Obesity Journal study: It's not just CICO

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Replies

  • KetoneKaren
    KetoneKaren Posts: 6,412 Member
    @ninerbuff I am a little jealous of two of my work colleagues who are vegetarians & who eat only whole foods (except for dark chocolate LOL!). They LOVE their way of eating, have done it for years, and both seem to me to be enjoying optimal health. Of course they have active lifestyles and good sleep hygiene, etc. also, but their food plans are stellar. I could not sustain that...so I just try to make the healthiest food choices I can from the foods that I like, and have treats from time to time. This time around I am losing a little more slowly than when I severely restricted calories under a medically supervised plan 3 years ago, but it feels sustainable; I am not holding my breath waiting for it to be over. I naturally tend to choose a lower carb diet, so I have taken advantage of that tendency and balance my macros accordingly. I have almost effortlessly lost 13lbs since April eating foods I like. Yay!
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    edited June 2016
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »

    Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.

    "you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.

    Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.

    http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html


    You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.

    No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.

    And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."

    Once you consider NAFLD, PCOS and Alzheimer's, along with people who have prediabetes and T2D, whether they realize it or not, those with IR is closer to 50%.
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    What I don't understand is why people quibble with other people who are successfully making adaptations in their diets that benefit them and do no harm?
    Because "short term" success doesn't usually lead to long term lifestyle change?
    There are lots of people who engage in low carb dieting to lose weight, but unsuccessful maintain it because they couldn't adapt to it long term.
    I'm one of those trainers that don't believe in dieting, doesn't believe in "clean eating", and directly deal with people on an everyday basis of implementing weight loss and fitness. In the beginning, I was taught the "clean eating" and low carb, regimens to advise to my clients. Did they lose weight? Sure. But a few months later, I'd see them again with weight regained. So could that be harm? Psychologically I guess it could be. Getting down to a certain weight, then regaining could easily give the person a sense of failure and conceding that it's too hard to stay lean, so why even bother.
    There are some ways that work better for others, but the reality is CICO is the gist of weight loss/gain/maintenance regardless of how it's approached.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    As you know, the bolded is true of all diets. It has to be maintainable.

    I eat LCHF. The first 4-5 months I lost weight while doing it. The last 7-8 months I have maintained while doing it. I don't consider it a "diet" but just the way I eat for improved health.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited June 2016
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »

    Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.

    "you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.

    Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.

    http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html


    You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.

    No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.

    And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."

    Once you consider NAFLD, PCOS and Alzheimer's, along with people who have prediabetes and T2D, whether they realize it or not, those with IR is closer to 50%.
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    What I don't understand is why people quibble with other people who are successfully making adaptations in their diets that benefit them and do no harm?
    Because "short term" success doesn't usually lead to long term lifestyle change?
    There are lots of people who engage in low carb dieting to lose weight, but unsuccessful maintain it because they couldn't adapt to it long term.
    I'm one of those trainers that don't believe in dieting, doesn't believe in "clean eating", and directly deal with people on an everyday basis of implementing weight loss and fitness. In the beginning, I was taught the "clean eating" and low carb, regimens to advise to my clients. Did they lose weight? Sure. But a few months later, I'd see them again with weight regained. So could that be harm? Psychologically I guess it could be. Getting down to a certain weight, then regaining could easily give the person a sense of failure and conceding that it's too hard to stay lean, so why even bother.
    There are some ways that work better for others, but the reality is CICO is the gist of weight loss/gain/maintenance regardless of how it's approached.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    As you know, the bolded is true of all diets. It has to be maintainable.

    I eat LCHF. The first 4-5 months I lost weight while doing it. The last 7-8 months I have maintained while doing it. I don't consider it a "diet" but just the way I eat for improved health.

    I lost weight initially on high carb low fat. Now I'm maintaining with low glycemic. But I'm very interested to try high fat low carb at least to lose a few more pounds. People do seem to get results. I failed at Atkins and South Beach diets though after about 3 weeks, so I don't know if I can sustain without researching more.
  • JaneSnowe
    JaneSnowe Posts: 1,283 Member
    Kaitou wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    ri0dv7omaa79.jpeg

    And yet those of us without enough money are just left to die. But those of us with untreated health problems aren't supposed to hate Big Pharma for pricing us out of medicine?

    There is no "forgetting". Doing some good doesn't erase your sins. And researching medicine to sell to people for $1000 a month or more doesn't make you a force of good that should be above being hated. People die in the U.S because they can't afford the medical treatments they need.

    Maybe reflect on that before you post your next "huurrr look at the dumb millennials/liberals hating Big Pharma!" meme.

    Your government also is partly to blame for high prices. You are free to hate it as well.

    Oh, and don't forget, Big Pharma came up because one poster believes it is keeping us in the dark. So which is it? Are the medicines necessary, or are people being kept in the dark about something better? Can't have it both ways.
  • JaneSnowe
    JaneSnowe Posts: 1,283 Member
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    Big Pharma is why I can get out of bed!

