourself, "there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin." I assume you mean insulin secretion or resistance? Bottom line is, even you acknowledge that insulin plays an very important role in weight gain and weight loss. And that's what Dr. Fung tries to tease out. What drives insulin secretion? Yes, we all know sugar and refined carbs... also steroids, certian medications (like seroquel or other antidepressants), cortisol (stress hormones), snacking between meals and through the day, artificial sweetners, the list goes on. The point is: controlling insulin is a HUGE component to controlling weight. @psulemon
To clarify the bold, it was insulin resistance. It was a quote from the NIH. I would also like to point out, that you are sharing observation, rather than evidence by a research organization. I dont know that this guys is qualify to treat his patients because they all pretty much share the same subset of metabolic issues. In those cases, specific dietary restrictions have been noted for years. It's not rocket science that people with diabetes need to moderate their carbs... The issue I have is he completely disregards calories as a function of weight loss for anyone. Essentially, he doesn't believe in the law of thermodynamics, which is an issue. Because if calories weren't an issue, then those on low carb or keto diets wouldn't be able to gain weight or muscle? Or lose or spare what they wanted. He also doesn't address any other of the weight gain hormones. i
I recognize the calories are the driver of weight loss and gain. I do also recognize the hormones (not just insulin) can affect ones ability to lose weight, not because it would disprove CICO, but rather it can alter components of the equation. PCOS has some likes to reduction in resting metabolic rate, which would also affect non exercise activity thermogenesis (more efficient metabolic rate, means less calories burned doing daily activities). This in turn would lower your TDEE and make it more difficult to lose weight. And while I cannot confirm why that happens, since I haven't researched too much, but I would suspect that a person would have longer periods of lipogenesis from elevated BG or insulin, which in turn would reduce times in lipolysis. Having said that, i do recognize, that for as much as we do know, things will change over the years. My general problem these conversations is throwing out mainstream data just because its mainstream.
Lolz. "He doesn't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Nope, he just says that physics and physiology are two different sciences. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is never violated when a person goes on a calorie restricted diet, but can't easily access stored fat due to excess insulin--that's why BMR drops! The 2nd law of thermodynamics is true, but you can't use it to support a gross oversimplification like the CICO model. He's say it far better and funnier than I can, so I'll link his article: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
And no one is throwing out mainstream just "because it's mainstream." That's silly. I'm challenging the parts that are incorrect and actually harm people.
Things you don't believe aren't incorrect. And again, no excess insulin when you're in a deficit, and don't come with IR again, I already said TWICE that IR reduces insulin's effect so the higher amount in your blood does nothing and I don't care about saying it again.
Well, then by all means, please don't say it again. You aren't explaining yourself, and you have no evidence to share. Things you believe aren't correct by default. @stevencloser
You're the one who needs to start showing any evidence. The opinions of one person, even if they're allowed to put "Dr." in front of their name, are just that, opinion.
Yet again, you're talking about a fringe belief that goes against scientific consensus as if it's The One Truth (TM), and everything that goes against it is outdated, incorrect and harmful.4 -
It seems like metabolism is largely determined by your weight, and secondarily by your hormones. "Permanent" alteration of metabolism would seem to stem from "permanent" damage to one's hormones. On that basis, I'd be curious what the studies say specifically about that. Because a lot of hormone damage can be reversed or mitigated by implementing new habits. For example, I drastically improved my own metabolism through weight training, intermittent fasting, and other additional food and natural supplement choices that enhanced my testosterone.0
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stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.
And many many obese people are not insulin resistance as demonstrated by the fact that 66% + of the US population is overweight or obese, but not all of them are diabetic.
There are several hormones to cause the body to store fat... insulin is only one of them.
@psulemon
@amusedmonkey states: "Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around." Not true, many normal weight or even thin people are insulin resistant or type 2 diabetics. Obesity doesn't cause IR, insulin does. Here's Dr. Fung's lecture if you want to check it out:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-toxicity-cure-type-2-diabetes/
It's important to note that he is a practicing physician who treats type 2 diabetes, effectively reversing their disease (getting them off medication and exogenous insulin requirements) much faster than he reverses their obesity (because the obesity isn't what causes insulin resistance, it's elevated levels of insulin). The obesity takes longer if and when it disappears. He treats them with individualized fasting protocols and dietary management aimed at lowering insulin levels and allowing the cells to regain sensitivity.
As far as the Kevin Hall Study you shared... yeah, I've seen it before.
Let's clarify the blatant misinformation presented here. Important points are as follows:
1. The Restricted carbohydrate (RC) and Restricted fat (RF) diets both led to weight loss, more weight was lost following the RC diet.
2. Fat mass change as measured by DXA revealed significant changes from baseline, but did not detect a significant difference between RF and RC diets.
3. This study lasted 2 weeks. There were 10 men and 9 women in the study.
4. Carbohydrate restriction was only to an average of 140 grams/day--hardly a ketogenic diet.
5. They calculated daily fat balance as the difference between fat intake and net fat oxidation (i.e., fat oxidation minus de novo lipogenesis) measured by indirect calorimetry while residing in a metabolic chamber--an invented (aka made up) parameter. This means numbers compared were (a) the fat intake from from RF group (7% of total calories) minus how much fat they oxidized (on a calorie deficient diet, of course they were oxidizing body fat) vs. (b) the fat intake from the RC group (49% of total calories--a much greater number) minus how much fat they oxidized--a difference that is accounted for more than 3 times in the intake.
So in summary, the only conclusion this study supported was that if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume! We already knew that!!! This study does NOT support the hypothesis that a low fat diet results in greater total fat burning than a high fat/low carbohydrate diet.
