Obesity Journal study: It's not just CICO
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Because "short term" success doesn't usually lead to long term lifestyle change?What I don't understand is why people quibble with other people who are successfully making adaptations in their diets that benefit them and do no harm?
There are lots of people who engage in low carb dieting to lose weight, but unsuccessful maintain it because they couldn't adapt to it long term.
I'm one of those trainers that don't believe in dieting, doesn't believe in "clean eating", and directly deal with people on an everyday basis of implementing weight loss and fitness. In the beginning, I was taught the "clean eating" and low carb, regimens to advise to my clients. Did they lose weight? Sure. But a few months later, I'd see them again with weight regained. So could that be harm? Psychologically I guess it could be. Getting down to a certain weight, then regaining could easily give the person a sense of failure and conceding that it's too hard to stay lean, so why even bother.
There are some ways that work better for others, but the reality is CICO is the gist of weight loss/gain/maintenance regardless of how it's approached.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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@ninerbuff I am a little jealous of two of my work colleagues who are vegetarians & who eat only whole foods (except for dark chocolate LOL!). They LOVE their way of eating, have done it for years, and both seem to me to be enjoying optimal health. Of course they have active lifestyles and good sleep hygiene, etc. also, but their food plans are stellar. I could not sustain that...so I just try to make the healthiest food choices I can from the foods that I like, and have treats from time to time. This time around I am losing a little more slowly than when I severely restricted calories under a medically supervised plan 3 years ago, but it feels sustainable; I am not holding my breath waiting for it to be over. I naturally tend to choose a lower carb diet, so I have taken advantage of that tendency and balance my macros accordingly. I have almost effortlessly lost 13lbs since April eating foods I like. Yay!0
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Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.
And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."
Once you consider NAFLD, PCOS and Alzheimer's, along with people who have prediabetes and T2D, whether they realize it or not, those with IR is closer to 50%.
Because "short term" success doesn't usually lead to long term lifestyle change?What I don't understand is why people quibble with other people who are successfully making adaptations in their diets that benefit them and do no harm?
There are lots of people who engage in low carb dieting to lose weight, but unsuccessful maintain it because they couldn't adapt to it long term.
I'm one of those trainers that don't believe in dieting, doesn't believe in "clean eating", and directly deal with people on an everyday basis of implementing weight loss and fitness. In the beginning, I was taught the "clean eating" and low carb, regimens to advise to my clients. Did they lose weight? Sure. But a few months later, I'd see them again with weight regained. So could that be harm? Psychologically I guess it could be. Getting down to a certain weight, then regaining could easily give the person a sense of failure and conceding that it's too hard to stay lean, so why even bother.
There are some ways that work better for others, but the reality is CICO is the gist of weight loss/gain/maintenance regardless of how it's approached.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
As you know, the bolded is true of all diets. It has to be maintainable.
I eat LCHF. The first 4-5 months I lost weight while doing it. The last 7-8 months I have maintained while doing it. I don't consider it a "diet" but just the way I eat for improved health.2 -
Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.
And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."
Once you consider NAFLD, PCOS and Alzheimer's, along with people who have prediabetes and T2D, whether they realize it or not, those with IR is closer to 50%.
Because "short term" success doesn't usually lead to long term lifestyle change?What I don't understand is why people quibble with other people who are successfully making adaptations in their diets that benefit them and do no harm?
There are lots of people who engage in low carb dieting to lose weight, but unsuccessful maintain it because they couldn't adapt to it long term.
I'm one of those trainers that don't believe in dieting, doesn't believe in "clean eating", and directly deal with people on an everyday basis of implementing weight loss and fitness. In the beginning, I was taught the "clean eating" and low carb, regimens to advise to my clients. Did they lose weight? Sure. But a few months later, I'd see them again with weight regained. So could that be harm? Psychologically I guess it could be. Getting down to a certain weight, then regaining could easily give the person a sense of failure and conceding that it's too hard to stay lean, so why even bother.
There are some ways that work better for others, but the reality is CICO is the gist of weight loss/gain/maintenance regardless of how it's approached.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
As you know, the bolded is true of all diets. It has to be maintainable.
I eat LCHF. The first 4-5 months I lost weight while doing it. The last 7-8 months I have maintained while doing it. I don't consider it a "diet" but just the way I eat for improved health.
I lost weight initially on high carb low fat. Now I'm maintaining with low glycemic. But I'm very interested to try high fat low carb at least to lose a few more pounds. People do seem to get results. I failed at Atkins and South Beach diets though after about 3 weeks, so I don't know if I can sustain without researching more.1 -
queenliz99 wrote: »
And yet those of us without enough money are just left to die. But those of us with untreated health problems aren't supposed to hate Big Pharma for pricing us out of medicine?
There is no "forgetting". Doing some good doesn't erase your sins. And researching medicine to sell to people for $1000 a month or more doesn't make you a force of good that should be above being hated. People die in the U.S because they can't afford the medical treatments they need.
Maybe reflect on that before you post your next "huurrr look at the dumb millennials/liberals hating Big Pharma!" meme.
Your government also is partly to blame for high prices. You are free to hate it as well.
Oh, and don't forget, Big Pharma came up because one poster believes it is keeping us in the dark. So which is it? Are the medicines necessary, or are people being kept in the dark about something better? Can't have it both ways.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »Big Pharma is why I can get out of bed!