    I'm sure there are people who will hate Big Pharma because of that. >:)
  • KetoneKaren
    KetoneKaren Posts: 6,412 Member
    @DebSozo My brain seems to function better when it has enough fat. Low fat makes my hair & nails brittle and for some reason makes me stupid :s so I eat more fat & more protein and fewer carbs. That's what I like & feel best on.
  • Galadrial60
    Galadrial60 Posts: 19 Member
    Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.
  • lithezebra
    lithezebra Posts: 3,670 Member
    TR0berts wrote: »
    Wait - you mean what they do on Biggest Loser is stupid?

    No kidding.


    Really - that's all that is. Excessive Calorie deficits for prolonged periods of time may temporarily decrease metabolic rates.

    "Temporarily" is the operative word!
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    JaneSnowe wrote: »
    Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.

    So you have a group of people of different heights, weights, ages, and of both sexes... you feed them all the same portions, and you are surprised that they don't all have the same BMI?

    Metabolism is definitely a thing, but for people to lose weight you must match their calories with their individual caloric needs.

    What article did you find fascinating? There have been many linked here. Just curious which one you are referring to.

    To add to that, I don't know what kind of special needs setting it is, but unless they never leave on their own and never get visited by anyone, "no access to food unless we serve it" cannot be guaranteed.
  • snikkins
    snikkins Posts: 1,282 Member
    Kait_Dee wrote: »
    You guys are intense.

    I know right! And all very convincing and articulate debaters :smile:

    That's funny, because I'm seeing one side as not very convincing at all. Zero evidence and a lot of assumptions? Yeah, not convincing even remotely.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    JaneSnowe wrote: »
    Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.

    So you have a group of people of different heights, weights, ages, and of both sexes... you feed them all the same portions, and you are surprised that they don't all have the same BMI?

    Metabolism is definitely a thing, but for people to lose weight you must match their calories with their individual caloric needs.

    What article did you find fascinating? There have been many linked here. Just curious which one you are referring to.

    She is probably referring to the obesity study with the Greatest Loser folks.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    New York Times story details that a study of Biggest Loser contestants found they regained much of the weight they lost and ruined their metabolism -- all had metabolisms that burned much less than a person their weight should have been burning.

    So, OK, it is CICO, but if you're overweight and trying to lose weight, it may mean that your calories in is a lot lower than your calculated BMR or TDEE. So the question is, how do we get our BMR really tested....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

    This study debunks the popular myth that metabolism isn't slowed by dieting.
  • kelleybean1
    kelleybean1 Posts: 312 Member
    Was any testing done on the contestants BEFORE they started the BIggest Loser? Could be they had slower than normal metabolisms to begin with which would partially explain their weight problems.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    Was any testing done on the contestants BEFORE they started the BIggest Loser? Could be they had slower than normal metabolisms to begin with which would partially explain their weight problems.

    They were tested beforehand and their metabolisms were normal.
  • Crisseyda
    Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
    edited June 2016
    psulemon wrote: »
    Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.

    NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.

    Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.

    Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
    The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?

    That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.

    @psulemon
  • Crisseyda
    Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
    edited June 2016
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »

    Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.

    "you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.

    Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.

    http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html


    You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.

    No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.

    And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."

    Well when 27.8% of that 1/3 is undiagnosed (essentially 3x the confirmed number) you would need to know what are their assumptions. Last I recall, it was a survey of 100 people, but I could be a bit off.

    And I am not pigeonholing. You are presenting observable data to support the claim that it violates CICO. There is no supporting scientific data outside of, "if you inject insulin into a person who doesn't have an issue, that it will cause weight gain". That doesn't support his hypothesis. And it fails just as much as Taubes's hypothesis.

    And as an aside, non natural body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS and stimulate muscle growth.

    <-- So not too surprised that overloading a person with insulin is going to cause weight gain. But that doesn't mean it's conclusive to support that insulin causes weight gain.

    @psulemon

    From one of the biggest manufacturers of insulin, Novo Nordisk. Even they don't deny what every clinician already knows: Insulin causes weight gain. Check out their super helpful tips:

    Does Insulin Cause Weight Gain?
    People who start insulin often put on weight,2 but the amount of weight gain differs from person to person.3 Some people don't put on any weight at all.

    Weight Gain and Insulin
    When you don't have enough insulin, extra blood sugar is removed from your body through your urine. Taking insulin helps your body to naturally store the extra sugar as fat, so you might put on weight even if you are eating the same amount of food as you did before. This is why it's important to stay active.
    Another reason some people gain weight is that they snack more to avoid low blood sugar levels.