If you look at the hard data, the only statistically significant differences they found were - increased fat oxidation and increased weight loss in the high fat/low carb diet.
They also found decreased insulin, decreased triglycerides, and elevated HDL with the carbohydrate restricted diet - all known benefits! In short, if you make up new parameters to show the numbers you want and ignore hard data, you can make a study say what you want it to say.
The study supported that the insulin hypothesis is junk as touted be Gary Taubes and others. The fact that you dont have to restrict carbs to lose fat, is a clear indication of that. Additionally, while the RC group lost more weight, due to glycogen depletion, FFM was greater in the low fat group. The purpose of me linking this wasn't to discuss which was better, but rather dispell your constant insinuation that all things come down to insulin because a subset of people have issues with it, like diabetics.
You are touting Dr. Fungs hypotheses like they are supported by the rest of the community. If insulin caused obesity and cause diabetes, than almost every Asian person would have it. The blue zones are the healthiest and longest living place on earth and yet, they all dont it. If you look at the rest of the community, there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin. The NIH would allude to the fact that obesity (particularly belly fat) is one cause. Other causes would be physcial inactivity, other medical conditions, steroid use, some medications, older age, sleep problems, especially sleep apnea, and cigarette smoking.
Regarding your first point, you ignored the fact that they had greater fat oxidation, not the ridiculous "net fat oxidation." Of course, FFM was greater in RF since it includes extracellular fluids, which we all know drop on a low carb diet. The study was a miniscule 2 weeks, and the DEXA showed no significant difference between either diet. And let's be honest too about the diets: the RF diet was too low to be considered healthy, normal, or attainable by anyone in real life (7%) and the RC was way too high to be a ketogenic diet (140 g). Again, all the study proves is what I stated: if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume. Ground-breaking.
Regarding your Asian comment. It's already been addressed in this thread. We're are not talking about the carbohysrate-insulin hypothesis--we are not talking about Taubes either. Dr. Fung does a good job explaining why that is an incomplete and inaccurate picture: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
I disagree with you that I'm touting anything like anyone agrees or disgrees. I'm just sharing evidence. It means little to me what everyone else believes. I'm well aware that following mainstream nutritional advice would be very different from following Dr. Fung's. That's a shame. Actually, it's more than a shame when you understand the players involved and why change is not happening. You said yourself, "there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin." I assume you mean insulin secretion or resistance? Bottom line is, even you acknowledge that insulin plays an very important role in weight gain and weight loss. And that's what Dr. Fung tries to tease out. What drives insulin secretion? Yes, we all know sugar and refined carbs... also steroids, certian medications (like seroquel or other antidepressants), cortisol (stress hormones), snacking between meals and through the day, artificial sweetners, the list goes on. The point is: controlling insulin is a HUGE component to controlling weight. @psulemon
To clarify the bold, it was insulin resistance. It was a quote from the NIH. I would also like to point out, that you are sharing observation, rather than evidence by a research organization. I dont know that this guys is qualify to treat his patients because they all pretty much share the same subset of metabolic issues. In those cases, specific dietary restrictions have been noted for years. It's not rocket science that people with diabetes need to moderate their carbs... The issue I have is he completely disregards calories as a function of weight loss for anyone. Essentially, he doesn't believe in the law of thermodynamics, which is an issue. Because if calories weren't an issue, then those on low carb or keto diets wouldn't be able to gain weight or muscle? Or lose or spare what they wanted. He also doesn't address any other of the weight gain hormones. i
I recognize the calories are the driver of weight loss and gain. I do also recognize the hormones (not just insulin) can affect ones ability to lose weight, not because it would disprove CICO, but rather it can alter components of the equation. PCOS has some likes to reduction in resting metabolic rate, which would also affect non exercise activity thermogenesis (more efficient metabolic rate, means less calories burned doing daily activities). This in turn would lower your TDEE and make it more difficult to lose weight. And while I cannot confirm why that happens, since I haven't researched too much, but I would suspect that a person would have longer periods of lipogenesis from elevated BG or insulin, which in turn would reduce times in lipolysis. Having said that, i do recognize, that for as much as we do know, things will change over the years. My general problem these conversations is throwing out mainstream data just because its mainstream.
Lolz. "He doesn't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Nope, he just says that physics and physiology are two different sciences. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is never violated when a person goes on a calorie restricted diet, but can't easily access stored fat due to excess insulin--that's why BMR drops! The 2nd law of thermodynamics is true, but you can't use it to support a gross oversimplification like the CICO model. He's say it far better and funnier than I can, so I'll link his article: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
And no one is throwing out mainstream just "because it's mainstream." That's silly. I'm challenging the parts that are incorrect and actually harm people.
Things you don't believe aren't incorrect. And again, no excess insulin when you're in a deficit, and don't come with IR again, I already said TWICE that IR reduces insulin's effect so the higher amount in your blood does nothing and I don't care about saying it again.
Well, then by all means, please don't say it again. You aren't explaining yourself, and you have no evidence to share. Things you believe aren't correct by default. @stevencloser
You're the one who needs to start showing any evidence. The opinions of one person, even if they're allowed to put "Dr." in front of their name, are just that, opinion.
Yet again, you're talking about a fringe belief that goes against scientific consensus as if it's The One Truth (TM), and everything that goes against it is outdated, incorrect and harmful.