I'm sure there are people who will hate Big Pharma because of that.
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@DebSozo My brain seems to function better when it has enough fat. Low fat makes my hair & nails brittle and for some reason makes me stupid
so I eat more fat & more protein and fewer carbs. That's what I like & feel best on. 2 -
Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.0
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Galadrial60 wrote: »Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.
I think this ^^ is the main source of misunderstanding.
Everyone KNOWS metabolism is real. Metabolism is the CO part of the CICO equation.
You don't burn as much as the average person your height/weight. Yes, you need to eat less.
Maybe if people didn't start cutting until they logged and determined what their actual calorie requirements were, and then started their calorie deficit from there, it would stop a lot of these threads.10 -
annaskiski wrote: »Galadrial60 wrote: »Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.
I think this ^^ is the main source of misunderstanding.
Everyone KNOWS metabolism is real. Metabolism is the CO part of the CICO equation.
You don't burn as much as the average person your height/weight. Yes, you need to eat less.
Maybe if people didn't start cutting until they logged and determined what their actual calorie requirements were, and then started their calorie deficit from there, it would stop a lot of these threads.
It wouldn't because there'd still be people swearing they're eating 5 calories per day and gaining.10 -
It is important to change for the better what we are able to change while we still can. I don't know where that tipping point will be in my life. I think that people realize that losing weight and becoming more active does reduce a lot of health and medical problems which is why most of us are attempting to lose weight utilizing MFP tools.
What I don't understand is why people quibble with other people who are successfully making adaptations in their diets that benefit them and do no harm?
In general, the quibble happens when said person suggests that their successful adaptation is the best, that everyone should eat that way, that medical organizations and governments should change their recommendations, and that anyone who doesn't follow this diet pattern is not intelligent enough to understand that they should.
If OP has had positive results eating in this way, that's awesome and I can understand why she's passionate about it. If you want to try it, go for it! No one is saying not to. But it's not the cure-all best way holy grail way of eating for everyone.
As someone else mentioned, the Blue Zones are a compelling counter-argument. The one thing they all have in common is active lifestyles, but diet-wise they all tend to be plant-based, low or moderate fat and high or moderate carb.
It is for sure important to always try to get better and make positive changes in our lifestyle, so if you think LCHF will help you with that then give it a shot. There are lots of folks here who eat that way and I bet would be happy to help you with it
. The argument here is over the OP's claims that this way of eating over-rules CICO and that it should be accepted as the official standard for good health. 6 -
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Galadrial60 wrote: »Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.
So you have a group of people of different heights, weights, ages, and of both sexes... you feed them all the same portions, and you are surprised that they don't all have the same BMI?
Metabolism is definitely a thing, but for people to lose weight you must match their calories with their individual caloric needs.
What article did you find fascinating? There have been many linked here. Just curious which one you are referring to.7 -
Galadrial60 wrote: »Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.
So you have a group of people of different heights, weights, ages, and of both sexes... you feed them all the same portions, and you are surprised that they don't all have the same BMI?
Metabolism is definitely a thing, but for people to lose weight you must match their calories with their individual caloric needs.
What article did you find fascinating? There have been many linked here. Just curious which one you are referring to.
To add to that, I don't know what kind of special needs setting it is, but unless they never leave on their own and never get visited by anyone, "no access to food unless we serve it" cannot be guaranteed.4 -
Christine_72 wrote: »
That's funny, because I'm seeing one side as not very convincing at all. Zero evidence and a lot of assumptions? Yeah, not convincing even remotely.4 -
Galadrial60 wrote: »Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.
So you have a group of people of different heights, weights, ages, and of both sexes... you feed them all the same portions, and you are surprised that they don't all have the same BMI?
Metabolism is definitely a thing, but for people to lose weight you must match their calories with their individual caloric needs.
What article did you find fascinating? There have been many linked here. Just curious which one you are referring to.
She is probably referring to the obesity study with the Greatest Loser folks.2 -
NotSoPerfectPam wrote: »New York Times story details that a study of Biggest Loser contestants found they regained much of the weight they lost and ruined their metabolism -- all had metabolisms that burned much less than a person their weight should have been burning.
So, OK, it is CICO, but if you're overweight and trying to lose weight, it may mean that your calories in is a lot lower than your calculated BMR or TDEE. So the question is, how do we get our BMR really tested....
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
This study debunks the popular myth that metabolism isn't slowed by dieting.0 -
Was any testing done on the contestants BEFORE they started the BIggest Loser? Could be they had slower than normal metabolisms to begin with which would partially explain their weight problems.
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kelleybean1 wrote: »Was any testing done on the contestants BEFORE they started the BIggest Loser? Could be they had slower than normal metabolisms to begin with which would partially explain their weight problems.
They were tested beforehand and their metabolisms were normal.0 -
NotSoPerfectPam wrote: »New York Times story details that a study of Biggest Loser contestants found they regained much of the weight they lost and ruined their metabolism -- all had metabolisms that burned much less than a person their weight should have been burning.
So, OK, it is CICO, but if you're overweight and trying to lose weight, it may mean that your calories in is a lot lower than your calculated BMR or TDEE. So the question is, how do we get our BMR really tested....
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
This study debunks the popular myth that metabolism isn't slowed by dieting.
For people who ate an aggressively low number of calories while doing an aggressively high amount of exercise for an extended period of time, yes. Not the conditions the average person diets under.5
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