    Avoiding Weight Gain with Insulin
    Hear are some tips for minimizing weight gain:

    Eat healthy
    Be active
    Monitor your weight and adjust your eating and exercise
    Monitor your blood sugar so that you don't have to snack
    Never skip an injection. Skipping your insulin won't help you lose weight, and it could cause you to have high blood glucose levels. And, don't try to adjust the dose of insulin on your own. Always talk to your diabetes care team if you have any concerns about your insulin does.

    http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/medication/insulins/advance_insulin_understanding.html

    Thank you, Novo Nordisk, for these "advanced insulin understandings." [I did not fix their typos].

    Believes the insulin company when it supports her views
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    I also can't help but share all their detailed nutrition advice. (It's just your basic low fat, calorie-restricted, CICO-based approach, which has been tried-and-proven-false for decades.) Oh! And they also say make sure you space your eating throughout the day (so you can keep stimulating your insulin response) and don't skip meals (i.e., intermittent fasting is a horrible idea).

    Healthy tips

    Healthy eating isn't that tough. It's all about eating balanced portions and a wide variety. You don't have to change everything at once. Just keep making small changes over time.

    Eat a wide variety of healthy foods
    Balance the number of calories you eat with your activity level
    Choose foods rich in whole grains, vegetables, fruits and fat-free/low-fat milk products
    Eat lean meats (such as poultry and fish) and beans for protein
    Limit your intake of saturated fats, trans fats and cholesterol
    Limit your intake of salt
    Cut down on added sugars - that includes regular soft drinks which are high in calories
    Keep to sensible amounts of alcohol
    Have a proper breakfast every morning to stimulate your metabolism
    Space your eating throughout the day
    Don't skip meals

    Try picking a few small changes that are important to you. Pick ones you feel confident that you can achieve and focus on those.

    As you make these changes a part of the normal way you eat, you'll find that you're ready to take on something new.

    Don't expect to be perfect - it's nearly impossible to eat right all of the time. It's okay to have a treat every now and then as long you stay motivated and on track most of the time.


    http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/diet/healthyTips.html

    But I'm sure we can trust nutrition advice from an insulin company--no conflicts of interest there, right? I do commend them for saying avoid added sugars, but the reason behind it is simply because they are "empty calories." Smh. And lumping trans fats with saturated fats? A very smooth move there.

    Bur when the company conflicts with her dogma?


    Can you say cognitive dissonance?

    @FunkyTobias
    I think you missed my sarcasm in calling them "super helpful" tips--by which I meant "not helpful in the least." Both sections from the site are mostly BS, IMO.
  • missh1967
    missh1967 Posts: 661 Member
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?

    LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    New York Times story details that a study of Biggest Loser contestants found they regained much of the weight they lost and ruined their metabolism -- all had metabolisms that burned much less than a person their weight should have been burning.

    So, OK, it is CICO, but if you're overweight and trying to lose weight, it may mean that your calories in is a lot lower than your calculated BMR or TDEE. So the question is, how do we get our BMR really tested....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

    This study debunks the popular myth that metabolism isn't slowed by dieting.

    For people who ate an aggressively low number of calories while doing an aggressively high amount of exercise for an extended period of time, yes. Not the conditions the average person diets under.

    My body fights to put back weight and I have never eaten aggressively lower than 1200 calories while exercising for an extended time. I'm happy you don't experience this. I struggle to lose pounds and my body seriously wants to put them back as soon as I go back to maintenance mode. It is a battle! Now I actively diet just to stay at maintenance weight, so I feel like I am always dieting. My Body Used To Work INTUITUVELY to maintain. Now I must force it to maintain at my new and lower weight.
  • Crisseyda
    Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
    edited June 2016
    missh1967 wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?

    LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.

    You better believe it! XD
  • Crisseyda
    Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
    edited June 2016
    So, what of the things are BS IYO? Eating amounts of food according to your activity level?
    A varied diet of healthy foods?
    Lots of vegetables and fruit?
    Limiting trans fats and sat fats?
    Not too much salt?
    Reducing added sugars?
    Sensible amounts of alcohol?
    Making sustainable changes?

    Man, just look at all that crap.

    It's funny how you left out certian items that even you know are indefensible garbage.
  • Crisseyda
    Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
    edited June 2016
    missh1967 wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    missh1967 wrote: »
    Crisseyda wrote: »
    The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?

    LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.

    You better believe it! XD

    My point is that you're laying a whole lotta s.h.i.t. at the feet of "big pharma," but as a nurse, I can tell you that so many people can't lay off the damn ice cream and chips and incorporate a friggin' salad every so often to drop some tonnage and reverse or at least diminish some of their health problems. You are outside your mind if you think those companies are fostering disease. They just happen to be profiting because fat bas.tards can't shut their pie holes.

    Job security.

    Yup, I'm a nurse too. I see you've bought into the same lie as many other healthcare professionals: blame the patient.

    I'm past that now, but I understand. I used to have the same damning perspective.

    EDIT: in case anyone was wondering, this person poignantly expresses exactly how most doctors and nurses judge you for being sick and obese.
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