If you think insulin driving weight gain is a fringe belief, then why don't you try this study of n=1? Get yourself a bottle of regular insulin and inject a few units or so before meals and at bedtime. See how incredibly hungry you feel and how quickly you gain weight. See how much trouble you have losing it. Or just give yourself a daily dose of long-acting insulin if you want to save time. I think you'll very quickly and personally understand the causal relationship. I don't need a study to tell me what I've already seen over and over again (although plenty of studies confirm it as well). Insulin drives weight gain and insulin resistance. I've seen the patients who have to keep upping their doses just to overcome the growing resistance. Dr. Fung knows too because he's a practicing nephrologist who remained frustrated for years treating patients with conventional methods (that do nothing to lower insulin), watching them getter fatter and sicker with no improved outcomes. Thank goodness he knew how to think critically, research, and see past the confusion. More and more doctors are catching on because they care about actually healing people. Big Pharma won't be able to keep us in the dark indefinitely.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.
And many many obese people are not insulin resistance as demonstrated by the fact that 66% + of the US population is overweight or obese, but not all of them are diabetic.
There are several hormones to cause the body to store fat... insulin is only one of them.
@psulemon
@amusedmonkey states: "Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around." Not true, many normal weight or even thin people are insulin resistant or type 2 diabetics. Obesity doesn't cause IR, insulin does. Here's Dr. Fung's lecture if you want to check it out:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-toxicity-cure-type-2-diabetes/
It's important to note that he is a practicing physician who treats type 2 diabetes, effectively reversing their disease (getting them off medication and exogenous insulin requirements) much faster than he reverses their obesity (because the obesity isn't what causes insulin resistance, it's elevated levels of insulin). The obesity takes longer if and when it disappears. He treats them with individualized fasting protocols and dietary management aimed at lowering insulin levels and allowing the cells to regain sensitivity.
As far as the Kevin Hall Study you shared... yeah, I've seen it before.
Let's clarify the blatant misinformation presented here. Important points are as follows:
1. The Restricted carbohydrate (RC) and Restricted fat (RF) diets both led to weight loss, more weight was lost following the RC diet.
2. Fat mass change as measured by DXA revealed significant changes from baseline, but did not detect a significant difference between RF and RC diets.
3. This study lasted 2 weeks. There were 10 men and 9 women in the study.
4. Carbohydrate restriction was only to an average of 140 grams/day--hardly a ketogenic diet.
5. They calculated daily fat balance as the difference between fat intake and net fat oxidation (i.e., fat oxidation minus de novo lipogenesis) measured by indirect calorimetry while residing in a metabolic chamber--an invented (aka made up) parameter. This means numbers compared were (a) the fat intake from from RF group (7% of total calories) minus how much fat they oxidized (on a calorie deficient diet, of course they were oxidizing body fat) vs. (b) the fat intake from the RC group (49% of total calories--a much greater number) minus how much fat they oxidized--a difference that is accounted for more than 3 times in the intake.
So in summary, the only conclusion this study supported was that if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume! We already knew that!!! This study does NOT support the hypothesis that a low fat diet results in greater total fat burning than a high fat/low carbohydrate diet.
If you look at the hard data, the only statistically significant differences they found were - increased fat oxidation and increased weight loss in the high fat/low carb diet.
They also found decreased insulin, decreased triglycerides, and elevated HDL with the carbohydrate restricted diet - all known benefits! In short, if you make up new parameters to show the numbers you want and ignore hard data, you can make a study say what you want it to say.
The study supported that the insulin hypothesis is junk as touted be Gary Taubes and others. The fact that you dont have to restrict carbs to lose fat, is a clear indication of that. Additionally, while the RC group lost more weight, due to glycogen depletion, FFM was greater in the low fat group. The purpose of me linking this wasn't to discuss which was better, but rather dispell your constant insinuation that all things come down to insulin because a subset of people have issues with it, like diabetics.
You are touting Dr. Fungs hypotheses like they are supported by the rest of the community. If insulin caused obesity and cause diabetes, than almost every Asian person would have it. The blue zones are the healthiest and longest living place on earth and yet, they all dont it. If you look at the rest of the community, there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin. The NIH would allude to the fact that obesity (particularly belly fat) is one cause. Other causes would be physcial inactivity, other medical conditions, steroid use, some medications, older age, sleep problems, especially sleep apnea, and cigarette smoking.
Regarding your first point, you ignored the fact that they had greater fat oxidation, not the ridiculous "net fat oxidation." Of course, FFM was greater in RF since it includes extracellular fluids, which we all know drop on a low carb diet. The study was a miniscule 2 weeks, and the DEXA showed no significant difference between either diet. And let's be honest too about the diets: the RF diet was too low to be considered healthy, normal, or attainable by anyone in real life (7%) and the RC was way too high to be a ketogenic diet (140 g). Again, all the study proves is what I stated: if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume. Ground-breaking.
Regarding your Asian comment. It's already been addressed in this thread. We're are not talking about the carbohysrate-insulin hypothesis--we are not talking about Taubes either. Dr. Fung does a good job explaining why that is an incomplete and inaccurate picture: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
I disagree with you that I'm touting anything like anyone agrees or disgrees. I'm just sharing evidence. It means little to me what everyone else believes. I'm well aware that following mainstream nutritional advice would be very different from following Dr. Fung's. That's a shame. Actually, it's more than a shame when you understand the players involved and why change is not happening. You said yourself, "there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin." I assume you mean insulin secretion or resistance? Bottom line is, even you acknowledge that insulin plays an very important role in weight gain and weight loss. And that's what Dr. Fung tries to tease out. What drives insulin secretion? Yes, we all know sugar and refined carbs... also steroids, certian medications (like seroquel or other antidepressants), cortisol (stress hormones), snacking between meals and through the day, artificial sweetners, the list goes on. The point is: controlling insulin is a HUGE component to controlling weight. @psulemon
To clarify the bold, it was insulin resistance. It was a quote from the NIH. I would also like to point out, that you are sharing observation, rather than evidence by a research organization. I dont know that this guys is qualify to treat his patients because they all pretty much share the same subset of metabolic issues. In those cases, specific dietary restrictions have been noted for years. It's not rocket science that people with diabetes need to moderate their carbs... The issue I have is he completely disregards calories as a function of weight loss for anyone. Essentially, he doesn't believe in the law of thermodynamics, which is an issue. Because if calories weren't an issue, then those on low carb or keto diets wouldn't be able to gain weight or muscle? Or lose or spare what they wanted. He also doesn't address any other of the weight gain hormones. i
I recognize the calories are the driver of weight loss and gain. I do also recognize the hormones (not just insulin) can affect ones ability to lose weight, not because it would disprove CICO, but rather it can alter components of the equation. PCOS has some likes to reduction in resting metabolic rate, which would also affect non exercise activity thermogenesis (more efficient metabolic rate, means less calories burned doing daily activities). This in turn would lower your TDEE and make it more difficult to lose weight. And while I cannot confirm why that happens, since I haven't researched too much, but I would suspect that a person would have longer periods of lipogenesis from elevated BG or insulin, which in turn would reduce times in lipolysis. Having said that, i do recognize, that for as much as we do know, things will change over the years. My general problem these conversations is throwing out mainstream data just because its mainstream.
Lolz. "He doesn't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Nope, he just says that physics and physiology are two different sciences. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is never violated when a person goes on a calorie restricted diet, but can't easily access stored fat due to excess insulin--that's why BMR drops! The 2nd law of thermodynamics is true, but you can't use it to support a gross oversimplification like the CICO model. He's say it far better and funnier than I can, so I'll link his article: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
And no one is throwing out mainstream just "because it's mainstream." That's silly. I'm challenging the parts that are incorrect and actually harm people.
Things you don't believe aren't incorrect. And again, no excess insulin when you're in a deficit, and don't come with IR again, I already said TWICE that IR reduces insulin's effect so the higher amount in your blood does nothing and I don't care about saying it again.
Well, then by all means, please don't say it again. You aren't explaining yourself, and you have no evidence to share. Things you believe aren't correct by default. @stevencloser
You're the one who needs to start showing any evidence. The opinions of one person, even if they're allowed to put "Dr." in front of their name, are just that, opinion.
Yet again, you're talking about a fringe belief that goes against scientific consensus as if it's The One Truth (TM), and everything that goes against it is outdated, incorrect and harmful.
If you think insulin driving weight gain is a fringe belief, then why don't you try this study of n=1? Get yourself a bottle of regular insulin and inject a few units or so before meals and at bedtime. See how incredibly hungry you feel and how quickly you gain weight. See how much trouble you have losing it. Or just give yourself a daily dose of long-acting insulin if you want to save time. I think you'll very quickly and personally understand the causal relationship. I don't need a study to tell me what I've already seen over and over again (although plenty of studies confirm it as well). Insulin drives weight gain and insulin resistance. I've seen the patients who have to keep upping their doses just to overcome the growing resistance. Dr. Fung knows too because he's a practicing nephrologist who remained frustrated for years treating patients with conventional methods (that do nothing to lower insulin), watching them getter fatter and sicker with no improved outcomes. Thank goodness he knew how to think critically, research, and see past the confusion. More and more doctors are catching on because they care about actually healing people. Big Pharma won't be able to keep us in the dark indefinitely.
So because a small subset of people steuggle with excessive insulin production you believe it applies universally? Yep.. that makes complete sense. The majority of people can regate insulin.
Excessive insulin would prevent lipolysis from occurring. But its not the only hormone that is in play.
But its also a ridiculous argumentargument since you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin.5 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.
And many many obese people are not insulin resistance as demonstrated by the fact that 66% + of the US population is overweight or obese, but not all of them are diabetic.
There are several hormones to cause the body to store fat... insulin is only one of them.
@psulemon
@amusedmonkey states: "Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around." Not true, many normal weight or even thin people are insulin resistant or type 2 diabetics. Obesity doesn't cause IR, insulin does. Here's Dr. Fung's lecture if you want to check it out:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-toxicity-cure-type-2-diabetes/
It's important to note that he is a practicing physician who treats type 2 diabetes, effectively reversing their disease (getting them off medication and exogenous insulin requirements) much faster than he reverses their obesity (because the obesity isn't what causes insulin resistance, it's elevated levels of insulin). The obesity takes longer if and when it disappears. He treats them with individualized fasting protocols and dietary management aimed at lowering insulin levels and allowing the cells to regain sensitivity.
As far as the Kevin Hall Study you shared... yeah, I've seen it before.
Let's clarify the blatant misinformation presented here. Important points are as follows:
1. The Restricted carbohydrate (RC) and Restricted fat (RF) diets both led to weight loss, more weight was lost following the RC diet.
2. Fat mass change as measured by DXA revealed significant changes from baseline, but did not detect a significant difference between RF and RC diets.
3. This study lasted 2 weeks. There were 10 men and 9 women in the study.
4. Carbohydrate restriction was only to an average of 140 grams/day--hardly a ketogenic diet.
5. They calculated daily fat balance as the difference between fat intake and net fat oxidation (i.e., fat oxidation minus de novo lipogenesis) measured by indirect calorimetry while residing in a metabolic chamber--an invented (aka made up) parameter. This means numbers compared were (a) the fat intake from from RF group (7% of total calories) minus how much fat they oxidized (on a calorie deficient diet, of course they were oxidizing body fat) vs. (b) the fat intake from the RC group (49% of total calories--a much greater number) minus how much fat they oxidized--a difference that is accounted for more than 3 times in the intake.
So in summary, the only conclusion this study supported was that if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume! We already knew that!!! This study does NOT support the hypothesis that a low fat diet results in greater total fat burning than a high fat/low carbohydrate diet.
If you look at the hard data, the only statistically significant differences they found were - increased fat oxidation and increased weight loss in the high fat/low carb diet.
They also found decreased insulin, decreased triglycerides, and elevated HDL with the carbohydrate restricted diet - all known benefits! In short, if you make up new parameters to show the numbers you want and ignore hard data, you can make a study say what you want it to say.
The study supported that the insulin hypothesis is junk as touted be Gary Taubes and others. The fact that you dont have to restrict carbs to lose fat, is a clear indication of that. Additionally, while the RC group lost more weight, due to glycogen depletion, FFM was greater in the low fat group. The purpose of me linking this wasn't to discuss which was better, but rather dispell your constant insinuation that all things come down to insulin because a subset of people have issues with it, like diabetics.
You are touting Dr. Fungs hypotheses like they are supported by the rest of the community. If insulin caused obesity and cause diabetes, than almost every Asian person would have it. The blue zones are the healthiest and longest living place on earth and yet, they all dont it. If you look at the rest of the community, there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin. The NIH would allude to the fact that obesity (particularly belly fat) is one cause. Other causes would be physcial inactivity, other medical conditions, steroid use, some medications, older age, sleep problems, especially sleep apnea, and cigarette smoking.
Regarding your first point, you ignored the fact that they had greater fat oxidation, not the ridiculous "net fat oxidation." Of course, FFM was greater in RF since it includes extracellular fluids, which we all know drop on a low carb diet. The study was a miniscule 2 weeks, and the DEXA showed no significant difference between either diet. And let's be honest too about the diets: the RF diet was too low to be considered healthy, normal, or attainable by anyone in real life (7%) and the RC was way too high to be a ketogenic diet (140 g). Again, all the study proves is what I stated: if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume. Ground-breaking.
Regarding your Asian comment. It's already been addressed in this thread. We're are not talking about the carbohysrate-insulin hypothesis--we are not talking about Taubes either. Dr. Fung does a good job explaining why that is an incomplete and inaccurate picture: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
I disagree with you that I'm touting anything like anyone agrees or disgrees. I'm just sharing evidence. It means little to me what everyone else believes. I'm well aware that following mainstream nutritional advice would be very different from following Dr. Fung's. That's a shame. Actually, it's more than a shame when you understand the players involved and why change is not happening. You said yourself, "there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin." I assume you mean insulin secretion or resistance? Bottom line is, even you acknowledge that insulin plays an very important role in weight gain and weight loss. And that's what Dr. Fung tries to tease out. What drives insulin secretion? Yes, we all know sugar and refined carbs... also steroids, certian medications (like seroquel or other antidepressants), cortisol (stress hormones), snacking between meals and through the day, artificial sweetners, the list goes on. The point is: controlling insulin is a HUGE component to controlling weight. @psulemon
To clarify the bold, it was insulin resistance. It was a quote from the NIH. I would also like to point out, that you are sharing observation, rather than evidence by a research organization. I dont know that this guys is qualify to treat his patients because they all pretty much share the same subset of metabolic issues. In those cases, specific dietary restrictions have been noted for years. It's not rocket science that people with diabetes need to moderate their carbs... The issue I have is he completely disregards calories as a function of weight loss for anyone. Essentially, he doesn't believe in the law of thermodynamics, which is an issue. Because if calories weren't an issue, then those on low carb or keto diets wouldn't be able to gain weight or muscle? Or lose or spare what they wanted. He also doesn't address any other of the weight gain hormones. i
I recognize the calories are the driver of weight loss and gain. I do also recognize the hormones (not just insulin) can affect ones ability to lose weight, not because it would disprove CICO, but rather it can alter components of the equation. PCOS has some likes to reduction in resting metabolic rate, which would also affect non exercise activity thermogenesis (more efficient metabolic rate, means less calories burned doing daily activities). This in turn would lower your TDEE and make it more difficult to lose weight. And while I cannot confirm why that happens, since I haven't researched too much, but I would suspect that a person would have longer periods of lipogenesis from elevated BG or insulin, which in turn would reduce times in lipolysis. Having said that, i do recognize, that for as much as we do know, things will change over the years. My general problem these conversations is throwing out mainstream data just because its mainstream.
Lolz. "He doesn't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Nope, he just says that physics and physiology are two different sciences. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is never violated when a person goes on a calorie restricted diet, but can't easily access stored fat due to excess insulin--that's why BMR drops! The 2nd law of thermodynamics is true, but you can't use it to support a gross oversimplification like the CICO model. He's say it far better and funnier than I can, so I'll link his article: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
And no one is throwing out mainstream just "because it's mainstream." That's silly. I'm challenging the parts that are incorrect and actually harm people.
Things you don't believe aren't incorrect. And again, no excess insulin when you're in a deficit, and don't come with IR again, I already said TWICE that IR reduces insulin's effect so the higher amount in your blood does nothing and I don't care about saying it again.
Well, then by all means, please don't say it again. You aren't explaining yourself, and you have no evidence to share. Things you believe aren't correct by default. @stevencloser
You're the one who needs to start showing any evidence. The opinions of one person, even if they're allowed to put "Dr." in front of their name, are just that, opinion.
Yet again, you're talking about a fringe belief that goes against scientific consensus as if it's The One Truth (TM), and everything that goes against it is outdated, incorrect and harmful.
Big Pharma won't be able to keep us in the dark indefinitely.
0 -
The joys of insulin and blood sugar. Blargh. Being prediabetic, I have difficulty controlling my blood sugar levels. I am supposed to do it with diet only at this point. I normally do fine by paying attention to how I feel and eating a little snack the moment my sugar starts to dip, *but* if something goes wrong and my blood sugar crashes, it happens fast and leaves me pretty well debilitated. I have to carry glucose tablets everywhere. After a workout is prime time for a sugar crash, even though I prepare myself with a protein shake first. Losing weight while making sure your sugars never go too low is very challenging. Especially with complicating factors such as hypothyroidism and menopause (yup, yours truly has these also.)
Small, regular protein snacks are essential for blood sugar control when you have these conditions. Carbs, especially refined ones, must be eaten with protein and not alone or else sugar will peak then crash. Having trouble with processing the carbs makes weight gain easier from eating these foods. I often wonder how many people haven't been to their annual checkups or haven't had their fasting blood sugar evaluated, and are struggling with excess weight and with carbs because they have begun to experience impaired insulin secretion or sensitivity. It turns Calories Out into a minefield.4 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.
And many many obese people are not insulin resistance as demonstrated by the fact that 66% + of the US population is overweight or obese, but not all of them are diabetic.
There are several hormones to cause the body to store fat... insulin is only one of them.
@psulemon
@amusedmonkey states: "Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around." Not true, many normal weight or even thin people are insulin resistant or type 2 diabetics. Obesity doesn't cause IR, insulin does. Here's Dr. Fung's lecture if you want to check it out:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-toxicity-cure-type-2-diabetes/
It's important to note that he is a practicing physician who treats type 2 diabetes, effectively reversing their disease (getting them off medication and exogenous insulin requirements) much faster than he reverses their obesity (because the obesity isn't what causes insulin resistance, it's elevated levels of insulin). The obesity takes longer if and when it disappears. He treats them with individualized fasting protocols and dietary management aimed at lowering insulin levels and allowing the cells to regain sensitivity.
As far as the Kevin Hall Study you shared... yeah, I've seen it before.
Let's clarify the blatant misinformation presented here. Important points are as follows:
1. The Restricted carbohydrate (RC) and Restricted fat (RF) diets both led to weight loss, more weight was lost following the RC diet.
2. Fat mass change as measured by DXA revealed significant changes from baseline, but did not detect a significant difference between RF and RC diets.
3. This study lasted 2 weeks. There were 10 men and 9 women in the study.
4. Carbohydrate restriction was only to an average of 140 grams/day--hardly a ketogenic diet.
5. They calculated daily fat balance as the difference between fat intake and net fat oxidation (i.e., fat oxidation minus de novo lipogenesis) measured by indirect calorimetry while residing in a metabolic chamber--an invented (aka made up) parameter. This means numbers compared were (a) the fat intake from from RF group (7% of total calories) minus how much fat they oxidized (on a calorie deficient diet, of course they were oxidizing body fat) vs. (b) the fat intake from the RC group (49% of total calories--a much greater number) minus how much fat they oxidized--a difference that is accounted for more than 3 times in the intake.
So in summary, the only conclusion this study supported was that if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume! We already knew that!!! This study does NOT support the hypothesis that a low fat diet results in greater total fat burning than a high fat/low carbohydrate diet.
If you look at the hard data, the only statistically significant differences they found were - increased fat oxidation and increased weight loss in the high fat/low carb diet.
They also found decreased insulin, decreased triglycerides, and elevated HDL with the carbohydrate restricted diet - all known benefits! In short, if you make up new parameters to show the numbers you want and ignore hard data, you can make a study say what you want it to say.
The study supported that the insulin hypothesis is junk as touted be Gary Taubes and others. The fact that you dont have to restrict carbs to lose fat, is a clear indication of that. Additionally, while the RC group lost more weight, due to glycogen depletion, FFM was greater in the low fat group. The purpose of me linking this wasn't to discuss which was better, but rather dispell your constant insinuation that all things come down to insulin because a subset of people have issues with it, like diabetics.
You are touting Dr. Fungs hypotheses like they are supported by the rest of the community. If insulin caused obesity and cause diabetes, than almost every Asian person would have it. The blue zones are the healthiest and longest living place on earth and yet, they all dont it. If you look at the rest of the community, there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin. The NIH would allude to the fact that obesity (particularly belly fat) is one cause. Other causes would be physcial inactivity, other medical conditions, steroid use, some medications, older age, sleep problems, especially sleep apnea, and cigarette smoking.
Regarding your first point, you ignored the fact that they had greater fat oxidation, not the ridiculous "net fat oxidation." Of course, FFM was greater in RF since it includes extracellular fluids, which we all know drop on a low carb diet. The study was a miniscule 2 weeks, and the DEXA showed no significant difference between either diet. And let's be honest too about the diets: the RF diet was too low to be considered healthy, normal, or attainable by anyone in real life (7%) and the RC was way too high to be a ketogenic diet (140 g). Again, all the study proves is what I stated: if you eat a low fat calorie restricted diet, you burn more fat than you consume. Ground-breaking.
Regarding your Asian comment. It's already been addressed in this thread. We're are not talking about the carbohysrate-insulin hypothesis--we are not talking about Taubes either. Dr. Fung does a good job explaining why that is an incomplete and inaccurate picture: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
I disagree with you that I'm touting anything like anyone agrees or disgrees. I'm just sharing evidence. It means little to me what everyone else believes. I'm well aware that following mainstream nutritional advice would be very different from following Dr. Fung's. That's a shame. Actually, it's more than a shame when you understand the players involved and why change is not happening. You said yourself, "there still isn't enough conclusive evidences to know what causes insulin." I assume you mean insulin secretion or resistance? Bottom line is, even you acknowledge that insulin plays an very important role in weight gain and weight loss. And that's what Dr. Fung tries to tease out. What drives insulin secretion? Yes, we all know sugar and refined carbs... also steroids, certian medications (like seroquel or other antidepressants), cortisol (stress hormones), snacking between meals and through the day, artificial sweetners, the list goes on. The point is: controlling insulin is a HUGE component to controlling weight. @psulemon
To clarify the bold, it was insulin resistance. It was a quote from the NIH. I would also like to point out, that you are sharing observation, rather than evidence by a research organization. I dont know that this guys is qualify to treat his patients because they all pretty much share the same subset of metabolic issues. In those cases, specific dietary restrictions have been noted for years. It's not rocket science that people with diabetes need to moderate their carbs... The issue I have is he completely disregards calories as a function of weight loss for anyone. Essentially, he doesn't believe in the law of thermodynamics, which is an issue. Because if calories weren't an issue, then those on low carb or keto diets wouldn't be able to gain weight or muscle? Or lose or spare what they wanted. He also doesn't address any other of the weight gain hormones. i
I recognize the calories are the driver of weight loss and gain. I do also recognize the hormones (not just insulin) can affect ones ability to lose weight, not because it would disprove CICO, but rather it can alter components of the equation. PCOS has some likes to reduction in resting metabolic rate, which would also affect non exercise activity thermogenesis (more efficient metabolic rate, means less calories burned doing daily activities). This in turn would lower your TDEE and make it more difficult to lose weight. And while I cannot confirm why that happens, since I haven't researched too much, but I would suspect that a person would have longer periods of lipogenesis from elevated BG or insulin, which in turn would reduce times in lipolysis. Having said that, i do recognize, that for as much as we do know, things will change over the years. My general problem these conversations is throwing out mainstream data just because its mainstream.
Lolz. "He doesn't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Nope, he just says that physics and physiology are two different sciences. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is never violated when a person goes on a calorie restricted diet, but can't easily access stored fat due to excess insulin--that's why BMR drops! The 2nd law of thermodynamics is true, but you can't use it to support a gross oversimplification like the CICO model. He's say it far better and funnier than I can, so I'll link his article: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
And no one is throwing out mainstream just "because it's mainstream." That's silly. I'm challenging the parts that are incorrect and actually harm people.
Things you don't believe aren't incorrect. And again, no excess insulin when you're in a deficit, and don't come with IR again, I already said TWICE that IR reduces insulin's effect so the higher amount in your blood does nothing and I don't care about saying it again.
Well, then by all means, please don't say it again. You aren't explaining yourself, and you have no evidence to share. Things you believe aren't correct by default. @stevencloser
You're the one who needs to start showing any evidence. The opinions of one person, even if they're allowed to put "Dr." in front of their name, are just that, opinion.
Yet again, you're talking about a fringe belief that goes against scientific consensus as if it's The One Truth (TM), and everything that goes against it is outdated, incorrect and harmful.
If you think insulin driving weight gain is a fringe belief, then why don't you try this study of n=1? Get yourself a bottle of regular insulin and inject a few units or so before meals and at bedtime. See how incredibly hungry you feel and how quickly you gain weight. See how much trouble you have losing it. Or just give yourself a daily dose of long-acting insulin if you want to save time. I think you'll very quickly and personally understand the causal relationship. I don't need a study to tell me what I've already seen over and over again (although plenty of studies confirm it as well). Insulin drives weight gain and insulin resistance. I've seen the patients who have to keep upping their doses just to overcome the growing resistance. Dr. Fung knows too because he's a practicing nephrologist who remained frustrated for years treating patients with conventional methods (that do nothing to lower insulin), watching them getter fatter and sicker with no improved outcomes. Thank goodness he knew how to think critically, research, and see past the confusion. More and more doctors are catching on because they care about actually healing people. Big Pharma won't be able to keep us in the dark indefinitely.
So because a small subset of people steuggle with excessive insulin production you believe it applies universally? Yep.. that makes complete sense. The majority of people can regate insulin.
Excessive insulin would prevent lipolysis from occurring. But its not the only hormone that is in play.
But its also a ridiculous argumentargument since you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin.
Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.3 -
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Certain ailments are currently at high levels in the Western population. Insulin related disorders, allergies, Vitamin D deficiency from indoor lives, and many more. Things that are common in the population should be considered when thinking of ways for Joe and Jane Average from that population to make their lifestyles healthier. People who don't need to consider those factors can thank their lucky stars and move along.3
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Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
And as an N=1, I had a good friend in college who gained 40 lbs on atkins... because who can go wrong with fatty cuts of steak, unlimited hot dogs and so much more.
Also, lets not forget there are benefits to insulin... like stimulating muscle protein synthesis and promoting muscle growth.3 -
Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.
And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."0 -
Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.
And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."
Well when 27.8% of that 1/3 is undiagnosed (essentially 3x the confirmed number) you would need to know what are their assumptions. Last I recall, it was a survey of 100 people, but I could be a bit off.
And I am not pigeonholing. You are presenting observable data to support the claim that it violates CICO. There is no supporting scientific data outside of, "if you inject insulin into a person who doesn't have an issue, that it will cause weight gain". That doesn't support his hypothesis. And it fails just as much as Taubes's hypothesis.
And as an aside, non natural body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS and stimulate muscle growth.
<-- So not too surprised that overloading a person with insulin is going to cause weight gain. But that doesn't mean it's conclusive to support that insulin causes weight gain.3 -
Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.
And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."
Well when 27.8% of that 1/3 is undiagnosed (essentially 3x the confirmed number) you would need to know what are their assumptions. Last I recall, it was a survey of 100 people, but I could be a bit off.
And I am not pigeonholing. You are presenting observable data to support the claim that it violates CICO. There is no supporting scientific data outside of, "if you inject insulin into a person who doesn't have an issue, that it will cause weight gain". That doesn't support his hypothesis. And it fails just as much as Taubes's hypothesis.
And as an aside, non natural body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS and stimulate muscle growth.
<-- So not too surprised that overloading a person with insulin is going to cause weight gain. But that doesn't mean it's conclusive to support that insulin causes weight gain.
@psulemon
From one of the biggest manufacturers of insulin, Novo Nordisk. Even they don't deny what every clinician already knows: Insulin causes weight gain. Check out their super helpful tips:
Does Insulin Cause Weight Gain?
People who start insulin often put on weight,2 but the amount of weight gain differs from person to person.3 Some people don't put on any weight at all.
Weight Gain and Insulin
When you don't have enough insulin, extra blood sugar is removed from your body through your urine. Taking insulin helps your body to naturally store the extra sugar as fat, so you might put on weight even if you are eating the same amount of food as you did before. This is why it's important to stay active.
Another reason some people gain weight is that they snack more to avoid low blood sugar levels.
Avoiding Weight Gain with Insulin
Hear are some tips for minimizing weight gain:
Eat healthy
Be active
Monitor your weight and adjust your eating and exercise
Monitor your blood sugar so that you don't have to snack
Never skip an injection. Skipping your insulin won't help you lose weight, and it could cause you to have high blood glucose levels. And, don't try to adjust the dose of insulin on your own. Always talk to your diabetes care team if you have any concerns about your insulin does.
http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/medication/insulins/advance_insulin_understanding.html
Thank you, Novo Nordisk, for these "advanced insulin understandings." [I did not fix their typos].0 -
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/diabetes/in-depth/insulin-and-weight-gain/art-20047836Weight gain is a common side effect for people who take insulin — a hormone that regulates the absorption of sugar (glucose) by cells. However, controlling your weight is not only possible, but also an important part of your overall diabetes management plan.
The link between insulin and weight gain
When you take insulin, glucose is able to enter your cells, and glucose levels in your blood drop. This is the desired therapeutic goal. But if you take in more calories than you need to maintain a healthy weight — given your level of activity — your cells will get more glucose than they need. Glucose that your cells don't use accumulates as fat.
http://www.healthline.com/health/diabetes/tips-for-managing-insulin-weight-gain#HowItWorks2Diabetes can cause you to have too much glucose in your bloodstream (blood sugar). If you are not absorbing sugar into your cells, your body will depend on fat for energy, and this can cause weight loss. Also, if your blood sugar is high, your body may allow glucose to go out in the urine, increasing the amount of fluid that is lost from the body. This can cause you to become dehydrated, which may make you feel thinner.
When you begin taking insulin, glucose can be absorbed by the cells and used for energy. This helps blood sugars to go down and helps avoid all of the complications of diabetes, but it can make you gain weight if you eat more than you burn in a day.
http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/content/25/1/39Myth: Insulin causes weight gain.
Fact: It is true that many patients who begin insulin gain weight. Insulin helps your body use food more efficiently. If this is a concern, ask for a referral to a dietitian before you start insulin.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/medical-reasons-for-putting-on-weight.aspxWeight gain is a common side effect for people who take insulin to manage their diabetes. Insulin helps to control your blood sugar level. It’s not uncommon for people with longstanding diabetes to eat a diet that "matches" their insulin dose, which can mean they’re eating more than they need to in order to prevent low blood sugar – also known as hypoglycaemia or "hypo" – from developing.
“Excessive snacking to prevent a hypo contributes to an excessive calorie intake and overall weight gain,” says Collins, who recommends becoming an "expert patient" by attending a diabetes education course such as DESMOND for people with type 2 diabetes or DAFNE for type 1 diabetes, to help make your diabetes fit your lifestyle – not the other way round.1 -
I also can't help but share all their detailed nutrition advice. (It's just your basic low fat, calorie-restricted, CICO-based approach, which has been tried-and-proven-false for decades.) Oh! And they also say make sure you space your eating throughout the day (so you can keep stimulating your insulin response) and don't skip meals (i.e., intermittent fasting is a horrible idea).
Healthy tips
Healthy eating isn't that tough. It's all about eating balanced portions and a wide variety. You don't have to change everything at once. Just keep making small changes over time.
Eat a wide variety of healthy foods
Balance the number of calories you eat with your activity level
Choose foods rich in whole grains, vegetables, fruits and fat-free/low-fat milk products
Eat lean meats (such as poultry and fish) and beans for protein
Limit your intake of saturated fats, trans fats and cholesterol
Limit your intake of salt
Cut down on added sugars - that includes regular soft drinks which are high in calories
Keep to sensible amounts of alcohol
Have a proper breakfast every morning to stimulate your metabolism
Space your eating throughout the day
Don't skip meals
Try picking a few small changes that are important to you. Pick ones you feel confident that you can achieve and focus on those.
As you make these changes a part of the normal way you eat, you'll find that you're ready to take on something new.
Don't expect to be perfect - it's nearly impossible to eat right all of the time. It's okay to have a treat every now and then as long you stay motivated and on track most of the time.
http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/diet/healthyTips.html
But I'm sure we can trust nutrition advice from an insulin company--no conflicts of interest there, right? I do commend them for saying avoid added sugars, but the reason behind it is simply because they are "empty calories." Smh. And lumping trans fats with saturated fats? A very smooth move there.0 -
You guys are intense.3
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Except me, I'm here for the fun4
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